Thinning spruce-merge/Horselogging in a spruce plantation

[Rick Alger]

I'd appreciate suggested reading or tech info on spacing,  live crown ratios, etc for spruce thinning.

I'm currently doing a 25% pre-commercial thinning of a spruce plantation. The lot has been untouched for 40 years. It's a mix of White and Norway spruce. Some of the trees are seventy feet tall, others, even in more-or-less open areas, are only twenty. The yield has been roughly 1mbf and 7 tons biomass per acre. Most kibitzers think we haven't cut enough.

The forester is open to suggestion, so we might be able to alter the plan as we wrap the job up. . At the least I'd like to learn from the experience.

[SwampDonkey]

Sounds much like conditions for what is called semi-commercial thinning. You want to leave the more dominant trees and space the tight grown ones, leaving ones with healthier crowns as they will be more wind firm. The open grown ones should be left to help close in the canopy and seed-in, as they are usually heavy seed producers, and most are too limby to be of commercial value. Cut them later when the regen is established and still small, they take up a lot of growing space. They are also wind firm. I believe a target basal area for spruce is in the vicinity of 16 m²/ha (70 ft²/acre). Got a prism ??? , it's faster than measuring plot boundaries. Remember, at this stage your trying to promote the production of your best, even though some less desirable trees are left for 'protection' of the stand, out of necessity. 30-50 % crown ratio is ideal, limbs to the ground are obviously no good. Crown closure of 60 -70 % is a good rule, this is subjective as it's an ocular estimate when looking up at the canopy. If you find you have groups of tall wood, like the 70 foot ones, I'd leave more like 20 m²/ha (85 ft²/acre). If your into pockets of stuff up to 30 feet, space them 7 feet apart, even up to 8. As they don't stump sucker, and the canopy closes in pretty quick. Usually self pruning isn't to far along yet. And don't limb the standing trees unless they are dead limbs, just inviting stem rot. Then make sure you do not cut into the bark or the swells at the base of the branches. If there are pockets/groups of some really rough trees, just cut them and skid up the bare ground some to promote germination, if it was a good seed year last year. Got bare ground now, no snow?


Often the tendency is to to take the dominants, leaving the runts (suppressed, flat topped, or less than 1/3 crown, skin poles), week and poor formed trees. Doesn't leave much for a future crop.  :

Hope this helps.

[Rick Alger]

Thanks, This helps a lot. I don't have a prism, but I'm sure the forester does. It sounds like we may be doing better than the kibitzers think. The crown closure looks about right.

It is a semi-commercial job in that I have to generate my income from what I pull out. But I get  rates a lot more favorable than the norm for commercial cuts.

We started out with a mechanical thinning  pattern of taking every fourth row, but with the uneven growth in the stand, that plan  wasn't doing the job. With the horses I'm able to weave around fairly well to get what ought to come out without scarring up the leave trees.

I have been limbing too close to the stems, but that will stop.

It was an excellent cone year, but we do have snow here in Milan, NH. Maybe I'll go back in mud seaon and drag a top around.

Anyway, thanks again.

Stay warm,

Rick

[Riles]

SD, why do you worry about regeneration in an even age plantation? What's the typical rotation age for a spruce plantation in the great white north?

[SwampDonkey]

Spruce plantations are 80 year rotations here, but they live much longer. And the planted sites are usually the best.  But, you can't just plant the trees and walk away for 80 years. Thinning once and walking away doesn't work either. Why worry about regen? The simple answer is they will be years ahead of planted trees and costs less to manage. Spruce seeds well and can regenerate well if ground conditions are right. And it's better to shoot for uneven aged in the long term as it allows multiple entries and not one fail swoop with a clearcut, then have to wait another 80 years. Also, more volume per acre can be harvested in the  same period of time with selection in uneven aged stands. The down side is cost to harvest is more, but the trade off of having being able to cut wood more than once in your life I think is more satisfying.  ;D

Some sections of my plantations have a 5 year gap between planted spruce and natural spruce, not really uneven aged. Since, we usually group ages in 20 year classes. I would have liked a 20 year spread, but mother nature does her thing. I don't know where the seed came from, but it just blows the theory that natural seed of commercial trees isn't viable for long laying on the ground. We know that many shrubs seed are viable for decades. I could say the same thing about white ash, because the mature one's were cut 25 years ago, yet I have white ash everywhere growing and under 30 feet tall, and as short as 1 foot. ;D

cheers

[Riles]

Well it certainly makes sense to switch to uneven aged management when you're on an 80 year rotation, but can you do it in rows? Spruce must be more tolerant than pine.

