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Author Topic: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction  (Read 12529 times)

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Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2007, 07:32:56 pm »
Down braces can be a good thing.
When the wind blows on the side of a building with down braces the first wall the wind hits is stiffer.
Shown in the drawing below the red braces are in compression and the blue would be in tension:



If he is going to have some windows in this bent they could be located here:



It really depends on the window locations and other spacing factors.
Down braces stop the wind force earlier then it going all the way across the bent to the other compression braces.
In the second drawing the red braces will take more compression and this may not be a good thing.

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Offline mudburn

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2007, 09:26:20 pm »
I added the braces at floor level to help stiffen the frame. One concern is that my braces are not really large (2' down and 2' over), and I won't have sips to add stiffness to the frame. I don't expect the second-floor floor-level brace shown to cause much cussing -- I've already thought about how they will affect my walls upstairs on bents 2 & 3 and have devised a way around them.

Windows. I have some large (56"x54") casement windows for the house. There will be four places with doubles and seven other singles of this size. All windows will be about 18" outside the frame on the outside edge of the strawbales. So, even if a brace is in front of the window opening, it won't be a problem (although this is an issue for only two windows).

I've played with a lot of different options that allowed me to keep my previous design (it was not the original, though). Again, I was attempting to change only that which hasn't already been completed (it's making changes partway through that cause problems and call for creativity). Girts to which floor joists attach isn't really an option because of how I designed the tie beams -- they are in a different plane than the girts.

The first floor is not a sill. The posts extend 6" below the first floor beams and will sit on piers. The posts will be strapped to these piers. I will also provide some support mid-span on the first floor beams since I can and it will help with any load issues.

Darryl
Blogging my house project at Cedar Ridge Farm.

Offline Griffon

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2007, 10:18:50 am »
OK, I was thinking open plan for some reason, in which case stepping over the tie beams would have occasioned even more cussing than detouring a brace  ;D Of course, adding braces will stiffen things up, a desirable measure given that the posts aren't continuous.

Otherwise, its an unusual design the product of creativity, and so may rightfully attract further scrutiny. If my comments cannot immediately be marked off as ignorance, you may consider I'm playing devils advocate, to help get to the heart of the matter.

The rear roof slope doesn't rattle me. At the front however, the low angled roof creates more outward thrust, for which the collar tie should help. According to the example in the red book, the tie needed to be surprisingly low in order to be effective. Therefore, is it possible that the knee brace could end up in tension (given that a strong wind isn't blowing!).  If so, could the addition of a brace between post and roof member (or collar tie) be of help?

The other characteristic of low angled roofs to windward is that they may produce (dependent on overall structure dimensions) strong suction force. Make sure everything is fastened down well!

Lee

Offline mudburn

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2007, 05:43:59 pm »
Y'know, I'm appreciating and enjoying this discussion.  smiley_blue_bounce

Quote
Therefore, is it possible that the knee brace could end up in tension (given that a strong wind isn't blowing!).  If so, could the addition of a brace between post and roof member (or collar tie) be of help?

To what extent does the triangle created by the roof, queen post, and tie beam act as a brace in the frame?

I've pondered on a brace from the rear post to the collar tie, and, in fact, at one point I had the collar tie lower and a brace from the post attached to it. It doesn't get in the way of window placement, but I removed it from the design -- I just haven't figured it all the way out yet. I guess it's better to have too many braces than too few.

Quote
The other characteristic of low angled roofs to windward is that they may produce (dependent on overall structure dimensions) strong suction force. Make sure everything is fastened down well!

Hmm. . . The house will actually be somewhat protected in its location. It will be against a hill in a bottom. The hill behind it is treed and rises probably 60 feet above. Across the bottom (about 75 yards) another ridge rises about 50-60 feet. Everything will be fastened down well, and I want to make sure that the design is right. I'm doing this on a budget (pay as I go) and am doing every possible part of the whole process that I can myself. The responsibility for it being right rests solely upon my shoulders. So, I appreciate all comments and shared wisdom. That's why I'm appreciating and enjoying this discussion so much!

Darryl
Blogging my house project at Cedar Ridge Farm.

Offline mudburn

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2007, 11:25:50 pm »
I wanted to share a photo of my dad's house showing the wood shingle siding he put on it. These shingles were from a local pallet company. They sell a pallet of what they call 'slabs' for $2 each. My dad has more in the s-t-a-p-l-e-s  (;D I'm smiling because the staples moderators think they're having fun) than he does the siding for his house!



This is the same siding I'm planning for my house.

