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Is this a normal felling?

Started by Roger_T, June 24, 2001, 06:31:22 AM

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Roger_T

Mornin,

I was out cruising the web this morning and happened across this picture of a log on the ground.
The thing that struck me funny bout this picture was that the wedge cut was on the top of the down log.  Now in everything that i have seen about felling logs, (which is very little) this seems to go against the grain on felling.  Shouldn't the wedge cut actually be on the bottom of the log when the tree is laying on the ground?  I've only cut a couple of 10" trees and managed to get them on the ground with no one gettin hurt and nothing gettin damaged.  

If you follow this link, you'll be able to see the progression of the pics as they were posted, i dont think they are in the correct order and its hard to tell exactly what the guy is doing.

http://www.rivercityhardwoods.com/logging.html

Anyways, thanks for your help and guidance.

Roger

Jeff

Roger it looks to me like just an open face notch that is widely used for safety reasons.
check out this link for notch comparison.
http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/logging_advisor/manual/felling/cuts/notches/notches.html

What bothers me is the pics of the skidder and fowarder wading across that stream. I don't know what's O.K. in Iowa, but that violates any thing I have ever learned about BMP's (Best Management practices)go to http://www.michiganforestry.com/Default.htm and click on SFI education to learn about BMP
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Roger_T

It still looks like the tree went over backwards, or did a 180 degree rotation on the way down.  Or am I just looking at the picture wrong?

Roger

Ron Wenrich

The river fording doesn't seem to be too bad, since there are stoned approaches.  I've seen this in areas that have a stone bottom and it doesn't seem to be too much of a problem.

There isn't much of a wedge on this tree.  For veneer quality trees, some fellers will use a minimum of a notch so the notch doesn't effect the actual grade on the first log.  Not a good practice for inexperienced cutters.

Considering the height of the stump that is being left, they could use a Humboldt style of notch, which is used extensively on the West Coast.  A Humboldt puts the open face on the stump side, and not the log side of a cut.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Where to you see the stone approaches? I see vegetation to the waters edge. I also see a faerly high bank, which usually indicated deeper water. I grew up on a river. If the bank slopes gently into the river, the water will be shallow at that point. If you have a steep back, the water will be deep. I can not see that skidder climbing out in those pics with out causing a soil disturbance.

Also, how ab out the oil and greese and sludge, that more then likely is built up in that skidders belly pan? It probably got a good cleaning here.

Roger I see what you mean about the notch on top of the log now.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

Roger I went back and looked at those photos again.

If the picture with the caption that reads "Tree Waiting to be Felled" is also the picture of the downed tree, I bet it did go over backwards. I know, camera angles can change everything, but look at that photo. You can see the notch on this side, but it looks to me like that tree is leaning the wrong way, and has all the weight on the backcut side.
Also in one of the earlier photos, it looks like they have a tree hung up.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Tom

I like detective work.  It's so imperfect in the woods because of all the variables but it's fun to try.

The log on the ground labeled "felled tree" has an open face on the top, I think, because it rolled/twisted as it fell.  This could be a result of the hinge being thicker on one side than the other although there is not much difference.

You will notice that the pith of the tree is off-center and is closest to the ground.  The wood above it is Reaction Wood.  That indicates that either the tree leaned in that direction and/or the forest opening was in that direction.  The tree put on more girth on that side because of more sunlight and food or it was attempting to straighten itself up.

The heart shake parallels the hinge and I have found that most heart shakes will be horizontal to the reaction or compression wood.  (I take advantage of this when I saw a log to insure that the board doesn't contain both reaction and tension wood. It fits the way I take the board because it doesn't interfere.  It kind of divides the two types of wood.)

The open face seems to be very shallow, a technique I have heard discussed on other web sites.  Most of the loggers don't approve, favoring a wedge that opens up as much as 2/3's of the tree to insure that gravity  will lift the back of the tree off of the stump.  A Logger in Maine was touting this method not long ago and ran into some pretty stiff dissapproval.

So, if the reaction wood is on the bottom of the lean of the tree and the wedge is in the reaction wood then this tree fell toward the wedge and then rolled.

The first picture in the series, just below the bridge pictures, shows cuts around the tree as if the buttress has been trimmed to facilitate the saw.

That really has nothing to do with felling except to keep the buttress from missguiding the tree once it is committed.

The other pictures are too dark to define what is going on.  I am really puzzled by the 5th picture down.  Sticking a saw on the downside of a leaning tree is asking for trouble.  A good way to lose a good saw at the very least.

The equipment fording the stream would be against BMP's as I know them.  That would be considered a navigable stream around here and the way to get to the other side would be to load the equipment up and take it around.  It would be difficult to get approval to build  bridge over something like that.

I have noticed that it is still popular to "ford" in Arkansas and Tenn. and N.C. but the bottoms are rock based there and perhaps less damage is incurred by fording than building a bridge.  This is in Iowa and I've only been there once and don't remember what the land looked like. Maybe what they are doing is ok but it wouldn't be around my home.