[SwampDonkey]

Obviously, they aren't going to regenerate in rows.....well kind of, maybe actually, in your skid paths of previous harvests. If I were thinning in plantations, every 3 or 4th row would be sacrificed in the first thinning and cut trees in adjacent rows would be directionally felled in hearing bone style to the extraction trails. Spruce are fairly tolerant, red spruce is real tolerant and will respond well from release of long periods of suppression. Most spruce do require an opening to establish (except red spruce). And where they will be regenerating is in the cut patches as well as the paths. Balsam fir is also very tolerant and is abundant up here, but not as long lived as spruce. However, fir tends to get stem rot under long suppression periods. White spruce will grow prolifically on alder,birch, poplar ground if there is a good seed source and bare ground and some help from leaf beetles. Should see the stuff on soiled gravel pit mounds. But, that's deviating from the thread a bit. ;D On better sites, white spruce is one of few spruces that will develop a tap root. Apparently, Norway spruce seed is not viable for long in the soil and the seed germinates quickly.

[SwampDonkey]

White spruce natural regen in various stages and circumstances. Mostly in areas of old pasture and road sides or in old ground skid paths. Some in between planted rows where the ground was disturbed to expose soil.

[tonich]

Also – if you’re intended to switch to uneven aged management:
Do not force the stand to uniform! Try to break up the density/canopy with gaps, as wide as half stand height (or even a bit more). It is well know, that Nordic spruce is best regenerated in groups, into gaps (naturally after wind/snowfalls) with side shade, good humidity and enough heat (2-3 hours daily) in summer. Within the certain gap, you could leave only trees of small dimensions, but with good potential, to create favorable conditions for the seedlings. 1-2 gaps per hectare should do the job. The next time, you enter for cutting do not extend the current gaps, but create new ones. Also, do thinning between the gaps, as SD already described.


PS. Ability for developing a tap root by the White spruce is a good piece of new for the Spruce family. Thanks for heads up, SwampDonkey!  ;) ;D

[Rick Alger]

Tonich,

Thanks for the input. Openings are also a positive for me as a logger because I can cut a bit more in one spot and so have a more productive day.

I recently read that Norway Spruce get very big in Europe- up to 50 meters. Have you seen any like this?

Rick

[tonich]

No Rick, I haven’t!
The tallest tree I my region, I know about is as much as 38 meters, at 160 years of age.
Norway Spruce plantations are 100 or 120 year rotations here, depending on site capacity. This the approximate age for both: economic and regeneration maturity, when is worth rotating. Usually they reach about 30 meters of height and about 0.5 meters of diameter at 120 years of age.

When opening a gap, you should consider one of the following:
1.   Regeneration:
Established group of undergrowth under mature stand. This is always a good point to start from, to ensure future natural subsequent reproduction.
2.   Harvesting:
A dense group of big trees, growing together. The competition for growing space, results to undeveloped crowns and flat horizontal roots. Thus, trained to survive in group they have very high group firmness, but low individual one. So thinning within such groups is not a good decision. Moreover, it is economically reasonable to remove the whole group.

[SwampDonkey]

Also, those white spruce that have bark like large fish scales are sick and week ones. Cut'm, but you'll end up bucking some to get to firm wood.  ;D

[Rick Alger]

Thanks , Tonich and Swamp Donkey.

I'm in the last section of the plantation now. The trees are all fairly tall and mostly healthy. I don't think large openings would be appropriate here.

The scales on the bark does work for selection. The canopy is so tight it's hard to tell sometimes which tree is more vigorous, and other times it's just nice to have a reason to say this tree goes instead of that one. A couple scaly ones had what looked like blue stain on the butt others had butt rot.

Thanks again,

Rick

[tonich]

You’re SO welcome!

My input was conserving switch from even to uneven aged management.
I didn’t mentioned about “large openings”.

Good luck! 

[sprucebunny]

I visited a new member from up in my neck of the woods, Rick Alger.

He is doing a 25% thinning in a spruce plantation that was planted in 1964.

Here's a few pics and hopefully, he will drop in and answer any questions that you have.

Turning a cornor between rows




Cart hitched up to some trees that are cut but not down.


Rick took me on a ride to the finished area ;D

[Coon]

Sweet pics bunny.  How many acres is he thinning with horses?  How many teams is he running?  Hope he shows up here.  Another horse logger is what we need here. 

