iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

A Couple of Woodshop Questions

Started by Norm, February 10, 2007, 12:24:07 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Norm

I would like to get some opinions of what to buy for my new shop. I want to have a air compressor and dust collecter for it. They will reside in a small room outside of the main shop area. I have the smaller portable compressors and would like to get one that's permanent and plumbed into the shop. Or maybe tell me which way you'd do it if given the chance.

The dust collecter will send the air outside to a bunker area, it's on my farm so I thought of just dumping into the bunker and cleaning out with my fel. I want it to be plenty big so that I can add a logosol or similar moulder to it in the future without having to upgrade the sizing.


scsmith42

Hey Norm - sounds like a cool project, and thanks for asking for our input (always love to spend someone else's $)!

Re compressor, I've found that storage is as much, if not more important than CFM.  My main shop has an 80 gallon tank, 27CFM 2 stage.  However, I do a lot of automotive and farm tractor repair, so high pressures and fast recovery are important to me.  The glass bead cabinet requires the highest CFM.

Another option for a compressor would be something smaller, but with added storage tanks.  Check to see what the max CFM is that you will be using, and then get something larger than that.  Day in and day out, northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company seems to have the best prices on compressors.  I'm partial to IR, but have had no complaints with my industrial CH.

The bad thing about the big compressors is that they take a major voltage surge when they start - hence a hit to your electric bill.  A smaller compressor that ran more frequently might actually be more cost effective.  For a typical home shop, I'd try to have at least 15 CFM and 24 is even better.  Again - storage is more important than CFM here.

If you're going to be  using a lot of air, consider some type of dryer after the compressor.  Putting all of this outside the main shop is a great idea.  Also, consider some type of either automatic water drain valve or plumbing a valve inside the shop so that you can quickly and easily drain the tank water daily. 

Re the dust collection, from what I've seen Oneida has the best reputation.  Their web site has a lot of good guidance on it re cfm and pressure, and line sizes.  The biggest pain in my system is in emptying the sacks.  When I'm planing rough sawn lumber they fill up about every 15 minutes (at least it seems like it), so your dumping into an outside pit is a great idea.  You might want to think about locating the pit far enough from the building so as to minimize any fire hazard.

If you have an old dump truck or trailer, rather than dumping into a pit you might want to consider dumping into the dump truck (or even a manure spreader)  Unless it has high sides you'll need some type of screen to contain the shavings).  The nice thing about the spreader is that it makes it easy to distribute the shavings out on your pastures, thus improving your topsoil and reducing your overall time to handle waste.

Good luck!

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Larry

For the shop air compressor I'm running a two stage IR with an 80 gallon tank.  Puts out way more air at 175 psi than I'll ever have a use for.  I had intensions of doing a little sandblasting when I first bought it.  That got old and hot real quick.  Lot easier to pay to have it done.  It is extremely loud...when I move it to Arkansas it's going in it's own little building.  If I had to replace it I would be more than happy with a single stage with about a 30 gallon tank...and most important...quiet.

For dust collection I have a big old blower off a piece of farm equipment.  It's belt driven by a 5 HP motor.  It's loud to...about the same decibel level as a B52 taking off.  I blow the dust outside into a trailer.  The fan is heavy gauge metal and can withstand direct impacts from knots and chunks of wood.  Timber King sells a blower...think Bibby has one maybe OWW does to?  The best that I have seen is couple of models Suffolk Machine makes...think they copied my design.  Run 6" duct work to your shaper, planer, and jointer.  I would call Logosol and ask for there recommendations for dust collection before I bought anything.

You could set it up with a blower just for the planer and moulder than use a conventional dust collector with a cyclone for everything else.  That would keep that expensive heat and AC where it belongs.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Burlkraft

If ya really want quiet and quick recovery and yer budget will allow maybe you should look at a screw compressor. I put one in at work and I realize I should have done it years ago.  ::) ::)  We have just about 1 1/2 miles of air piping between all the shops. Water was a problem also with our 2 lungers.....the screw compressor has an a/c unit that evaporates the water out of the compressed air before it charges it into the lines. Air wrenches last twice the time they did before. ;D ;D ;D
Why not just 1 pain free day?

