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Need help w/ possible fanatic!!

Started by BrandonTN, February 22, 2007, 04:43:00 PM

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BrandonTN

In defense of modern-day forestry in the U.S., I made the possibly false statement that there were more trees in the U.S. now then there were when the pilgrims first came over.....the fanatic(who is also my friend) said:

QuoteI'm sorry, but I'm sure that's a nice piece of propoganda put out by the big forestry companies. If you believe that, I'm gonna have to wonder what you been smokin'!

Pretty much the whole of the eastern part of Canada and the United States was virgin forest when the pilgrims landed here. It's now mostly farmland and cities. My ancestors were responsible for this: my great-great grandfather on my mom's side owned a lumber mill near Belleville, and many of my relatives on both sides were farmers. I don't think they go far enough back to have homesteaded the land, but I DO know exactly how homesteading was done. First step: cut down ALL the trees and burn what you can't use. Second step: sow your crops amongst the stumps. Once the stumps have rotted enough, or you have sufficient horse, man and axe power, pull the stumps out. NOW you're really smokin'! You can plow a straight furrow without hitting those *DanG roots... The pioneers really hated the forest. Only when they started to have trouble finding wood to burn in their fireplaces, and cedar trees to make fenceposts out of did they begin to think about conservation, and preserving a woodlot for future use.

There may be more trees now than there were in the early part of the 20th century. The Dust Bowl taught a harsh lesson about removing natural vegetation from land that never should have seen a plow. But NO ONE is going to convince me there are more trees than there were when the Mayflower landed! That's just utter nonsense!

What do you make of it?  Is she way off?
Forester, Nantahala National Forest

Dan_Shade

you've got yourself in a good debate!

part of what she's said is correct, I'd assume, she certainly makes a good argument.  there could be more trees today, but they certainly aren't of the same quality....

I'll leave the useful responses to the foresters :)
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Ron Wenrich

This is an old Rush Limbaugh argument.  Technically, there are probably more trees than when the pilgrims arrived.  But, there are not more acres of forest land.  That's where the arguement breaks down.

A good read is The Northeast's Changing Forest by Lloyd Irland.  Lots of stats and gives a pretty good history of how the forests in the northeast over the years and where they seem to be headed.  Its relavent because most things happen in the northeast before they happen in other parts of the country.

The estimated amount of forest land around 1600 is 857 million acres.  For 1992, about 737 million acres.  In 1909, that figure was down around 544 million acres.  A lot of land has come back as wooded when the farm economy went on the skids and it was better to get a job in town than farm the back 40.  In addition, farming technology has increased where you can get higher yields on the same amount of ground.

I saw in Pennsylvania where we are now starting to lose forested acreage again.  That's coming from all the development.  One thing that doesn't show up in forest land figures is the amount of fragmented forest.  Although we have lots of forest land in PA, there are a lot of acres that are just big building lots.   

The reason the number of trees is higher is because they are smaller than the virgin forests.  An acre can have a lot more trees on it if they aren't very big in size. 

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

WDH

Yes, the general consensus is that there are more trees today than when white man arrived on this continent in the Eastern part of this land.  The pre-white-man land regularly burned.  Fire was a natural part of the ecology.  There were native grasslands in the east as well.  In my part of the country, one of the pervasive native eco-types was the longleaf and wire grass community.  Most of the native grasses are gone, because they need fire to maintain the environment that they thrived in.  I have heard this from reliable and educated sources such as College Professors who have studied the question.  However, I do not have any references handy to support this claim.

However, it does not look like there will be any success in getting her to believe you no matter what references you show her.  Sounds like her mind is made up.

Tell you what you might do.........Come to Perry, GA (or any number of other places that I could recommend).  Strike out across the country down to the corner where Tom lives Jacksonville, FL.).  Don't say nuthin', just drive.  When you get there, ask her what she has seen.  There are so many miles of trees that it is plain amazin'.  Trees, trees, and more trees.  However, many people cannot see the forest for the trees, and many people cannot see the forest because of all the buildings in the city (that they grew up in and live in, and rarely ever get out of) blocks out the view of the forest.