Someone asked about floor plan and renders. I don't have those readily available. The program I've used for floor plans doesn't export images very well. If I can make it happen, I'll share these with you.

I'll keep you updated as I progress on the frame. At this time, there's been plenty of other things competing for my time, including cabin demolition.  :)

Darryl

Blogging my house project at Cedar Ridge Farm.

Offline Raphael

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2007, 01:08:16 am »
Someone asked about floor plan and renders. I don't have those readily available. The program I've used for floor plans doesn't export images very well. If I can make it happen, I'll share these with you.

  If you've got decent image editing software (Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, or the like) you can take a screen capture (PC) or screen snapshot (MAC) and then paste into a new document in your image editing software.  On a PC it's [ALT]+[PrintScreen] to capture an image of the program in the foreground and just [PrintScreen] to capture the whole desktop.  Depending on how your printer is installed it may simultaniously send the image to the printer so you may want it powered down to save the ink.
  It's essentially the same on a MAC but I can't remember if you use the apple key or the command key to constrain it to just the client in the foreground.  Either way you'll want to crop out the client borders and headers before resizing to FF dimensions.
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Offline johnjbc

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2007, 07:41:20 am »
I addition to what  Raphael said if you are running XP the paint program in Accessories has the ability to save a file in jpeg format. You couldnít do it with Win98 but donít know about millennium  or W2k.
Just open Paint and paste in the screen Image. Do a :
File
Save As
Change the Save as type to JPEG and save the file.
Then you can use XCAT to size the file to forum standards
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Offline mudburn

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2007, 10:50:33 am »
Thanks, guys! I didn't know about doing a screen capture with Alt-PrintScreen. That's cool!

Okay, I can show you my floorplan now. Here's the first floor:




The frame is not represented in this image. So, you have to imagine where the posts are (at the corners, on the line from the door on the left to the wall on the right, and on 12' centers from left to right). We've played around with the design a lot. Originally, the rooms were all going to coincide with the bents/bays. As it is now, the main bathroom at the foot of the stairs straddles bent number 2. There is a mudroom and pantry on the left side -- this will be stick framed. There will also be a porch on three sides -- the left, the front, and the right sides in the plan. The large windows are 56"x54" casement windows which I purchased from a building supply in Michigan via Ebay. Also, the exterior walls are thick, representing the 18" of the strawbales.

Here's the 2nd floor:




There will be doorways to the storage under the eaves on the front of the house, I just haven't illustrated them yet.

My floorplan program doesn't allow me to create a salt box type of roof, so rendering an outside image of the house is difficult. Maybe I can do that with SketchUp one of these days.

Darryl
Blogging my house project at Cedar Ridge Farm.

Offline mudburn

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2007, 01:25:09 pm »
I thought I'd give an update. Basically, I haven't gotten as far as I had hoped I would by this point. Blame it on the weather. It's been so nice that I've been doing a lot of other things that need to be done. I haven't neglected the frame altogether, though. I started on the rafters this week.

I have some renders of the house to share. I put these together using SketchUp last night and this morning. Not perfect, but they give an idea of how it'll look from the outside (I anxiously look forward to seeing the real thing).










Blogging my house project at Cedar Ridge Farm.

Offline Griffon

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2007, 03:30:03 am »
Cool! For sure I would have to get Sketchup if I ever 'went pro' but does it run on a Mac?  >:(

Offline LeeB

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2007, 04:02:55 am »
I beleivethere is a version for mac. It's free from google. Do a search and see.
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Offline mudburn

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2007, 02:52:36 pm »
I thought I'd share a bit of an update on my progress, in case anyone's interested.

I completed the rafters. Working with two different pitches made things interesting, but I just took my time and was as careful as possible. I had to put two of the 16' 6"x8"s on my mill and square them up a bit (just one face on one of them). I moved the timbers and organized them near the house site in order to begin the fit-up. I began the full frame fit-up last week. I hope to begin putting bents together before this week is out. I haven't chosen the raising date yet, but probably the end of July or beginning of August.

Inspired by others, I started a blog. You can view it at cedar-ridge-farm.blogspot.com. It takes time to keep it updated, which I haven't been really good at. And, I don't always think to take pictures when I should.

Darryl
Blogging my house project at Cedar Ridge Farm.

Offline beenthere

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2007, 03:04:51 pm »
We'd like some pics please. We like pics.  :)  'Specially when you do the raisin.  ;D
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Offline mudburn

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2007, 07:16:02 pm »
Well, beenthere, since pics are so popular, I've added some more to my gallery. Here's you go:





These two photos show the pile of braces as it grew while working on them. Along with my able assistant, our 'homesteading intern' for this summer, we completed 38 braces in a couple days work. All of the braces are the same size.