Norm

Thanks for all the tips guys. :)

Since this is going into a new building I thought I'd do a little pre planning. I learned a bunch on my last one I built and hope to incorporate those ideas and pick your guys brains for stuff I didn't put in that one. Burlcraft I like the ideas your using on your new addition, hopefully when you get further along I can talk you into showing me some pictures of how it turns out.

Justin L

I have a small portable compressor, and it won't start if it's too cold(40* or below) without tripping the overload. So keep it warm.  Be sure all lines slope back toward the compressor- I just removed & thawed one out yesterday that was full of ice. It is in my shop, and it still froze...yea, in my shop!   My main compressor is an 80gal IR with an old 100gal tank for extra capacity.

For the dust collector, a three HP blower with a 9" intake will fun a four head moulder as long as you don't have bags on it to slow it down. More is better, but it gets me by.

Plan on moving the tools down the road. Even if you don't plan too :)  I wish I would have ran larger conduit with junction boxes every ten feet so a new line could be ran easily. Or just don't buy anymore tools...:(

Heated floor.


I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant! :)

Dave Shepard

I like the idea of a bunker for the shavings, they are in big demand around here. Sell 'em by the truckload. I don't know how much air you need, but I would look for an older I-R T-30 type unit. I have come across a bunch lately that could be bought cheap, and they last a long time. If you are going to use a ton of air the screw types are very popular. Some that I have seen run all the time on a variable freq. drive and just spin up the rpms to match demand. This makes for a quiet and energy efficient unit. Also big bucks, from what I've heard. I can't say much about blowers, other than they are an obnoxious necessity. I know one guy who does a ton of planing and moulding work that has a 30 hp unit up in the rafters of rickety building and I swear the whole place leans over to one side when he starts it. :o


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Brad_S.

FWIW, Code Enforcement/Fire Marshall wouldn't allow me to blow chips into a bunker or pile. He insisted I have a covered receiving area for the chips/dust. His concern was the chips getting damp and the possibility of spontaneous combustion. You may want to check the regulations in your area about this.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

thurlow

Don't want to hi-jack the thread, but I'd like to ax Larry a querstion about his blower.  What's it off of?  I've got an old 2-row picker (salvaged);  I've thought about taking the fan off of it and mounting a 3-5 horse motor and using it for a dust collector.  The cotton didn't go through the fan, but was propelled by something similar to a venturi effect. Is this something like what you've got?  I know you said the dust on yours went thru the fan...............
Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

Larry

The only thing I know about the fan is that it's AC orange and came out of a farm equipment graveyard.  The fan is 5" X 16".  Played with the speed a little when I first built it and found I could move more than enough air at a fairly slow speed.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

JimBuis

I recommend a good hose reel or two for getting the air where you need it.  I personally don't like running pipe for a permanent air supply system.  I think the hose reels meet most needs and are more adaptable as your shop changes over time.

For the same reasons, I like to use electric cord reels and have them mounted over head.  My current shop was wired with outlets in the floor about 40 years ago.  They thought being in the floor would make their location more adaptable to shop needs.  However, they are never where I need them.  Besides, they are two prong, so much of what I have won't plug into them anyway.

You didn't really ask this, but I recommend having as much equipment on wheels as possible.  90% of my shop was setup permanent.  Now when I am needing to reconfigure the shop it is a royal pain.  It has taken me ten times as long to make changes as it should have.

Good luck.

Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

TexasTimbers

Norm I don't know anything about screw compressors but I wish I had so I could have considered it. Not that I regret my purchase I don't - I love my shop compressor. Not taking into account the screw compressor which I trust Burlkraft on, but the one Scott described is what I have too, the only thing I would add is to make sure you get a low RPM compressor 1725 RPM versus the 3250. They are gobs quieter and the motors last longer.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Norm

I want to thank you guys for all the good tips. I know nothing about compressors so will be doing some homework on your suggestions. I doubt I'll be doing any work that needs tons of air but one never knows and I'd rather go overkill than undersized. Thanks for the suggestions Jim, I had considered the in floor recepticles but wondered if it was a good idea or not.

