Shelterwood

[flatrock]

Hello, first of all this is an excellent forum. Kudos to the people that put this together. Can someone tell me the difference between a regular shelterwood and a modified shelterwood?  TVA uses a modified shelterwood when they harvest on an area they manage near me and Im curious as to what that means.  I understand they are  removing a small amount of overstory along with midstory in the first cut and they are targeting a 50% stocking level after the 1st cut.  In a true shelterwood as explained to me you constantly thin from below maintaining the overstory until regeneration of an adequate height is present & then remove the overstory.  I would be interested in which of these shelterwood methods would be most practical to implement for  a NIPF (oak hickory) landowner in the real world.

[WDH]

I am not sure what a "modified" shelterwood is, so pardon me if I get things wrong.  For pine, thinning down to 20 -40 square feet of basal area is considered a shelterwood cut.  That would translate to about 15 to 30 seed trees/ac.  I would think that for hardwood regeneration, that 20 - 40 square feet of basal acre is a little light, so for Oak hickory, I would err on the high side and leave about 40 trees/ac as a shelterwood for regeneration.  But, I am definitely no hardwood silviculture expert.  Maybe the hardwood gurus will wade in and 'lucidate us.

[tonich]

Flatrock,
Modified shelterwood towards what!?  ???
Sounds like they’ve increased the intensitivity...


A friend of mine in New Brunswick leaded me to this site. Could you please figure it out of this site? 
Could you please ID which particular hickory is it here? I’m not familiar, you know. :P

[flatrock]

Mockernut & shagbark hickories.  Northern & southern red oak, black oak, white oak & of course gum, sassafrass, redbud & dogwood.

[Ron Wenrich]

I did dig up a reference to a modified clearcut.  In that situation, trees were left that would become snags, or down wood.  Normally a clearcut would remove all trees and it would be planted.  But, the modified clearcut had other resources that come into play.  It seems that in this instance they were playing up on the wildlife benefits.

So, I would imagine that the modified shelterwood cut has something else going on besides trees for fiber.  It could be that some of the normally taken would was left due to advanced regeneration of a desired species, or it could have some other wildlife or aesthetic benefit.  Or it could be that some of the normal leave trees were taken.  This could be to alter future stand composition.

[SwampDonkey]

I'm wondering if the modified shelterwood leaves some nice quality trees behind as super canopy trees. Like some nice white pine, rock maple and hickory species with long life expectancy. Is there much rock maple in those neck of the woods? These trees may be harvested when the new crop is ready for harvest, an improvement cut is needed, or other form of intermediate cut is required. Unfortunately, from my experience the hardwood do not do so well and suffer from crown die-back from the disturbance even though it may take a couple decades to finally die. Then there is the issue of epicormic branching, although I'm not so sure it's as much a problem on older mature trees, especially rock maple.

[tonich]

PS. BTW, why is this cuckoo Cyrillic addicted!?  ;D :D :D :D

PS2. Cyrillic is our native alphabet in Bulgaria.

[Pilot]

A modified shelterwood is simply a shelterwood that doesn't quite meet the normal definition of a shelterwood.  For some reason, they may have increased or decreased the number of trees per acre to be left.  Or, perhaps they changed the distribution of trees, maybe to meet a visual management objective. 

For example, suppose you are coing to put in a shelterwood adjacent to a road often traveled by campers, so you feel that the aesthetics are important.  You might leave more trees near the road to soften the visual impact.  You might leave some understory trees with the overstory trees, to help block the view into the unit.

How they modified the shelterwood from a conventional shelterwood all depends on their site specific objectives and the term "modified shelterwood" tells you nothing about their objectives or how the result will look, except that it will be somehow different from a normal shelterwood.

Richard Scott
Retired silviculturist
Oregon

[JimBuis]

Pilot welcome to the forum. We look forward to your continued participation in this wonderful place of learning.

Jim

[WDH]

Hey pilot, welcome to the Forum, the best Forestry place on the Web.