Good luck.  Maybe she needs to do a little research if she is open minded enough to consider that she might be wrong.

   
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

I wouldn't say there are more trees now then way back 300 years. But, I know there are more now then there were 70 years ago. Because before the second world war there was a lot more cleared land here, about double actually. A lot of those first fields grew up after the first world war until the mid 80's and 90's or there abouts and were harvested a second time and now have a new crop 10-25 years old growing back on them. Some parcels of land were cut twice after being farmed at one time. Here in New Brunswick, land was granted by clearing 10 acres, which the government then gave title to 100 acres. On a lot of parcels that 10 acres was let to regrow and some parcels on the better ground were continually deforested for farm expansion after the first world war. Most places around here are only around 130-150 years old. The old settlements are along the coast. With the axe and buck saw you tended to cut the better trees since it wasn't the most productive method of harvesting and you wanted a good tree for most uses. The exception would be for firewood. There was not much of a pulp and paper industry until about 1910-20, it was mostly a saw timber industry. What was cut was pretty close to water transport. That left millions of acres untouched by man and lots for bugs and fires and old age to remove. Actually, until the pulp and paper industry the forest was vastly under utilized.

Jeff has a good book he had Jeremy type on the forum, you should take a read. It's a first person perspective, not written by some professor type a century later. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

isawlogs

 You guy"s are too quick for me ... Man I sat here typing awy and went topost ... two had already replied ... do some rewriting .. well anuder went ahead of me ...  Well .. alls I am going to saye is ... there are more trees today because of the fact they are smaller in diameter ... more of um per acre ... does this mean more fiber per acre .. I doubt that ....  so ya may be both right .  :D :D :D :D
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

WDH

I did not see Ron's response before I posted. 

While there might be more trees now because we grow them thick as crops, the question about forest acres (hectares for you cold weather polar bear types) is entirely different.  The main point is that there are more trees, but we have changed the habitat that they grow in and that is because we became civilized consuming animals that dominate the environment.  The more pertinent question is what should we do today. 

Everything we use either comes from a little hole in the ground (as in wells like for oil), a big hole in the ground (the mines for all our ores, metals, minerals), or from the land (forest or Ag).  Both the little hole in the ground and the big hole in the ground are not renewable; When they get used up, we leave.  At least the other source for everything else we need is renewable.

There is some hope for our consuming ways..........   
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Phorester

Some more figures,

It's estimated that we have about 66% of the forestland that was here when Columbus stepped ashore. 

We gained 10 million acres of trees in the USA between 1990 and 2005.

Over the last 50 years, net growth of trees has consistently exceeded removals.

By 2050, we will have lost about 23 million acres of woodlands to development.

And the psuedo-environmentalists want to stop loggers from cutting trees?  They need to stop building their houses.

Loggers make their money from cutting trees because the rest of us buy the products made from trees.  So if you want to stop logging, stop buying the products made from trees.  (I dare ya to try!)

bull

Look for the stone walls.......... If there is a wall there was an open field...... Our farm 150 acres is all surrounded and divided by walls only 30 acres of that are now open and usable cropland, about 15 acres is Open wetland pasture w/ varing ages of brush " if we can bush hog when dry we remove brush" all remaining acreage is in 2nd and 3rd growth mixed hardwood and softwood stands.... in the older stand stems per acre are 50 % less than the younger stands and any trees 300 years or older are dying and becoming wild life habitat..... OLD GROWTH is limited to about 6 trees red Oak aver 500 Years Maybe !!!!
More stems per acre the better the air quailty.......

WDH

Well said Phorester 8). 

After they stop building their houses, they can stop using anything made from trees at the same time. 

Maybe they can then go live in one of those used up holes in the ground.

Lets face it.  Progress changes things.  We can't go back in time to the old ways.  People have to have their iPods you know.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Greenedive

Quote
Quote from: WDH on February 22, 2007, 10:32:49 PM
Lets face it. Progress changes things. We can't go back in time to the old ways.

