Logging methods

jim king · February 19, 2007, 08:01:35 PM

Ron: I am in total agreement about the enviornmental impact. I just got my hands on a study from Guyana comparing the consequences of both systems and as only can happen with the do gooders this time the WWF signed off on it stating that chainsaw logging was better contrary to what they say here and we have the same species and jungle type. Figure that one out..

As for using horses they cannot take the wet conditions and go bad quickly from hoof rot. We do have water buffalo that could be used if we can train them which should be able to be done. We dont have people with a lot of experience with animals as we are still in a basicly hunter gatherer society and people here have no idea how to work or handle animals. This is probably the last place in the world where people still do not till the soil.

We do have an excess of labor available and for the most part the people work hard and need work. As we only need lumber 54 inches long it is not a problem for them to carry out a 6 x 10 x 54 inch cant a few miles. It would be no problem to harvest 10,000 bf daily in this form. I prefer to use the people as they have no income and $4-5 a day is very good money here and they can live in a form that they consider very good. Time will tell.

Gary_C · February 19, 2007, 09:13:59 PM

How many people would that take to move 10,000 bdft in a day and what would be the total cost?

Here I could not even hire someone for that much per hour and workmens comp would add about $.44 per every dollar of payroll.

jim king · February 19, 2007, 09:30:09 PM

Gary: The cants average about 20 bf each or 500 cants and a man can cary 5-6 a day meaning the need for maybe 100 men at $5 a day for a total of $500. Or 5 cents a board foot. It is cheaper than a skidder and you have at least 500 people eating and fathers buying clothes and books for thier kids.

SwampDonkey · February 20, 2007, 06:39:41 AM

My workers comp last year was $39 per $1000 of payroll, it dropped this year to $26 per. I'm ok with that. ;D

Ron Wenrich · February 20, 2007, 06:42:29 PM

How comes 54"? It sounds like they are being used for pallets. How much is 1 Mbf worth? Although your hauling costs are low, it still has to be less than the product is worth.

Is there any markets for any other sized products? Many of our members have found that there is often a niche market than can be addressed. Those niche markets usually pay much better than the common lumbers. My thinking is that maybe some of those longer lengths could be worthwhile if there is a good market. I suspect you are cutting the trees up with a chainsaw mill.

If one man can carry 20 bf, I suppose 2 men can carry 40 bf. Possibly build some sort of harness that 2 men can carry in tandem instead of carrying individually.

How many acres are you cutting on to cut 10 Mbf/day? That sounds like a pretty large area if you are cutting only a few individuals/acre.

jim king · February 21, 2007, 08:54:19 AM

Ron: We cut 54" as our product is 1,2,3 and 4 foot long. We sell 1/4 , 1/2 and 3/4 boards each seperatly packaged in shrink wrap all KD , S4S. We dont need anymore markets.

We cut from land that we own. We have several 100 acre parcels and one of about 35,000 acres . A typical tree of the various species we are working will yeild about 900 bf as we use the crotches , branches and stumps also for special markets.

We do not use a chainsawmill but just a chainsaw and most times you would think the cants are mill cut. I wish I could figure out how to post photos, you all would enjoy seeing what life is like on the other side of the world.

Jeff · February 21, 2007, 01:17:50 PM

Jim, I posted a new tutorial on posting photos just a week or so ago. It would be great if you took the time to learn how, as we really would like to see the photos.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=23851.0

jim king · February 21, 2007, 03:12:15 PM

Now if I can remember how I did this I will post more. This is our version of a skidder

This is a hope chest I made for the Grandaughter from Pink Flame wood

Large species such as this are a harvesting nightmare and usually are just let to mature and fall over.

Our transport vehicles in the area might give the State Patrolman a heart attack up there.

We just made 100 cutting boards like this as samples for a customer

This is a group of cants ready to be carried out to the road.

This is our home made 35 hp cant saw made out of scrap bloodwood and Purpleheart

Some of the cants in town ready for resawing

Ron Wenrich · February 21, 2007, 05:26:15 PM

You have some really nice looking woods down there. Sure beats the oak, tulip poplar and maple that I'm used to cutting.

SwampDonkey · February 21, 2007, 05:35:59 PM

Nice job on the postings Jim. Really nice wood to. They selling timber land down there cheap? They are here, but for cutover ground at $50-200 per acre. How far have they got to tote those bolts? It's no easy task, even if they are small bolts. Cant you rig up a buffalo and a cart? Once a pour lad busts his hump, he's pretty much going to starve the way I see it.

jim king · February 21, 2007, 06:56:16 PM

Swampdonkey:

Timberland in the tropics runs about $12 an acre. Then you have to get to it.

The people we have working think nothing of carrying these cants out and as we pay more than double the going wage they are very happy. They will carry up to ten miles depending on the wood. If they were not carrying for us they would be carrying firewood and earning about a dollar a day. Worse yet they could be making charcoal which has to be one of the worst jobs in the world and a complete family will earn about $5 or 6 a week. In places like this there is a lot more to being the employer than paying an employee. If someone gets sick the govt hospital doesnt work, if you want your worker or his family member to live you get a good doctor. If you want the kids in the village school to learn anything you buy notebooks, pencils ect. etc. plus control the teacher so as they show up.

