The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:




TimberKing Sawmills




Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Forest Products Industry Insurance


Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades


Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA


Council Tool

Baker Products

Forestry Forum Tool Box

Author Topic: Demands on Water  (Read 6249 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ron Scott

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7704
  • Age: 82
  • Location: Cadillac, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Ron Scotts Web
Demands on Water
« on: June 25, 2001, 02:00:05 pm »
As the state of Michigan considers granting a permit to Perrier-a foreign corporation-to withdrawal, bottle, and sell Great Lakes ground water, perhaps it's wise to be mindful of the situations affecting other water supplies throughout the nation.

Water tables are dropping 30 feet a year in some western regions. Beneath Denver and its south suburbs, water levels are dropping by as much as 30 feet a year.

With a two-year drought and an untamed energy crisis in the West, the underground water supply for Spokane and Coeurd'Alene is under siege.

As Reported by the Denver Post.
~Ron

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13307
  • Age: 69
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2001, 05:49:39 pm »
I thought I saw a report on TV that Perrier was trying to farm water in Wisconsin.

There is a pretty big disparity in rainfall from the West to the Midwest.  All those towns with falling water tables are in areas that have limited rainfall.

That doesn't mean that a water farm wouldn't affect your local watertables.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline L. Wakefield

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Hollis Maine
  • Gender: Female
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2001, 06:22:21 pm »
   Poland Spring just opened a plant in my town 2 years ago. The aquifer they were planning to use lay under an area that had been used for potato farming. By regs, they had to wait a year before taking any water for processing and sales. They have kept busy- and we've seen lots of road construction. It will indeed be interesting to see waht happens to the water table, and to the nearby fishing areas with this change. Some are already off limits, but my husband has fished them all previously from every approach- so I will hear about the near surround as the consequences of production unfold. They closed a very nice trout farm which had used the springs for an ideal place to grow the fish. Shipped them all over.  The ones in the pond were very sophisticated fish- they'd seen a lot of flies. They had a very ho-hum attitude toward artificials. Used to drive my husband crazy. I forget who used to show up there to fish- Ellis Hatch or someone- could make those fish do about whatever he wanted. Mike would come home muttering.   lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Offline Ron Scott

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7704
  • Age: 82
  • Location: Cadillac, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Ron Scotts Web
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2001, 07:04:02 pm »
Yes they are wanting to farm water in Wisconsin, but last I heard it was denied, at least so far. So have come to Michigan.
~Ron

Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4055
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Calculator Index
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2001, 08:21:11 pm »
We were in WI last year as that was going on. They got preliminary approval from DNR to use a spring near the Dells I think. When we left the local uproar had about squashed it.

At home we had a bottled water co. open up in the late 80's and was an asset to the local economy. Our part of the blue ridge has an abundance of good water(boy am I missing it). The plant was employing local folks in a depressed area,not depleting, not polluting.In fact helped raise the alarm when a med waste incineration co. was eying us. I was sorry to see them go. Look at all sides, they can be a good industry to have if all parties understand whats involved.Yes a big outfit would raise my eyelids but with proper controls they can be an asset.

Offline CHARLIE

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3217
  • Age: 73
  • Location: New Richmond, Wisconsin 54017
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't wait 'til both feet are in hot water before you decide to put your best foot forward.
    • Coulee Region Woodturners
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2001, 11:28:51 am »
It puzzles me why people would buy bottled water except in special cases. Tap water is just as good and a heckuvalot cheaper. Actually, I hear that some bottled water is just tap water. There is a bottled water called Evian. What is Evian spelled backwards? Give  up? OK, I'll tell you, it spells "Naive" which Webster says is deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgement. Maybe thats when someone pays over $1 or 2 for water that should cost less than a plug nickel.

That aquafer under Nebraska/Colorado is one of the biggest, maybe the biggest in the U.S. if not the world. But you drive through there and look at all the irragation sprinkler systems. Several on every farm. In fact, the crops grow in the same circle that the irragation sprinker travels. I doubt the crops would grow without them. Anyway, that is sucking lots and lots of water out of that aquafer. How long can that last? Probably won't know until they start sucking air.    :-/
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4055
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Calculator Index
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2001, 09:04:55 pm »
I agree,look at the Platte in midsummer,just mud and a trickle.But the west and east are different. As we travel around the country it amazes me how much bad water is out there. The well here that we have been on for 8 weeks just tested high in nitrates. We had one homeowner went to put a cigarette out under the tap and it exploded,natural gas.Spent the winter trying to undo last seasons high iron in the motorhome. Water is a commodity the more we ignore this the faster its value will increase.

Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4055
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Calculator Index
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2001, 08:35:02 pm »
Well, now that I'm tasting shoe leather again...Heard a report on NPR this morning that a european concern is trying to get permission to take tankerloads of water out of the Great Lakes. The governors are planning a meeting to discuss all concerns with water sales from land and water.

Offline Ron Scott

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7704
  • Age: 82
  • Location: Cadillac, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Ron Scotts Web
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2001, 08:04:06 am »
Yes, I heard this morning on the radio that the Great Lakes is the largest fresh water source in
the world with billions and billions of gallons.

Many are looking at it for their commercial uses.
~Ron

Offline Tom

  • In Memoriam
  • *
  • Posts: 25854
  • Age: 75
  • Location: Jacksonville, Florida
  • Gender: Male
    • Toms Saw
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2001, 10:28:02 am »
I hope that Canada and the United States don't forget who they belong too.  We've gone through this with our offshore fishing and it took years before the U.S. finally told everybody to back off.
extinct

Offline RavioliKid

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 909
  • Age: 61
  • Gender: Female
  • If it's FREE, I'll take it; If it's CHEAP, I'll buy it; NEVER throw anything away!
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2001, 08:36:53 pm »
I am one of those fools who drinks bottled water. I wouldn't buy water to drink at home, but I frequently buy it when I am out as an alternative to soda or coffee. I used to feel sheepish buying water, but I have since gotten over it. I will draw the line at buying air!

I am not in favor of selling off the Great Lakes, but I am wondering about the other side of things.  If we set up a lot of bottling plants and made Coke, Nehi, beer, etc. and exported the products, would there be a similar outcry?

What have people who want to export our water been doing for water so far?



RavioliKid

Offline CHARLIE

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3217
  • Age: 73
  • Location: New Richmond, Wisconsin 54017
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't wait 'til both feet are in hot water before you decide to put your best foot forward.
    • Coulee Region Woodturners
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2001, 07:52:19 am »
Buying bottled water for convenience doesn't make anybody a fool. I bought a bottle day before yesterday when I went fishing as I had forgotten my canteen. I just don't understand people that only drink bottled water thinking that it is more pure and they pay premimum price for it.

I would be against the wholesale selling of our water to other countries. I would not be against selling water to other states in the U.S. if it was for drinking and if the reason they were buying it was because they were having a drought...not because they had allowed their water supply to become contaminated.

I hate seeing logs going out of our country, being cut into boards or veneers and then shipped back here and sold at a premium price. I would rather see the logs milled here and the end product sold to other countries. This would also apply to water and other of our natural resources.  
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Online Jeff

  • Fearless Leader
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 44962
  • Age: 56
  • Location: Harrison MI
  • Gender: Male
  • Proverbs 13:20
    • THEE Forestry Forum
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2001, 08:39:43 am »
If you all drove the northern shore of Lake Huron regular like I do, you would think somebody is already selling our water. The water is lower then I have seen it in my lifetime.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Bottle Washer.

Offline RavioliKid

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 909
  • Age: 61
  • Gender: Female
  • If it's FREE, I'll take it; If it's CHEAP, I'll buy it; NEVER throw anything away!
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2001, 11:32:06 am »
I was toward the other end of the Great Lakes while I was on my travels. I have got to say that the water level in the Niagara River looked about the same as normal - maybe a little lower, but not much.

Then, again, Erie is the shallowest of the Great Lakes, so maybe it is still receiving enough water to keep itself recharged. I didn't really get a good look at the lake levels.

It seems like the water tables around Kalamazoo are recharging. The little lakes around here are as high as they usually are. However, this might just reflect currect weather conditions.