My Grandfather would tell about the last stand of virgin Hemlock in the area in the hollow up behind the old homestead. He said even on a bright and sunny afternoon it was a dark, dank, and gloomy place....looked like twilight all the time. People that want the 'virgin' forests restored would probably hate to be in them.
I've got 120 acres over in Potter County and all I can say is I'm sure glad it's growing Cherry and Maple and Ash and Oak....instead of just Hemlock. ;D

Greg Cook

The best help I can offer isn't related to factoids or statistics (which only 27% of the population believes anyway.)

My suggestion is to be wary of beginning arguments or heated discussions with those who are of the opposite gender from yourself. Their logic system works different from ours (note that I didn't say it was wrong).

In 25 years of marriage I have found that it's best to put forth a statement then shut up about it. If it does seem true, they will eventually adopt it as "their idea", then all you have to do is agree with them ;D
"Ain't it GOOD to be alive and be in TENNESSEE!" Charlie Daniels

Greenedive

Quote
Quote from: Greg Cook on February 22, 2007, 10:52:17 PM
My suggestion is to be wary of beginning arguments or heated discussions with those who are of the opposite gender from yourself. Their logic system works different from ours (note that I didn't say it was wrong).
In 25 years of marriage I have found that it's best to put forth a statement then shut up about it. If it does seem true, they will eventually adopt it as "their idea", then all you have to do is agree with them ;D
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

BrandonTN

Forester, Nantahala National Forest

thecfarm

I found it funny that people don't want the forest cut.But some go home to thier stick built homes,most walk on hardwood floors,most have a hardwood wood table,eat dinner that was wrapped in paper,sit on a chair that has wood inside,go to bathroom,go to bed in thier nice hardwood bed and on and on it goes.But that is differant as I'm told. That I can not figure out.I have a bumper ticket on my truck,If You Object To Logging,Try Using Plastic Toliet Paper. I have been stopped in a parking lot more than once and told they like the saying.I cut wood a little.Some guy at work was coming down on me about cutting trees.He's right,I'm wrong.We put used cardboard on pallets to keep the parts clean during shipment.Have to walk over to where it is kept to get it.We always have alot of it.Looked over one day and here's he is taking BRAND new cardboard for the pallet.I told him people like him is why I will always be cutting wood.But he was still right. Just stay clear of people like that.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Woodhog

I dont think there is much worry about fiber/forests around here anymore, with the rate of mill closures and the present and future state of the industry the trees should be quite happy.

Bowaters shut one down in Ontario the other day and yesterday I see two more shut down
somewhere else.

If that closure rate continues we will be smothered in forest land..

I drove over 100 miles the other day on our largest highways and counted less than 10 truckloads of wood moving.. it must be still growing on the stump...

What land used to be in small farms around here has all reverted back to forest land, hundreds of acres...except for the few new people farms (sub-divsions).


SwampDonkey

Most of the new subdivisions around Woodstock are on old farms from retiring farmers. There have been a few speculation deals that have gone sour also. And it has only recently been expanding around there because of retiring baby boomers. Woodstock is basically a rural town and most of the industry is farm based, service industry, realestate, auto dealers, and transport. Not much manufacturing a couple wood working shops, welding shops. Since WW2 it was pretty much in a downward spiral until the early 90's. The government threw a bunch of tax money to build a multimillion dollar horse race track back in the early nineties, just to race horses once a year. A lot of the town folks couldn't see the justification, but the town mouth pieces had to have it.  In another year or so, the hospital will be closed down, yet they have one new nursing home and another site has had the ground work done. They are moving the new regional hospital up river, which is fine but why close the town hospital?  ::) A lot of older folks move to the larger towns for the service and to be closer to health care. Most towns in the upper river valley have remained the same or slid back a little in my time. Most improvements in infrastructure come from an influx of federal tax dollars from ACOA or other forms. Not a great deal of private investment. I was just on the website of ACOA the other day and can see where the money has been coming from. Several towns got money to build a wooden walk way along their water front. I mean millions. I could think of better ways to spend it. Seems frivolous. I mean if you want a dang walk way, get private investment, then you'll see if it's all that important. And I bet it will get built a lot cheaper. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jim king

Most women like animals more than trees.  Explain to her that old growth is a very poor forest and without logging there would be only a small percentage of the food from new growth and farming areas available for animals and as a result many less animals.    That will make her think.  To me it is not much different than an old folks home "mature" is not very productive but the new sprouts coming out of schools do hopefully produce.