We now have a teachers strike and possibly this year we will not have public schools because the govt wanted to give a test to the teachers to see who could read and write and eliminate the bad ones. Problem - most cannot read and write so they went on strike.

My employees kids are in private schools run by the Catholic Church and have a wonderful education. Those Nuns are tough . I am not a religious person but let credit fall where due.

This explains a bit about living in the third world.

SwampDonkey · February 21, 2007, 07:34:37 PM

Thanks for sharing your experiences Jim. We get so much negative media as you know, that it's good to here some folks care about the forest and the people that rely on them so much.

I know driving a buffalo wouldn't be as exciting as a petrol powered beast, but it could possibly move a larger volume of wood in a week. Might not want to be bare footed though around those hooved animals. It still would take some kind of a decent trail to move efficiently. Then, someone is going to have to be dedicated to caring for the animals as well. Sometimes bare footedness can't be beat. ;)

Ed_K · February 21, 2007, 08:00:52 PM

Yes, thanks for sharing your experience's and the wood is really kool ;).

thecfarm · February 21, 2007, 09:01:32 PM

That is some interesting looking wood.I would like to cut some of that on my mill.Keep the pictures coming,please.Would like to see how you cut the cants with a chainsaw.Seems odd that people will work like that and for so little.I realize it's a whole differant way of life over there.

Greenedive · February 21, 2007, 10:21:51 PM

Jim,
Just out of curiousity...how did you end up down there...if you don't mind my asking. The Amazon has always fascinated me.....I take it you are not with one of the BIG players....I know International Paper moved a lot of it's operations down to South America. How does a guy from NW Wisconsin end up in such an exotic locale?

solodan · February 21, 2007, 10:44:28 PM

Quote from: Greenedive on February 21, 2007, 10:21:51 PM

...how did you end up down there...

Quote from: jim king on February 21, 2007, 06:56:16 PM

Timberland in the tropics runs about $12 an acre. .

Quote from: jim king on February 19, 2007, 09:30:09 PM

...100 men at $5 a day for a total of $500.

I'm there. :D

jim king · February 22, 2007, 09:16:20 AM

Ed K: Everyone hears all the horrible things about places like this because you only hear things from people telling horrible stories to raise money. In reality there are millions of people who live in places like this and they dont know it is a problem.

Greenedive: When about 35 years younger I used to be in the prefab housing business and was never to thrilled about it. One day a customer walked in from Nigeria and was telling me all about the great business in Nigeria. I bought a ticket and took a look and then ended up selling the business in the States and staying for 8 years until one night we were on the wrong side of a coup.
Then we came to South America and have been here ever since. My wife and I get back to Turtle lake and Balsam Lake WI once in a while but after being out of the country for so many years we feel like strangers up there.

solodan: And cold beer is $1 a litre or 4 four $3.

The photos are of Christmas of our shop crew. The two old ones in the back center are my wife and myself, the only ones with red on. Every year the tradition is that each employee gets a Christmas basket of food for his families Christmas dinner and an extra weeks pay. This may seem a bit strange to people from the north but the fact that the boss cares enough to give them a basket of special food items that they would normally never buy is one of the most important things in thier lives. We live where the most exotic fruit in the world grows and one of the most important things in the basket is canned peaches. Figure that out.

jim king · February 22, 2007, 10:56:50 AM

thecfarm: It took a while but found a photo of cutting the cants.

thecfarm · February 22, 2007, 08:51:02 PM

Thank-you.Looks like in the fore ground there are not many big trees that I can see.Was that tree down all ready?Looks like a jungle there.Keep the pictures coming.I'm enjoying this.

Greenedive · February 22, 2007, 09:28:49 PM

Thanks for the info, Jim,
That was a ballsy thing to pull up stakes and pack up and move to a foreign country like that. I admire you.

Quote

Quote from: jim king on February 22, 2007, 09:16:20 AM
We live where the most exotic fruit in the world grows and one of the most important things in the basket is canned peaches. Figure that out.

Peaches are probably pretty 'exotic' to them, huh?

solodan · February 22, 2007, 09:30:27 PM

Quote from: jim king on February 22, 2007, 09:16:20 AM

solodan: And cold beer is $1 a litre or 4 four $3.

[

Wow, beer is real expensive compared to what someone makes, and very very expensive compared to the price of land.

I fiqure that based on what an average person makes around here, beer would cost about $40 litre

, and based on land prices here, beer would cost about $10K a litre

. I'm glad you can still walk into a bar here and get a cold one for $2. :D

That wood is real purdy! And so is that jungle. I wish I had it in me to pick up and move to a 3rd world country. I feel blessed that I am able to live and own property in California, but a person really has to struggle here to afford it here. I sometimes wonder if it is worth it though, cause my house looks like a shack in a third world country anyway. :D Now I just need to convince my wife and kids. ;)

And, I sure feel lazy after seeing how hard others have to work for a living. :-[

Greg Cook · February 22, 2007, 10:42:10 PM

All the do-gooder, movie-star-turned-champion of the opressed people who see how people live in remote parts of the world (what WE call third-world) and compare the remote peoples live to the American (or worse, California) standard of living, and start saying these poor people can't live like this! They can't survive! They can't prosper, and couldn't POSSIBLY be HAPPY. Let's Americanize their life. Raise their wages to US minimum wage. Stop child labor, and save those trees while we're here.