I don't know anything, but it sure is fun to speculate! :D
RavioliKid

Offline CHARLIE

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3217
  • Age: 73
  • Location: New Richmond, Wisconsin 54017
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't wait 'til both feet are in hot water before you decide to put your best foot forward.
    • Coulee Region Woodturners
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2001, 03:15:46 pm »
Raviolikid..ya gotta know something. I think I read somewhere in this forum where you said you were a teacher. My sweetwife is in the education profession and all in all I think true educators are fairly smart....most of 'em anyhow.

Here in Minnesota we had a very wet Spring and a lot of flooding on the Minnesota and Mississippi Rivers. In fact, we can't boat on the Mississippi right now 'cause it's at flood stage. We had over 22 inches of precipitation so far this year (includes snow) which is more than we received the whole of last year. So much water that it has ruined a lot of farmer's crops. Wouldn't it be great if an area that was getting an overabundance of water could somehow route it to another state that was experiencing a drought. I'm sure Florida, Georgia and Alabama could have used some of the moisture we have up here. Maybe someday someone will figure out a way.........   ???
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Offline L. Wakefield

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Hollis Maine
  • Gender: Female
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2001, 07:43:16 pm »
    You have absolutely identified a bit of wishful thinking I have indulged in for years. Or perhaps you might call it 'prayerful' thinking.

  Do you think it would be more effective if the folks in the waterlogged area were praying to send their excess rain to the dry areas at the same time as the drought-stricken folks were praying for rain? Kind of a push-pull method.

  Arthur C. Clarke once wrote a sci-fi story on this topic- a world economy  and government based on the ability to control the weather. His speculation involved detonating nukes on the surface of the sun. Not likely we'll be doing that any time soon.   LW
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Offline CHARLIE

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3217
  • Age: 73
  • Location: New Richmond, Wisconsin 54017
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't wait 'til both feet are in hot water before you decide to put your best foot forward.
    • Coulee Region Woodturners
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2001, 11:03:15 am »
Yeah, I reckon it is wishful thinking, but could be done.....I'm just not the one to figure out how. It would be neat to be able to redistribute large volumes of water from a place of excess to a place that needs it. Probably would have to have a method to quick freeze it for shipment or turn it into gases and....and.....there I go again. And I promised my boss I wouldn't try and think this week since too many people are on vacation.  ;D

I just don't want nonreplenishable resources to be just sold for the mighty dollar. I've seen and read about large corporations going into an area and stripping it for all it's worth and then leaving a mess.  >:(  I don't like that. Next thing we'll have someone trying to use the Great Lakes to water the Sahara.
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Offline Tom

  • In Memoriam
  • *
  • Posts: 25854
  • Age: 75
  • Location: Jacksonville, Florida
  • Gender: Male
    • Toms Saw
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2001, 06:32:30 pm »
There has already been some unsuccessful effort at transporting an Iceberg to New York City. As I recall, some calculations were done showing the volume of fresh water retained to be less than 1 percent of the original berg.  What with the cost of fuel oil today, that would definitely be a losing proposition.

I wonder how bad Bagdad wants water? ;D
extinct

Offline CHARLIE

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3217
  • Age: 73
  • Location: New Richmond, Wisconsin 54017
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't wait 'til both feet are in hot water before you decide to put your best foot forward.
    • Coulee Region Woodturners
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2001, 09:18:25 am »
Tom, ya gotta think outside the box for solutions!  It's time to get all the mad scientist of the U.S. to develop a cheap and plentiful alternative fuel to replace petroleum....like hydrogen maybe. Besides, transporting huge volumes of water using a fuel wouldn't make sense. We transport oil all over the U.S. via huge pipelines....why not water? ::) Then we'd only have to fuel pumps. Of course, I'm only talking about excess water and not tapping into the Great Lakes.  
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13307
  • Age: 69
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
Re: Demands on Water
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2001, 04:15:57 pm »
Interesting prospect.  I saw on PBS that only 3(?)% of all water on earth is fresh water.  The bulk of it is in the ice caps.  Only 1% is available in liquid form.

The problem is that most fresh water rivers have been dammed and/or polluted.  They rarely make it to the ocean.

Now, a good desalination plant would be worth big bucks.  It is a source of water in Saudi Arabia.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.