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Author Topic: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging  (Read 3424 times)

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Offline rbhunter

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Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« on: February 09, 2007, 02:14:33 am »
I have a paper to write on comparisons. I am wanting to do a comparison on horse logging vs using a skidder. I have some ideas but thought I would see what other ideas might forum members might have. This will cover the similarities and the differences.
"Said the robin to the sparrow, I wonder why it must be, these anxious human beings rush around and worry so?"
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Offline Woodhog

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2007, 10:50:36 am »
A few years ago I had a copy of a study done by (I think) it was the Forestry Department of the New Brunswick government.

It was all worked out the way the professional foresters write up that sort of thing, had comparsioons with wood productivity per man hour and that type of thing.

It compared the horse teams to the mechanical stuff.

I will look around for it or maybe someone else remembers that study...

You could probably request a copy from them...

http://www.uky.edu/OtherOrgs/AppalFor/draftl.html[/url]

Here a bit of info

Offline Rick Alger

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2007, 01:07:42 pm »
Great question for a wintry day.

The fact sheet that Woodhog posted says a lot.

A few other differences -

When wood is dropped for a horse, it is almost always single tree selection, and it is felled in a carefully aimed direction to make it easy for the horse to pull out and not scar up other trees.

When wood is dropped for skidder it's almost always group selection. Often trees are notched and pushed over by the machine.  There are usually smashed and splintered remainders.

A skid trail for a single horse is about five feet wide . For a skidder it's at least ten.

Limbing and slash management for a horse job means limbing the tree where it falls and keeping brush out of the trails. Limbing and slash management for a skidder often means limbing in the trail to fill in ruts and wet spots, making it less pleasant to walk on later.

The landing for a horse job can be very small because the volume produced between truckloads is small. For a skidder job the landing has to be much larger because the greater production means more sorts and greater need for storage area.

Good luck on your paper.


Offline rbhunter

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2007, 02:46:26 pm »
I have alot of information on horse logging from romaneke and rural heritage. Can anyone tell me the costs for skidder logging and also for production capabilities of any kind.

By the way everyone, I love this forum. Someday I hope to get a saw mill but until that time I check this forum several times a day to see what is happening. I also like to read about forestry. I want to thank those who have already posted to my question.

Thanks to JeffB for this forum. Also thanks to everyone who writes on it.  Also watch out Bibbyman I may have to show up sometime to see one in action. I am only about twenty miles away or less and I have been tempted (I will call first to see if it is OK if I decide to).  I also like the galleries and links to personnel sites I have found on profiles.

Thanks

Randy
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"Said the sparrow to the robin, Friend I think it must be, they have no heavenly father, such as cares for you and me."
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Offline thecfarm

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2007, 09:15:07 pm »
You can do a nice job with a skidder or a forwarder,nothing that can compare to horses though.Just depends who is operating the machines,be it a skidder or a chainsaw.there is a guy I know that has horses.He's lucky I even let him drive by my house.He makes a mess.Drops the trees anyways he can and chops the top off and leaves it.Just takes the gravey and goes.I have a logger coming next week and he does a super job.You don't find the mess that alot leave and that I have seen.I really don't know how much he can get out in a day.Welcome to the forum.
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Offline snowman

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2007, 11:33:53 am »
Theres something between a skidder and a horse, a small tractor.Skid trails smaller than for a skidder, the machines lighter, the skids are smaller, probably about the same as a horse. Any adverse at all Ive only got 1 or 2 logs.Also with a small tractor your not relying on power to compensate for poor falling, you have to pick your shots and hit your lays just like for a horse.One more thing is with a tractor you can winch things from a long distance, no skid trail at all.I think a small tractor is best of both worlds, it's an iron horse.

Offline Phorester

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2007, 02:13:28 pm »

I don't think there is a comparison.  Both have their place and they are not the same place.

Animal logging will never replace machines on average sized and bigger logging jobs, machines are not as good as animal logging on very small logging jobs.  Animal logging is limited to level or very gentle slopes and shorter skidding distances.  Machines can go on more average logging ground and steeper slopes, longer skidding distances. Animal logging will never reach the production levels of machine logging, so it's not as cost efficient as machine skidders.   Machine logging will never reach the limited ground disturbance of animals.  Exception to the last observation..... there is a prototype machine made in one of the Scandinavion countries that is six-legged, very maneuverable on uneven ground, that shows promise.  But too expensive now for production logging.

