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Bolted timber frame construction instructions wanted.

Started by Bibbyman, January 31, 2007, 10:51:31 AM

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Bibbyman

We'd like to build a new building.  We're thinking 30'x60' with 12' wall height.

We've kind of developed our own style of pole barn with heavy posts on walls and truss for the roof structure.

What I'd really like is to do some kind of post and beam frame building.  But I don't want to learn all the joinery design and build the skills necessary to build one the way of the artisans of the past. 

What I'd like is build it like more modern era industrial timber framing – probably using heavy bolts for the joints.  I've been in old warehouses and factories that have been constructed that way.  I've also taken note of things like RR trestles. But I've not been able to find any documentation on how to design and build such a structure.

Anyone got any pointers to reference information?   What I need is a book titled, "Building a bolted timber frame building for Dummies".  :)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Raider Bill

I am also very much interested in this style timberframe. I've always liked the look of bolted and plated timbers.
My design calls for a 24x40 timber frame in the middle of a 48x40 ICF house. This will be a combination greatroom/kitchen. Building will have 12x40 shed type bedrooms and baths on either side. The 24 ft ends will be gabled with ICF's. Full basement underneath.
A question I hope to have answered is, will the posts need to go through the subflooring or can they be supported underneath? 
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

Don P

These are the folks;
http://www.aitc-glulam.org

Their Timber Construction Manual is the book of details. Although written towards glulams most of the connection details work as well with sawn timber. The span charts for glulams are not for sawn timber. The book is not cheap, maybe check interlibrary loan. I've got an old copy that I can scan from if you know what you need  ???

I think "bolted construction for dummies" is "hire an engineer"  :)

MSU_Keith

Bibby and RB,

Consider having the plate supplier help with the engineering (or engineer and build the trusses) while your responsability is just posts and plates.  Here is a resource in Michigan:

Mich Timber Truss

Good looking stuff.  Also, I've seen ads for the 'custom' division of Simpson strong tie that make the plates.

Keith

ronwood

Keith,

Go site I was wanting to build my workshop with the type of framing. Bibbyman I recently cut some logs in St. Louis for a gentleman that might be able to give us some insite. I will try and contact hime to see if he can give us some insite. He done work down in the old factories in St. Louis as a general contractor.

Ron
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

Raider Bill

Check this site out. http://www.strongtie.com/products/apg/index.html
I've found that Simpson is pretty proud of their stuff but it sure works. Personally, I would make the custom plates needed myself. I'd rather play with metal than try to take the time learning all those fancy cuts. Guys like Jim Rogers and his kind are true craftsmen I would just be fooling myself and wasting time.
I've thought that if I could get a knowledgeable person to draw the frame design I could buy the wood from a local sawmill and bolt it together myself. Be almost like erecting one of them metal work shops.

Besides, nothing warms my heart like "heavy metal"
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

beenthere

Bibby
Can ya steal a page outta Arky's book on timber construction?  Arky's "book"
Seems he has the connector thing down pretty good, as I see it. Maybe that isn't the style you want.

If bolting, I'd look hard at using the split-ring connectors. They offer a lot of strength transfer in a joint, but don't seem to be so popular as they were 50 years ago.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

nsmike

Another option that avoids the plates and the complicated joinery is Timberlinx, here's the link http://www.timberlinx.com/. My understanding is that you can use the regular factors for timberframing and just substitute the timberlinx connectors for the complicated joinery.
Mike

Kevin K

Quote from: nsmike on January 31, 2007, 04:14:03 PM
Another option that avoids the plates and the complicated joinery is Timberlinx, here's the link http://www.timberlinx.com/. My understanding is that you can use the regular factors for timberframing and just substitute the timberlinx connectors for the complicated joinery.
Mike

Pardon me for the rant...

In my opinion, that link is on par with this product.
http://www.springfieldindustries.ca/products/polytimber/polytimber.html
Nothing like cheapening a craft.

I've had a local timber framer price out a design I've come up with (for an addition to our house).
The timbers are going to cost me about $17,000 CDN.
Were I to replace the timbers with I-joists & trusses, I'd look at saving about $12,000 CDN.