Thurlow don't ever worry about hijacking any thread of mine. I always feel that I learn more from the side conversations than what the original question brings up. Besides I'm terrible about it, it got so bad years ago that Patty drew a circle in the corner just above head high and made me hold my nose there until I learned my lesson. ;D

scsmith42

Norm, what do you plan to use your shop for?  Woodworking?  automotive?  Welding?  Machine Work?  ????

Also, do you have any rough dimensions yet that you can share?

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

scgargoyle

Here in FL, humidity is always a factor in compressor set-up. I had mine outside the shop for noise control, but I piped the air intake inside the shop for drier air. I ran iron pipe throughout the shop, and had drains all over the place. I also use a moisture trap that holds a filter like a roll of toilet paper- in fact, you can use a roll of toilet paper to save money. I like the big, slow turning compressors that no one seems to make anymore. I had one years ago that turned @ 500 RPM- much quieter and less annoying. There are lots of opinions on rigid piping for air, but iron pipe is the only legal material in some areas. I've used copper and PVC without problems, but they aren't code in some areas. Iron pipe also works well to condense moisture out of the air. As for the dust collector- the bigger the duct work, the better. You want to start out big near the vacuum source, then step down the size as you work your way out. The shop I work in now has 4" for the whole system, and it's lame. In my shop, I started w/ 8", and stepped down to 4" further out. It's similar to HVAC ducting.
I hope my ship comes in before the dock rots!

sawguy21

Planning a new shop is always fun.  8)
We installed a larger piston compressor in a second floor storage area, only place we had room for it, but that created problems. The room got very hot during the summer and the machine was constantly cycling with a lot of water in the lines, even with the auto drain. We finally mounted a Donaldson air filter on the outside of the building and ducted the air to the pump. It made a huge difference with less water, shorter cycling and a cooler pump. I could actually touch it.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Don_Papenburg

I have a 15hp T30 in the basement of my shop with a 3" pvc running to the attic but interupted with a air cleaner on the shop ceiling so I can service it without climbing into the attic.  I also have a 3"pvc pipeing air down to the compressor fan  for cooling air .   then I ran a 1" copper line up and around the shop, returning to the supply pipe , with outlets every 10foot.  the outlets are taken off the top of the pipe and are 3/4" pipe drops. each has a shut off ball valve and a drain valve with both sizes of outlets that I use.           Definatly look into the screw type compressor .  My 185 cfm IR compressor pump is smaller than the 15hp motor on my T30  . actualy about the size of a gallon and a half jug.They are very efficiant at producing air .  Other than a screw I would look into a two stage compressor.
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

RichlandSawyer

Hey Norm,

  This is a picture of the cyclone i built for my shop. The dust swirls around and drops into the garbage can on the bottom. The lid of the can has a gasket to create an air lock but if you replace the can with a rotary valve aka. star valve you could drop the dust into a covered trailer keeping it dry and and not end up with half the farm covered with dust on a windy day.

Dee says hi and tell Patty we both said hey!!!





P.S. check out that green grass almost forgot what it looked like.

Every log i open up, a board falls out!!!

TexasTimbers

that's the exact model DC I have. Looks like the same company. An import co. called SECO out of Los Angeles I bet. 2HP 230V model ???

I was happy with mine for years but have dramatically outgrown it. Gonna dedicate it to the router only this spring when I install the 20HP monster I have sitting in the corner, for the rest of shop.

That little thing served me well though and never missed a beat.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

OneWithWood

Norm, are you starting a shop war?  Our existing shops seem pretty similar.  If you build a bigger, better, fancier one I might feel compelled to keep up  :D

Here is a link to check out for dust collection.  I found it very usefull when I planned and installed my system.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Index.cfm

Larry is correct.  I used a 5hp blower that I got from Timberking.  The Suffolk units are really great but pricey.