[tonich]

 
It would be great, if moderator could merge this thread with this one

PS. Now that I can see much of the stand. I wish, I have known at least age and origin at the start of the discussion.


EDIT: The link is fixed now!  8)

[beenthere]

Your link didn't work. Try doing a preview of the message, and modify if needed.
Good idea to add to previous horselogging threads. 

[leweee]

Sprucebunny....Thanks for posting those pics. 8)
Rick....thats a Great looking team, could you tell use a bit about them?
Love the two wheeled cart with the saw box on front. 8)

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, Toni and I have been offering a few tips for the last few days. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

What's the basal area in there Rick? Use the thumb method. Stand at one point and turn 360 on one foot with arm fully extended and thumb up. Look at trees in line with the thumb (both eyes open), count # of trees which look wider than the width of your thumb. Multiply # trees by 2 for metric (m²/ha), or 8.7 (ft²/acre) for imperial.  ;D

[leweee]

SD....is that the NEWFY prism method? :D

[SwampDonkey]

 :D :D It's quick, it's dirty, it works...sorta. ;D

[Rick Alger]

Yes, I've gotten some good advice from these gentlemen.

The lot is 15 acres. Some of it is nowhere near as growthy as what's pictured. Some of it is so poor that I'm not going to touch it.

The team is a light one -around 2500. The chestnut is a Suffolk with a bit of Belgian. The bay  is a grade Morgan that we originally bought as a saddle horse for the
grandchildren

I  work only this team, and I work alone. Worker's Compensation Insurance is required in NH and it makes it too costly to hire a helper.

I'll be wrapping this job up within a week or so, but I'll be glad to continue this discussion.

Rick

[Tom]

Rick,
You made a bad mistake if you thought you might end a discussion around here. :D :D

You might be talking about this one for years. 
More pictures.  We all like to see horses working.  I think everyone on the forum is jealous of you fellows that do this.  I sure wish y'all would start some threads about horses, horse handling, harness, skidding equipment, skidding, horse stories, feed, loads, hours and all those things that go along with your profession. 

Get conversation started that won't peter out in a week.   You have a lot of us looking over your shoulder even if we aren't saying anything.  :D

[SwampDonkey]

I still wanna see a report of the 'thumbs up' cruise. Do a tally on paper for 6 or 8 plots, total the tally, multiply by that magic number up there and divide by # plots. When the horses are feed'n or something. ;D

Wait until Toni reads this tonight. :D :D :D :D That's ok, I can keep him at bay. ;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little story...

My uncle was blessed all his life, living at home, had a team a horses to play with. Well that's what it was most of the time, and keep this in mind for the story. ;)

My uncle was often times asked to yard wood with his team for the local natives. He had a couple Belgians, twins. Only one was known as 'the wild one' and the other was more gentle and never got too excited, more like his owner. Uncle would always walk his horses to work, sometimes 5 miles one way. He usually got there just in time for the fella's to make some tea over the open fire pit. The tea kettle was usually an old Crisco can with 2 nail holes near the lip of the can and a piece of snare wire tied to it to hang over a fire with a branch drove in the snow. Just throw the tea bag in on the boiling water. One morning uncle got to the woods early and used 1 horse on this job, it was the wild one. He hooked him up and he was standing there. Well by this time some of the native boys had a fire started and the tea was on boiling. One of the boys come up the yarding path where the horse was chained up two a twitch. Asked uncle, 'is this the wild one'? Yep.....just then, the horse got the notion to start off with that log. Well this feller ran like crazy to get ahead of him and the horse followed right behind with the log, but he got out of the way, off to the side. Horse kept going down through the yard, down through the fire pit and out to the road like a bolt of lightning. The boys were all so shaken up they scattered into the woods and never saw them again 'til the next day. The next day uncle returned with the gentle horse and the boys asked, 'is that the wild one'? Yup. Well that was it for that day. ;D My uncle liked working for them because it didn't matter if they worked or not, he still got paid to be there.  And nobody got the least excited, accept maybe over the horses. ;) I won't get into the tale when the Scotsman came and was going to show the natives how to log.  My uncle said the woods was a disaster scene. That's all ya need to know. :D :D  :

[sprucebunny]

Here's a few more pics for Tom ;D

Heading away from the landing.




Finished area.

[Tom]

That's just so cool!   I won't one. ...er two.  :D

[Phorester]

In that last picture it appears we are looking at the south end of a northbound horse.