I could stick frame it myself, but I want a building that will reflect the talents and passion of the craftsman who carved it.

I hope this post doesn't offend anyone, as that is not my intention.


thurlow

This is not timber framing, but it has worked great for me in numerous (pole) barns.  Start with 7 x 7 or 8 x 8 pressure treated or creosote poles.  Put 'em in the ground about 4 ft; concrete 'em in.   I know there's various opinions about using concrete;  these are in the dry and I've never had a problem.  Traditional rafters, not trusses.  The barns have 28 ft clear span in center and 12 ft side sheds.  (28 ft because the rafters for such are as long as I can saw on my little mill)  For plates on the two center runs of poles, I use 2 x 8s or 2 x 10s, one on each side of pole; just set the rafters on the edge of the plates and bolt 'em all the way thru both plates and pole (3/4 inch bolts).  I think I may have notched the pole for the  plates on the first barn I did like this, but after that I just bolted 'em on.  One plate will be a little higher than the other, because of angle of rafters;  rather than trying to figure the angle,  I just put the rafters up on one plate and then "snug" the second one up under the rafter.  The key is tying the rafters together good (collar ties?) at the top.  I don't have to worry about a snow load, but I think the roof would hold up anything.............
Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

scgargoyle

Another interesting site is socketsystems. Looks like a quick way to put up a barn. A lot of these aren't really timber framing, but then, I guess if you use sawn timbers instead of hand hewn, that's not really 'authentic' either. To each his own- I'll probably use timberlinx on my next house. I'm going to do some 'real' timber framing in the meantime, and I may do my great room w/ traditional joints, but the toolmaker/engineer in me really likes the timberlinx, while the traditionalist in me likes the joinery. BTW, they build these beautiful frames, with exquisite joinery, then sheath them in ... SIPs! Foam and OSB, no less! What ever happened to sawn planking, and daub and wattle infill? :o
I hope my ship comes in before the dock rots!

Bibbyman

Quote from: beenthere on January 31, 2007, 03:46:14 PM
Bibby
Can ya steal a page outta Arky's book on timber construction?  Arky's "book"
Seems he has the connector thing down pretty good, as I see it. Maybe that isn't the style you want.

If bolting, I'd look hard at using the split-ring connectors. They offer a lot of strength transfer in a joint, but don't seem to be so popular as they were 50 years ago.

Arky's book borrows a lot from the Socket Systems method of construction.  I've considered it as way to go.  You pay a bit more I'm sure but they do the engineering.

Socket Systems
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Jim_Mc_Dade

Hi Folks, I have been developing a poor mans timberlinx.  Being a fence company I have many short pieces of 1  3/8" O.D. galvanized pipe. I weld a 3/4" nut on the end.  Using a jig I drill a hole through the one timber into the  other timber that joins it at 90 degrees.  The pipe /nut assembley is inserted so the nut is recessed into the the timber .  A 3/8" hole is drilled (using the jig) through the pipe in the second timber and a peice of galvanized rod is inserted.  A bolt and washer,  draws the the timber together.   The bolt head/washer and pin can also be recessed and plugged if you want to hide the assembly.  If large loads are to be expected two assemblies could be used.  Its quite strong.

Tom


Norwiscutter


QuotePardon me for the rant...

In my opinion, that link is on par with this product.
http://www.springfieldindustries.ca/products/polytimber/polytimber.html
Nothing like cheapening a craft.

I've had a local timber framer price out a design I've come up with (for an addition to our house).
The timbers are going to cost me about $17,000 CDN.
Were I to replace the timbers with I-joists & trusses, I'd look at saving about $12,000 CDN.



I could stick frame it myself, but I want a building that will reflect the talents and passion of the craftsman who carved it.

I hope this post doesn't offend anyone, as that is not my intention.




Welcome to the Forum Kevin K. and Jim Mc Dade.

It is one thing to want to maintain traditional craftsmanship on your house. I understand and totally agree.  However a 30x60 utility building is something totally different.  In the world of big box store pole buildings, something that employs heavy wood timbers yet is quick to assemble and economical could fit nicely into the existing market. Getting someone to spend an extra 50% to 100% over the cost of a traditional pole building is often times possible if the end product is significantly nicer. Getting someone to pony up 150/sq. ft. on a 30x60 outbuilding is another thing entirely.   