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! as defined by Pilot and Ron W. A modification of the timber management definition may be made for intigration of other resources such as aesthetics and wildlife. Most often in the vision or scene area of travel areas for aesthetics and mast, den, snag, or cavity trees for wildlife.

[tonich]

Hey Pilot, what took you so long!?
Why did you stay hidden in Oregon all this time? You should have told us the story, a while ago!
I was very close to raise the white flag... 
...But thanks for making things clear!

Welcome to the Forum, we all have been waiting for you.
Pull up a stump and make yourself at home!

[Pilot]

Thanks for the welcome.

Looked for a forestry forum several years ago and let's just say I didn't find anything useful for an actual land manager.  Googled again a few days ago & was pleased to find this forum.

Richard Scott
Retired silviculturist

[SwampDonkey]

Welcome aboard Richard. Great to have another perspective and another member.  8)

I to searched around about 4 years ago and I found a spot in here.  ;D There are pretty much no active forestry forums in Canada. Oh, there are boards, but they are empty or full of spam or pretty much dormant. So, that pretty much says it all.  :

[ID4ster]

To answer your question about regenerating red oak on your property. First of all you'll need a good seed year. The more acorns that are on the ground the better. You can usually tell on red oak by June or July if you'll have a good seed year or not. If so then you should plan a harvest for that fall or winter so that you can open up the canopy for the germination of the seed the following spring. Red and white oak need a lot of sun and some warm ground in order to germinate and grow. What we did on our family property in NY last year (Winter 2006) was to open up the canopy be taking out all the cull trees as firewood in log form, took out the lower quality hardwood sawlogs that we could sell and took out most of the hemlock but not all of it and left the white pine. Also during the course of harvesting, when wind conditions would not let us cut down sawlog sized trees, we slashed out the mid level understory. Most of these trees were witch hazel, striped maple, ironwood and beech saplings and poles that we had no market for and were better off being converted to woody debris that will rot into the forest soil. This mid level slashing was important because those trees provide a lot of shade that will hinder red oak regen if left standing. What we left behind, on a per acre basis, were several high quality red and white oak trees in the 8"-22" DBH classes along with hard (sugar) maple in the 10"-16" DBH class, a few soft maple in the same class, some black birch in the 8"-10" class and a scattering of well crowned hemlock, eastern white pine and hickory. We opened up the canopy from 100+% closure to around 45% canopy. This opening let the sun and warmth get to the forest floor. When I visted the site back in May of 2006 after finishing the logging at the end of March 2006 we had very good regeneration on the bare ground that was exposed during the logging. Regeneration in areas were we left slash was not evident, but red oak, which was our objective, responded well to the open canopy. I had noted that this was the case on neighboring properties after they were high graded and the canopy was opened up. Also a state forester in the area had walked our property with us a few years before and he'd made to same observation. By opening the canopy up we did have success in getting the red oak to germinate which did not happen in the areas that we did not get to log even though those areas received the same density of acorns from the fall 2005 crop. One problem that we have not solved completely is predation by whitetail deer on the new seedlings. The open areas regenerated better than areas with lots of slash but they are also more accessible to the deer. We do allow and encourage hunting on our property but unfortunately there are still a lot of deer. Our reason for leaving the hemlock was to help train red oak seedlings as they grow so that they will grow straight and tall with no epicormic branching. You may have a pine there in NC that can do the same. We're operating on a north aspect so hemlock is easy to come by.  As to what a modified shelterwood is you'd have to ask the TVA. If you want to regenerate red oak though you'll need to open up the canopy beyond what a conventional first cut shelterwood would recommend and be heavier than what a seed tree would leave behind. Welcome to the fourm and good luck on your property.

[WDH]

Good advice ID4ster.  Oak needs partial sun and partial shade to regenerate.  A good seed year is a big step forward.   

[flatrock]

Thanks everyone for the replies.  ID4ster  thanks for relating your experience with your family forest.