Here are some photos of the completed beams/posts after we stacked them near the house site in preparation for beginning the fit-up process:









Then we began the fit-up:







So far, we've completed the fitting-up process. Next we move on to putting the bents together in preparation for raising the frame. I've set Labor Day Weekend as the date for the raising. It'll happen on that Sunday and Monday. I have to complete one more beam as a replacement for one that twisted. I've worked on figuring out how to best cut the dovetail tenons and floor joist ends. Here's a pic of a sample one:



I used a portable band saw to cut the tenon and the arc on the end. I plan to have one end cut on each of the floor joists and purlins before the raising day.

Okay, one more photo, of the beetle I made to help persuade the timbers to fit together:



It's made out of an end cut off of a 6x8 with a hickory shovel handle put through it with wedges to help keep it in, although it fits pretty tight without the wedges.

Okay, is that too many photos??   ;D

Darryl

Blogging my house project at Cedar Ridge Farm.

Offline beenthere

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2007, 07:22:26 pm »
mudburn
Those pics were 'fantastic'. Really enjoyed them, and marvel at the work you are getting done.
Thanks
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Offline mudburn

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2007, 10:53:50 pm »
I've been thinking about raising the frame for some time. I've bounced ideas off of others, and I thought I would ask you all for some input.

I know a crane would simplify things in many ways, but I am pursuing other methods of raising for a variety of reasons. My idea for the raising is to use 'shear legs' (a two-legged gin pole, if you will) made from a couple cedars about 30' long each. Then, I will use one or two block-and-tackle/rope hoists. The power to pull will either be human or mechanical (I don't think I can get my cow to cooperate) -- I haven't worked this out all the way yet (I know what I would prefer, but it costs money).

I would like to raise the bents completely assembled, including the rafters. Completed, they will measure 20' 10" from bottom to top. They will be raised and will stand on concrete piers, the tallest being ~3' high. Because of the design of my bents, the weakest point is where the rafters and upper posts attach to the tie beam. So, I plan on clamping a frame to the back side of the bent prior to raising each one. It will be clamped at the lower beam, the tie beam, and the rafters. I intend this frame to hold the bent rigid and to take most of the stress of the raising. My idea is to lift on the framework, not the bent itself.

Here are some renders I did in SketchUp to help illustrate what I'm describing:







What are your thoughts? Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks!

Darryl
Blogging my house project at Cedar Ridge Farm.

Offline jpgreen

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2007, 11:19:04 pm »
I really like your design.  I've got a southern faced parcel that would be great for that house, looking out across the mountains..  8)
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Offline Don P

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2007, 11:20:57 pm »
Hey mudburn its looking good  8)

I've been tilting up much smaller bents with a similar rig. I did rig it with a snatch block to the bent's frame to double our 6:1 winch up to 12:1. I figure we were tipping up about a ton, the top of the bent is about 20' but we grabbed it at about 14' up and had a 12' tall ginpole (runnin what I had). With 2 of us it was about all you wanted. I could have put more blocks in or wound around a smaller drum to increase the advantage. That is one honking heavy looking bent.

Your piers concern me for a tip up though. There's a fair amount of horizontal pull as it tips up and could overturn a tall slender pier. If you do tip them, think about bracing them good in the direction of pull. Myself I think your deep into call a crane territory  :)

Offline mudburn

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2007, 09:18:24 am »
DonP, thanks for the response. I'm still pondering the raising. What I proposed here is one option, and I'm thinking of others. Maybe raising it all together might be asking for too much without a crane. I'm thinking about the merits of raising the frame assembled to the tie beam and then putting the rafters and posts together and raising them on top. I'm also thinking about a crane or lift assisted option, but it's less likely. I'm still interested in hearing others' thoughts, of course.

Darryl
Blogging my house project at Cedar Ridge Farm.

Offline mudburn

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Re: The Frame I'm Workin' on -- New Member Introduction
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2007, 03:32:32 pm »


Assembled the first bent today. We worked on the rafters and their associated posts yesterday. After thinking about raising the frame some more, I decided that it would be better to raise the bents assembled without the rafters. They will be assembled and raised after the main portion of each bent is raised. I will be able to use a smaller gin pole and have a safer raising this way, I believe.

Here are some more pics of our work today:









Blogging my house project at Cedar Ridge Farm.