Jeff, I thought that was a hung tree too.

timberbeast

The tree which appears to be hung up,  could have been on its way down,  rolling along the branches of another tree,  but if so,  the feller is in a dangerous position.  I think the "felled tree"  went backwards.  It happens.  Also could have pinched the saw and hooked a cable higher up and winched it,  and sawed the rest off later.  Note that the stump is conspicuously missing in the picture.
Where the heck is my axe???

Bill Johnson

Jeff
I have to echo your concerns about the machinery wading through the creek. To me if you are fording a creek the the water should only be about half way up the tires, any thing deeper than that and you are probably washing grease, oil and fuel into the water.  Now I can only assume that the states have similar guidelines, etc as we do that restrict putting deleterious substances into water bodies and those shots show a good way for that to happen.
To my mind those types of pictures do not really speak well for the company.
This is only my opinion and I can stand to be corrected.
Bill
Bill

Ron Scott

"Michigan BMP's":

Fording should be avoided if at all possible, as water quality will be affected.

Fords may be used only when culverts or bridges are not feasible, and when banks are stable and bottoms hard.

Stabilize stream bank approach with rock or other material.The streambed may need to be reinforced to bear intended traffic.

"Wisconsin BMP's":

Use fords for crossing dry streambeds or where fording would cause minimal water quality impacts.

Locate fords where streambanks are low.

Streambed should have a firm rock or gravel base. Otherwise, install stabilizing material such as reinforced concrete planks, crushed rock, riprap, or rubber mats on streambeds.

~Ron

KiwiCharlie

G'day Guys,

Jumping in here late but thought I would put my peice in.
By the photos it appears that we are looking at two trees being felled.  Definitely one of them is hung up, I know I would not be standing there like that if the tree was falling!
"Tree waiting to be felled" even looks like it has the notch cut already, and appears to be leaning the wrong way already.  Camera angles can be deceiving though.
It is possible to "spin" a tree if wanted (by the final cut, to spin/turn the tree away from a building for instance.  Tom refers to this method) which would account for the notch being on the top, but I doubt it was done here, seeing the other photos!  It is a small notch also, but that depends on your style.  The notch can be small as long as you have the power in your saw, and razor sharp blade, to be able to complete the back cut as the tree starts falling (ie keep up) to avoid too much fibre pull.
Sawing on the pinched side of a tree is never a good idea, as in one of the photos - I have seen a tree fall from the stump in this situation as the saw man tried to salvage a hung up tree....scary.  From memory he wrecked his bar in the process!
I would have to say in my opinion this is not the best set of photos to show a budding saw man, but at least the guy is wearing some safety gear!
I know nothing about fording streams so will say nothing!!
Cheers
Charlie.
Walk tall and carry a big Stihl.

DanJ

Ok, being a West Coast Tree Feller, I know a little about falling trees! Yes, cutting on the low side of the tree (cutting where the tree leans over you) is prohibited, but one may make the undercut (wedge or notch, as you guys call them) from the low if he cannot achieve chain saw access from the high side.
ALL backcuts or finishing cuts (the last cut before the tree hits the ground) MUST be made from the high side whenever possible, unless you want you saw to look like a steam roller ran over it! As for the undercut being on the top of the log, there are many variables that may have caused this, but what I think it is, is the undercut did not have enough angle and closed before the tree was close enough to the ground. Since the tree was leaning this way, obviously most of the foliage was on this side. The foliage of a tree acts like a sail and will pull the tree around 180 degrees every time if there is no holding wood left to keep the tree anchored to the stump while it is falling. This is where the shallow undercut comes into play, when the undercuts met (before they were supposed to in this case) the holding wood was pulled out from the stump and tree (half is pulled from either one usually) leaving the falling tree separated from the stump (where a lot of potential danger is situated here because all control is lost over the falling tree, the safety we have is too keep control of the tree --with the holding wood -- until it is as close the the ground as possible!) where it was free to spin around!

Does this make any sense?

DJ

Tom

Makes a lot of sense Dan.

I think we all agree that this is not the picture of felling a tree that a man should be proud of enough to publish it.

Welcome to the Forestry Forum!

We could use another tree feller. (that makes a pretty good joke, heh heh, tree feller) well I mean tree feller and tree fellow both so I guess it doesn't matter how it's interpreted.  

Hope you stick around...we have some pretty good tree fellow's here. ;D

DanJ

Tom,

Thanks for the warm welcome! I was looking for a forum that dealt with the forestry industry, and a couple from the WOODWEB forum recommended this forum to me! So far, I like it a lot, I'm young, and I would like to learn as much about all the aspects of forestry as I can!

DJ

Tom

You should be able to find a lot of educational information here if you can read in between the lines.  We have been trying not to get too dry and textbook.  It seems to be a lot more fun when you can joke around a bit.  I'm young too  :D and learn something here everyday.  We'll do it together.  See you next time.

Oh, by the way, there is a chainsaw ghuru who has a chainsaw quiz, class and general information on the front page of Timberbuyer.  Scan that page when you come to the forum and you will find a lot of neat stuff.  You can link to it at the bottom of this Forum page as well.

UNCLEBUCK

great q & a !  I am glad i read all this and it will make me more alert in the woods, veery good stuff ! :P
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

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