Does she also recomend old growth corn  ¿?


Daren

Here are some "fun" facts from the University of Illinois Forestry Dept.

"# Total land area - 35.6 million acres
# Forestland prior to European settlement - 13.8 million acres (40 percent)
# Forestland today - 4.4 million acres (12 percent)
# Most of the original forests were cleared for agriculture, fuelwood, fence posts, transportation, and urban and industrial development
# Illinois ranks 49th among states in percent of land remaining in original vegetation"

We are only beat by one state for clearing the original trees  :'(. That is why I am an urban logger, there are more trees in town than in the "country" it's all corn and beans. Before European settlement my area was a grassy plain for the most part anyway. It's just the way it was, trees grow some places and not others, grass grew here not many trees. There are places I can leave town and park the truck and look in all directions to the horizon and not see 6 trees, just flat farmground. If the ground is "tillable" the few trees are LONG gone, the majority of the timber is river bottom or state owned.

What Phorester said! I will not divert this thread by siting examples of people wanting "a house in the woods" and the first thing they did was bulldoze the hardwood into a pile and burn it so people could see their fancy house and big yard. I was a plumber for 15 years working new construction...I saw Millions of bft wasted. Now I treecycle, I closed the plumbing shop and bought a sawmill. I have nothing against logging, when done right it is very beneficial to the timberland, some would say a necessity and I could not disagree . I just don't buy logs from local loggers, they don't do it right around here, it is slash and pile. Get in- get out and $$$.
Urban logging is my way  8), I may starve to death at it but I feel good about it and it is actually a selling point to the "Greenies"
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

SwampDonkey

So Brandon, after all this, did you win the girl or what?

:D :D :D ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

slowzuki

In my area during the 1960's or so, the aerial photos show that she was one giant bunch farmers field for nearly 100 km's along the valley.  The only forest was up out of the valley.  Now it has mostly grown back in.  Feilds I was involved in haying (I'm not yet 30!) have 6" diameter poplar over the whole thing.  The speed of reforestation was greatest around areas that had lots of little stands of trees.

jim king

We have the same problem in the Amazon.  You can build a road today and next year you cannot find it.

SwampDonkey

Yeah down in Cloverdale, Carlisle , Brighton, Northampton, Pembroke and Mainstream area there was a pile of farm land, mostly all growing back and many many areas reforested with planted trees. It's nice to see a lot of them old squared off fields growing back in stands of spruce and fir. $$ But many are birch, spruce, aspen, fir, red maple mixes and some mainly alders with spruce, ash, butternut, and maple sparsely distributed. Tiny fields on dry ridges tend to reforest with hard maple, red maple and birch. 
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Cedarman

According to a report about cedar infestation in Oklahoma, it is taking over the state at 762 acres per DAY.  When we cut the cedar that took over the US 's first federal golf coarse last year, we estimated at upward of 2000 stems per acre in the thicker areas.  Without fire, you have to work at keeping trees off the land.

A lot of wood was used for fuel for the big locomotives. 

Our wood consumption could change drastically if there is a good process found to convert it to biodiesel.  We could easily head back in another direction of too much wood usage.  Follow the money.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Phorester


I was in Oklahoma for a month exactly a year ago, running a bulldozer on  those big prairie fires out there.  (I even learned how to spell prairie.  ;D)

I remember the local farmers talking about the cedar problem.  One farmer told us, go anywhere you have to on my land, do what you have to do, I'll fix any damage.  Just stop that *DanG fire!  Oh, and burn all the @$#^&*!! cedars you can!

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