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, same goes for yellow birch. When harvesting hardwood in good yellow birch seed years we get almost pure stands of yellow birch regenerating. Makes for some nice pre-commercial thinning. I hate maple clumps.  :

[stonebroke]

To answer your question about regenerating red oak on your property. First of all you'll need a good seed year. The more acorns that are on the ground the better. You can usually tell on red oak by June or July if you'll have a good seed year or not. If so then you should plan a harvest for that fall or winter so that you can open up the canopy for the germination of the seed the following spring. Red and white oak need a lot of sun and some warm ground in order to germinate and grow. What we did on our family property in NY last year (Winter 2006) was to open up the canopy be taking out all the cull trees as firewood in log form, took out the lower quality hardwood sawlogs that we could sell and took out most of the hemlock but not all of it and left the white pine. Also during the course of harvesting, when wind conditions would not let us cut down sawlog sized trees, we slashed out the mid level understory. Most of these trees were witch hazel, striped maple, ironwood and beech saplings and poles that we had no market for and were better off being converted to woody debris that will rot into the forest soil. This mid level slashing was important because those trees provide a lot of shade that will hinder red oak regen if left standing. What we left behind, on a per acre basis, were several high quality red and white oak trees in the 8"-22" DBH classes along with hard (sugar) maple in the 10"-16" DBH class, a few soft maple in the same class, some black birch in the 8"-10" class and a scattering of well crowned hemlock, eastern white pine and hickory. We opened up the canopy from 100+% closure to around 45% canopy. This opening let the sun and warmth get to the forest floor. When I visted the site back in May of 2006 after finishing the logging at the end of March 2006 we had very good regeneration on the bare ground that was exposed during the logging. Regeneration in areas were we left slash was not evident, but red oak, which was our objective, responded well to the open canopy. I had noted that this was the case on neighboring properties after they were high graded and the canopy was opened up. Also a state forester in the area had walked our property with us a few years before and he'd made to same observation. By opening the canopy up we did have success in getting the red oak to germinate which did not happen in the areas that we did not get to log even though those areas received the same density of acorns from the fall 2005 crop. One problem that we have not solved completely is predation by whitetail deer on the new seedlings. The open areas regenerated better than areas with lots of slash but they are also more accessible to the deer. We do allow and encourage hunting on our property but unfortunately there are still a lot of deer. Our reason for leaving the hemlock was to help train red oak seedlings as they grow so that they will grow straight and tall with no epicormic branching. You may have a pine there in NC that can do the same. We're operating on a north aspect so hemlock is easy to come by.  As to what a modified shelterwood is you'd have to ask the TVA. If you want to regenerate red oak though you'll need to open up the canopy beyond what a conventional first cut shelterwood would recommend and be heavier than what a seed tree would leave behind. Welcome to the fourm and good luck on your property.

Have you tried the DEC DMAP ( deer management assistance program) to try and get rid of your deer problem. DEC always tells me I am the only person with a deer problem in New York state.

Stonebroke

[WDH]

There is not a deer problem around here unless you call 4-in-the-freezer a problem.  Seriously though, say more about the deer management assistance program.  What does it do beside just put more of them in the freezer?

[SwampDonkey]

Wolves boys, ya need wolves.  ;)

[stonebroke]

There is not a deer problem around here unless you call 4-in-the-freezer a problem. Seriously though, say more about the deer management assistance program. What does it do beside just put more of them in the freezer?