I can not say in front of my Kids or in Church any of the words that came out of my mouth when I saw Kevin K's link. :o There is someone out there that has that in their house thinking "boy that looks good" ::)
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Bibbyman

Again,

Quote from: Bibbyman on January 31, 2007, 10:51:31 AM

What I'd like is build it like more modern era industrial timber framing – probably using heavy bolts for the joints.  I've been in old warehouses and factories that have been constructed that way.  I've also taken note of things like RR trestles. But I've not been able to find any documentation on how to design and build such a structure.


The building I'm thinking of would be either a new shed for the sawmill operation or a new building to do wood moding and grade lumber storage.  I want it to look like an industrial structure - not a replica of a 500 year old west European home.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Don P

No sweat, I like that style  8).
The reason I suggested the manual or an engineer is that the connection design is every bit as critical as timberframing. I was doodling with sketchup and drew this to show what at first glance might look like a good joint. Follow the load paths (the single black lines) and it becomes apparent that the bolt pattern is eccentric and stands a good chance of splitting the timbers when the plate begins to rotate under high load. Running the rafter by the tie and placing the plate horizontal would make for a much stronger concentric joint. Those types of things need to be thought out clearly when heavy loads accumulate on few members.


If you can keep loads relatively small, more members smaller spans, the loads go down and connections don't have to be as strong each.

TexasTimbers

Bibby,
I have several timber construction manuals (not referring to timber framing books) and I have the one to which Don refers. If you are going to use timbers in your construction, no matter which way you approach it, all i can say is get it. It's a must-have reference and the only one I will probably need.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

scsmith42

Don, in your drawing wouldn't the load on the horizontal member be a tension load, rather than the compressive load indicated?

I can understand that there would be a compressive load indicated on the upper member - just not the lower one.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

TexasTimbers

Scott,

What the drawing does not show is that the center of the truss sits on an interior wall which, the framers built 1/2" too high. ;)
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

scsmith42

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Brad_S.

Quote from: Bibbyman on January 31, 2007, 10:51:31 AM
 What I need is a book titled, "Building a bolted timber frame building for Dummies".  :)
This is pretty close!
Timber Framing For The Rest Of Us
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

LOGDOG

Bibby,

   I've spoken to the folks at Socket Systems in the recent past about connector hardware for our building. Their product is engineered for a span of 30' max which for your needs of 30x60 would be perfect. It could also be expanded upon by using a connector that allows for a shed type roof off of either or both side of the building.

   I asked if they make anything larger than the 5.5" x 5.5" and 7.5"x 7.5" connectors and they said they would for an extra fee of 25% if memory serves me right. I wanted to go with 10x10 or 12x12's strictly for looks. Nothing is free in this world of course, but if you compare the cost per bent for their hardware and you have the wood available I think you'd see a significant savings in money and time by using the conectors. Best part is the ends of the timbers are left blunt/square. Angles are predetermined by the hardware. They'll also paint or powder coat the hardware to match the look you want.

   Good luck with your building. Looking forward to pictures.

LOGDOG

TexasTimbers

I just had to modify this post after having re-read your initial  post. i think Brad's suggestion is a good starting point if you are basically devoid of post and beam construction.
I'll throw my suggestion for a practical how-to; have you considered building a pole shed?
there's a really good practical how-to for this ....... I pretty much looked at, and bought books on, every kind of construction method out there and this is one of the best books for someone with no prior experience.
If you prefer to stick with your post and beam look, substituting square timbers in leiu of poles it's no problem either. Would make it that much easier.
All of the plans and techniques can be easily adopted for open air sheds or a closed wall building.

Practical Pole Building for Dummies Like kevjay and Bibbyman . . .



The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Bibbyman

Quote from: kevjay on February 01, 2007, 08:36:03 AM

I'll throw my suggestion for a practical how-to; have you considered building a pole shed?





Been there. Done that a number of times.  Don't need a book for that. And that may be the way we go again.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

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