[leweee]

 :D :D :D and I thought it was the east end of a west bound horse. :D :D :D

[PineNut]

With all that snow, I expect the horse would prefer that it be the north end of a southbound horse.

[SwampDonkey]

That's just the right amount of skidding snow. Much easier than dry ground. ;D

[tonich]

Wait until Toni reads this tonight. :D :D :D :D That's ok, I can keep him at bay. ;)

Dirty, you say!?
I couldn’t agree more.  ;D :D :D

[Rick Alger]

Swamp Donkey,

I did my homework. I figured samples where some of the pictures were taken (as close as I could recall.)

"Turning into a row " - first set of pics - scored 8
"Finished area"  - first set of pics -  scored 9
"Heading away from the landing" second set  - 3
"Finished area" second set  - 8
Other spots not pictured - 3,9,7

avg is 6.7 X 8.7 = 58.29 

In the "Wild One " vein, a friend of mine who now runs a Timbco, used to use horses. This was way back in the days when the jobber would rent a horse to the chopper for a dollar a day.

So my friend has a job going down by the National Forest campground.  A Canadian chopper comes to him and asks  to rent his most powerful horse. My friend says, Well, Old Silver is my strongest horse but I don't rent him to just anybody cause he'll run off if you don't tie him. The Canadian said, I fix him.

So for a while the Canadian and Silver worked well together. They produced a lot of wood.

Then the Canadian bought one of those new-fangled chain saws. The first time he fired it up on the landing Silver took off.  Silver was hooked to a big log, but it didn't slow him down. He went out of the job , down a gravel road  turned  right through the campground, took down a tent and a picnic table, hit tar and picked up speed until he hit a railroad track in the center of town. They caught him there, trying to uproot the rail with a 16 foot spruce.

When my friend asked the Canadian what went wrong with Silver he said, I tole you I fix him , I don't say I make him a saint.

[SwampDonkey]

Well if ya discount the landing pic and that low survival area that had 3 each, then ya done good son (71 ft³/acre). ;D

Now all you fellers that doubt the 'thumbs'.....here's a thumb off the nose. ;D :D :D

Toni's going to cry fowl.  :D :D :D :D :D 8) 8) 8)

[leweee]

 :D Good story about old Silver. :D
Just a few questions:
Do you use this team pictured to haul out (skid) with  & how are the logs hitched when you skid logs?

[Rick Alger]

Thanks for the thumbs up Swamp Donkey. The crane and chipper are pulling out next Tuesday, so it looks like this case is closed.

I have learned some useful things from our exchanges.  I hope to do more of this kind of work in the future. It's a real good fit for horses.

Lewee, I do use this team to skid wood. On the paltry site you see in the pictures I've skidded about ten thousand feet  of spruce, a thousand of pine. a few pallet logs, about ten cords of firewood and eighty tons of biomass fuel chips.

The way I hook is somewhat visible in the pic "heading away from the landing."  You can see the chains hanging from the  hooks on the back of the cart . The deal is that you choke the wood, swing the cart in and hook loose. Pull ahead till everything is in a straight line. Stop. Back up and hook tight. Then when you pull ahead the butts clear the ground and the hitch  pulls  smoothly.

Rick

[leweee]

Thanks for the explaination. ;D Much appreciated.

[Corley5]

Looks  8)  I like logging with horses as long as I'm not the one doing it.  I'd rather check the oil, add diesel and hit the key  ;) ;D  A guy here used horses and an Iron Mule for a long time.  He'd make a loop trail for the Mule and skid to it with the horses.  Later he bought one of those Majac forwarder trailers with a loader that he pulled with his team.  He'd spend the morning grouping logs along the trail and pick them up in the afternoon.  Wasn't real fast but it worked good.  Danny has since moved south seeking relief from arthritis from woods related injuries.

[SwampDonkey]

Red Spruce from the Wapske/Stewart Plains ecological reserve. 46 cm (18 inches) @ DBH and 33 m (106 feet tall).


A closeup of the tape for Toni ;D


Stand conditions: The broken off and dead poles are balsam fir. The stand is well over 100 years old.


A view of the crown of our specimen from a distance (centre):



It's funny how the ground changes in there so abrupt. In the last picture I'm walking away from the tree and heading up a bit of a hill which is a glacial-fluvial deposit of mainly sand where the cover type changed to black spruce and red pine mixed. The growth isn't as old nor near as tall.