I'm not anti-animal logging.  I just feel that it has a limited place in forestry, although an important place.  Maybe an analogy would be that there is a place for the small-time house remodeling company and a place for the companies that build skyscrapers.  Different scales, each one important.
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Offline rbhunter

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2007, 03:35:45 pm »
My view was pretty much the same. There are times and places for each to be used and in some situations a combination can be used. Although the start up cost and maintenace is cheaper with horses by far, it is still cheaper to use a skidder if the job is big enough because of the amount of work they can accomplish compared to the work of horse loggers in a days time. The environment is another factor to consider when using selective forestry thinning. Horse logging or combination could be the answer in this situation.

Also another person pointed out the use of a small tractor inplace of a team. There are always other options.

I am new and still in the wishful thinking stage so my posts are from what I have read.

I like to read about sawmilling and also forestry management. I also love draft horses.

Thanks for the posts.
"Said the robin to the sparrow, I wonder why it must be, these anxious human beings rush around and worry so?"
"Said the sparrow to the robin, Friend I think it must be, they have no heavenly father, such as cares for you and me."
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Offline Stephen Alford

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2007, 03:46:40 pm »
The critical question here for me is what the land-owners perception is .  The walktalkandlisten  with the landowner will determine wether you even get an opportunity to show the landowner the possibilites and your potential.
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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2007, 04:29:45 pm »
Tell us a bit about the paper you have to write. Is the purpose just a comparison? and if so, based on any limits or constraints (investment money, capital limits, cash flow, production, timber size, terrain, short/long term, no. of laborers, etc.)?
I see horses in your avitar. Are you writing to convince a reader that horses are the way to remove logs?

Seems there needs to be a purpose to writing the paper, beyond just write. Can you fill us in on what it is?

My take on the various forms of moving logs has more to do with the interest (meaning some fun) the logger has in either the animals or the mechanical rigs. Either going to go with one or the other, not have both in the 'stable' to choose from as most appropriate for any given logging job.

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Offline rbhunter

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2007, 06:04:45 pm »
The paper is to compare two seperate things. One of the examples in the book was neat people vs sloppy people.

I chose to use skidders vs Horses because I feel there are places for both and there is advantages to both and disadvantages. I was hoping to get an idea of what expenses per day were associated with a skidder to add to the paper more detail about the expenses assocaited with skidders. The purpose is to compare two things. It is an English Composition assignment. Some how I have had Comp II but not Comp I. This paper is short only a couple of page long so I can't go into much detail. This is a subject in which I am interested and trying to learn more.

I have a love of draft horses. I lived for the weekends when I was younger to go out to my Gradndfathers farm. He always had some draft horses and also broke draft horses for others. I seen him do all sorts of things with horses. Before my time I guess he used to log with horses some and also loaded the logs onto wagons and drove them to the mill.

The horses in the picture with my avitar are my cousins. I like to go out to his place and mess around with the horses.

"Said the robin to the sparrow, I wonder why it must be, these anxious human beings rush around and worry so?"
"Said the sparrow to the robin, Friend I think it must be, they have no heavenly father, such as cares for you and me."
author unknown. Used to hang above parents fireplace.

Offline Rick Alger

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2007, 07:15:54 pm »
Great topic.

I was hoping someone with current figures for skidders would jump in, but failing that,  here's the best I can do.

I ran a John Deere 440 for a lumber company in the 1980's. They figured it cost about $22.00 an hour to own, run and maintain this machine. It would skid 30 or 40 cords of pulp a week on average.   

(New machines like a JD 640 skid three times this amount, and I would guess they cost about three times as much to own, run and maintain.)

On most jobs where I used the machine I guess a single horse would have skidded around  8  cords a week.  A Team might have skidded 15.

For horse expense in the 1980's, I think those figures on the Fact Sheet are fairly close.

A downside to working a horse is that it has to be fed and watered an hour and a half before you harness and go to work. It has to be fed, watered and rested at noon, then it has to be unharnessed, fed and watered after you finish work. So you add a couple hours to your workday.

Offline Corley5

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2007, 09:27:18 pm »
Another thing to consider is a machine that's paid for isn't costing anything when it's idle.  Horses require care whether they're working or not.
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Offline Rick Alger

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2007, 07:13:16 am »
I found the site of the study mentioned above. It has everything you want.

I don't know how to post the address. Go to search for Logging with Horses. The thread that started on Feb 22, 2004 has it. page 2 at the bottom in a post by swamp donkey.

Offline farmerdoug

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Re: Comparison skidder vs Horselogging
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2007, 09:40:24 am »
Here is the link to the thread.

Logging with horses

Remember the post is the last on the second page by SwampDonkey.

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