For a compressor I picked up a Sanborn, single stage, oil lubed, 80 gallon unit that was on sale at the local Menard's.  It is much quieter than the oiless unti I have in the other workshop.  If you are going to use various air tools at various stations it makes a lot of sense to run lines to each station.  I used high pressure pvc, but many warn against this.  Black iron is definately safer.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

TexasTimbers

Yep the pentz system is impressive. And if you want any of the info or products you better not tarry. He has been known to get frustrated and yank the whole darned site for months at a time.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

dewwood

Norm,

A lot of good info here.  I would also suggest the iron pipe for running your air supply with quick connects spaced conveniently.  You might try ebay for ideas on compressors they have a lot and it gives you some idea of what is aviailable and pricing, you don't have to buy there but it has lots of makes usually.  On your dust collector try contacting a heating supply house, I got all of my piping from a heating wholesaler from 4" to 12" with blast gates elbows etc and they had it all in stock.  The same piping from a company that sends me a catalog was about four times as much money.  The cyclones are nice but if you are blowing it directly outside a blower will do the job.

One thing you may already have but if not you may want to consider 3 phase electric.  I run a 30hp converter and can run several 10 & 15 horsepower motors at the same time.  With your future plans it might be easier to install it now and be ready for any future needs without having to rewire everything.

Good luck and we want some pictures as the project progresses.

Dewey
Selling hardwood lumber, doing some sawing and drying, growing the next generation of trees and enjoying the kids and grandkids.

Larry

I have learned from making mistakes so I'll pass the information along in hopes somebody can benefit.  When I bought my compressor I decided to plumb it with schedule 40 PVC...my compressor puts out 175 psi or maybe a little more and the schedule 40 was rated to withstand a lot more pressure than that.  So...I plumb in a simple system...right proud of my work.  Within a week, a fitting had cracked from the pressure.  Over a years time another several fittings cracked and I junked the whole system.  A plumber told me the fittings are usually rated a lot lower that the pipe.  He said I might have been all right if I had used schedule 80.  About the same time, I was told PVC is dangerous...and this is the reasoning, which I believe has some merit.  If there is a fire, the PVC can melt and become a blowtorch.  In addition, PVC can shatter from an impact and act just like shrapnel.

I'm good at sweating copper so that is what I use now...no idea if it is better than iron pipe.  Somebody else will have to educate us on that.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Norm

I have been just a little bummed out about having to move my shop again but knew it was just a matter of time. Getting a new one is nice but to tell the truth I hope this is the last time I have to move it. My plan is to have morton buildings or cleary slap up the shell and then do the inside finish work myself. Since Robert's pretty much done with his I expect he'll want to come out and get some ideas for the new one he's going to have to build to keep up with the Folkerts'. :D I'm thinking of it being 48X72 with some being storage and some being shop. Here's a link to the look I'm thinking of. Shop Building

Dewey luckily for me I had 3 phase installed when we bought our farm. It was expensive at the time but I'm sure glad I did. My mill is 3 phase and nothing like flipping a switch to start running. I've always run my own gas pipe and can sweat copper as well but am not sure which will be better. I would have thought copper to be cheaper to run but not sure now with metal prices being so high.

I have the same blower as bibby but have never installed it. Since I'm just blowing into a bunker do you guys think that will be strong enough? The reasoning for the bunker is that I can cover the sawdust with a layer of manure to make it compost. I have no shortage of it and the gardens would sure benefit from the additional fiber.

ksu_chainsaw

As for a compressor, go with either an older slow speed 2-stage pump, or a screw type compressor- they will outlast an oilless pump and be a lot quieter.  An automatic drain and an air dryer will make everything last longer.  I ran copper in my garage, and have worked with both pvc and black iron pipe- any of them work the same in my book- just make sure you put lots of drops in- every 10' works good, as most places sell only 10' pieces now- instead of a coupler-put in a T fitting.
As for electrical work, put all your wiring into 1"+ conduit- NO ROMEX!- and put in a 4way box every 5-10 ft.  This will let you reduce the amount of extension cords that you need, and allow you to change your wiring in the future when you upgrade tools- its easier to pull an additional 10ga through conduit that is already there, instead of having to drill through the wall.  It also gives you an additional safety factor, as if you attach something to the wall, you know where the wiring is, since the conduit is on the outside of the wall.
Dust collection- try to find a system that has a cyclone and a filter bag, and will circulate the air back into the shop- especially nice in the winter.  If you have too much air going out of the shop, it will hold your doors shut and might even crack a window or two.  ;D- know that from experience.
If i can get out of this snowbank and get to work tomorrow, I will try to get some pictures of my shops dust collector for some ideas.

Charles

Thank You Sponsors!