WDH
Dmaps ( Deer management assistance program) is a program based on a law that NY Farm Bureau got passed in 1999. Basically it enables DEC ( Dept. of Environmental Conservation) to give out extra Doe permits to farmers and other landowners for hunters to use during the regular  deer seasons. This was done to cut down on the number of nuisance permits given out during the summer. The landowners and the hunters both dislike using nuisance permits. This was supposed to be a win win situation. The hunters get to take more deer during the regular seasons and the landowners get rid of excess deer. Farmers can get as many permits as wanted and landowners get one per fifty acres. You have to prove damage, which is generally no problem. Also you can get permits if you want to get trophy deer. The problem  is that the local DEC regions have a lot of power and will lie to your face about this program. They feel they are beholden to the hunters ( that's where they get all there money) and to h#@ % with everyone else. I actually feel sorry for the state foresters because the wildlife division is ruining a lot of the forests( state and private) The browse line is all over and regeneration is very poor. If this continues the forests of NY will be beech and hemlock because these are the only things that will regenerate. Pretty pitiful. Our local DEC region throws every roadblock they can in the way of using DMAPS. When the hunters say jump DEC says how high. The hunters want to go out on their back porch and shoot a deer. Unfortunately That many deer excede the carrying capacity of the range and then we end up with alot of starving deer. That is were the wolves come in, Swampdonkey, WE have lots of wolves. They are the red wolves not the bigger gray wolves. They serve a very good purpose. There are no unhealthly deer around, Nocripples, no sick  no wounded. Also there are no dogs running wild. I have ranted to long .

Stonebroke

[ID4ster]

You've got it right in your next post. The DEC is trying to "rebuild" the deer herds after the bad winters in 2003 and 2004. Apparently too many "hunters" can't see enough deer to shoot at when they are driving around in their pickups or on their 4-wheelers and so they said that the number of doe permits and nuisance permits needed to be cut way back. The NY DEC in one of the biggests tank jobs in the US said ok. No matter that the deer numbers in my area are around 27 per square mile the DEC says that we need more. One of my fellow landowners feels the same way about deer that we do and that is that there are way too many. One guy in our area set up trail cams and said positively that there were only 4 does in a 200 acre block. When he saw that my brother had killed a doe he was disappointed to say the least. After telling my brother about the 4 does my brother had to tell him about the 16 deer that he'd seen on opening day and that this doe was one of 8 that he'd seen that morning in 90 minutes on our property on the second weekend of the season. Needless to say the guy was flabbergasted but these are the ones talking to the DEC about the lack of deer. We don't even have to try to see deer on our place they show up all the time but since you have to get off the road to do it they don't count in most "hunters" minds. The DEC doesn't give a darn about the habitat for deer. They'll let it be eaten to nothing if it'll keep hunters happy. Our problem is that we simply can't kill enough deer in and around our property and we don't qualify for a nusiance permit. Meanwhile all our efforts to regenerate some red and white oak, hard maple, black cherry and chestnut are going for naught. If I had the money I'd kill enough deer to get noticed and then when I was hauled into court I'd put the NY DEC's deer management program on trial and find out gives them the right to force private timber owners to sacrifice their forests for the DEC's benefit. The same problem exists in PA where biologist Gary Alt was practically strung up for telling the hunters there that they needed to drastically reduce the herd size. He's gone and PA is well on its way to ruining their forests and eventually crashing the deer herd in a big way. We've got wolves here in Idaho and they are a pain. I'd gladly ship them to NY to kill deer and maybe bite those DEC folks in the butt if that would make them get out of their offices and into the field and truely look at the deer population rather than listening to a bunch of ATV deer hunters. You can't have the deer without the forest but the DEC deer management folks don't see it that way at all.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, ever since the 3 wheeler came out a lot of people do less hunting on foot. My grandfather hunted deer and grouse on foot. If a bird crossed the road, he let his bird dogs out to flush him up into trees. If it didn't have sense to leave the road he usually shot it there. We are talking forest roads, not highways. The last deer the old man shot was when he was 76 years old and we had to drag that 10 pointer across 2 beaver ponds. He got into a herd of them in a softwood stand and said this one was the unlucky one. This was 1984. The population of deer have gone down hill since in that area and in northern NB. All the older mature softwoods have been cut or blew down eliminating most deer wintering habitat. There are deer wintering management areas, but wood was harvested in them. So, pretty much useless except in southern zones. On those fresh softwood choppings the deer where as thick as robins. The lake shores were all tramped with deer trails, made it nice for fishing. ;D