Well, raising their wages by 500% is practically welfare, and in many parts of the world, families are dependent on those children's wages to keep from starving. If the kids can't work in a factory, what will their parents have them do next to earn money? Not a pretty thought, huh?

At least they're not having to take pills every day as a PREVENTATIVE for the heartburn and indigestion they KNOW they will have due to the stress in their lives.

Just wish these "save-the-world" people would mind their own business, and stop trying to save the world. The world was doing OK before they were born.

Just my nickel's worth......

Greg

jim king · February 23, 2007, 11:34:14 AM

thecfarm: The jungle can vary from fairly open like after the leaves have dropped in the fall up north to so thick that you have to machete your way thru it like an old Tarzan movie. As cocaine is probably the biggest income producer in the area and a major factor in deforestation there are a lot of second growth areas where the cocaine has been abandoned and look like this area. The WWF and others are inadvertantly promoting the cocaine industry with thier constant efforts not to let the people develope a legal timber industry. As there are no other jobs and cocaine is in bigger demand in the States and other areas everyday a father is going to do what he has to do to keep the family going.

This is a typical one room country school that also doubles as a clinic. Do they look sad ? If these kids could not go home and work after school the families could not make it. I think the majority of retired Americans today worked as children and it made a great country -so much that that American child labor turned into what is now popularly and commonly called the "Greatest Generation". There is no welfare here, it is work and eat or starve.

This is a little workbench we made for our new advertising and when done with it we gave it to the kids at the Orphanage.

This is another photo piece donated to the Orphanage for the little girls. These kids all have thier little jobs also.

johncinquo · March 13, 2007, 10:39:21 AM

Sounds pretty interesting way to live from an American or other foreigner standpoint. I dont think it could be done today though. Pack up, move to the Amazon, and live and make a living. I think there might be a lot more restrictions and red tape to get through than there was 25 years ago. You have probably seen it get tougher and tougher as the years have gone by, with restrictions and laws, taxes and licenses. Everyone wants their cut of the pie, and legislating is always the easiest way to get it.
I can admire that you put those people to work and help with the school and medical issues. I am sure there are people who admonish you for paying $5 a day to work that hard. Short vision and small minds will never realize how much better a living you are providing for another sect of humans that would otherwise have a far lower standard of living without that.
After 35 years you must have kids or even grandkids running around. How do you feel about them not growing up in N America and having all the "benefits" of a modern life? I'd like to chuck my kids gameboy in the river and hand him a crosscut saw for a week sometime.
I dont see anyone today selling off, taking a couple hundred grand down there, and starting up a successful operation. Maybe as a small investment in an ongoing operation but without having someone on the inside already running it I dont think anyone would have a chance nowadays.
I couldn't do it. At 35+ chainsaws I wouldn't be able to pay all the tax! :D

jim king · March 13, 2007, 01:13:19 PM

johncinquo:
Everything gets a little more difficult every year as every year we get a new batch of very educated engineers and foresters out of the local colleges but very few intellrgent ones. The whole mess with the ecologist industry like the WWF and others also adds problems , misinformation and confusion.

The other day on this site someone explained what a forester is and I had never heard it put that way. They said a forester is a person who works to make a forest more productive. Makes sense but I never thought of it that way. I guess mainly because here the ecologist contamination has infiltrated the colleges and foresters come out with the idea of how to earn a living from the forest by collecting nuts , leaves etc. and not cutting trees.

Everyone talks about "possibly" "eventually" "sure to happen" etc. etc. and reality never gets into the picture. Of all the years here I have only seen one natural medicine that works and it is one for diabetes that I have seen cure diabetes many times. Whenever the witch docters get sick they head for town for some modern medicine, they are not fools.

As for someone coming down and stating a new life in a new country we see people all the time try it. The majority fail not only financially but fall apart physicaly due to drugs and other problems. This place eats up Gringos about as fast as they arrive.

As for paying the people $5 a day what do you do ? It is the pay rate set buy the government for labor and we pay about double the minimum wage to our shop people plus all benifits, insurance, retirement etc. and the people live better than they ever thought possible. If we were to pay more the other industries would lynch us.

You also have to consider that the mentality is different here . Just one example. My wife and I live in a very nice home with restored furniture from the late 1800`s and in general live well. Here the people think we aew a bit crazy. Why would you want all those things to care for and keep clean when you can get by with a simple roof and maybe a couple of walls and live easy.

Yes we have a grandaughter in college. I just talked to her the other night , she is taking a course in Ireland. Not getting old , I have made it.