Elevators

[Qweaver]

Watching Sarah drag her broken leg with it's heavy cast up the 14 steps of our elevated house has got me to thinking about an elevator.  I've considered building one for some time now, but this accident and our advancing years has me convinced that it's time to do it. 
Has anyone done one of these? 
Getting a contractor to build one to code is just out of the question.  We visited a house that had one installed by the builder and it cost over $8000!  Just ridicules.
Quinton

[Furby]

Pretty dangerous though if done wrong.

A friend of the family joked about wanting to make one out of a couple of beefed up screwdrive garage door openers, strictly for use by one adult.
Don't think he ever built one, but I've considered making one myself.

[submarinesailor]

A friend of mind had a setup in his bedroom at lowered one of the older large screen TVs down from the ceiling.  He used 2 garage door openers a several garage door springs as counter balances.  I wonder if you could do something like that.

Bruce

[Minnesota_boy]

A friend of mind had a setup in his bedroom at lowered one of the older large screen TVs down from the ceiling.  He used 2 garage door openers a several garage door springs as counter balances.  I wonder if you could do something like that.

Bruce

Safety has to be kept in mind for that kind of thing, especially with a person aboard.  That's why they cost so much.

Does it have to be a vertical elevator that is totally enclosed or would an inclined elevator work.  Something alongside the 14 steps?

[farmerdoug]

I would have one installed by a professional.  There is great liabiltiy in those things.  If you build one yourself I would bet that you would not find many insurance companies that would sell you insurance.  If they did you would pay through the roof for it.  There is so many things that could go wrong.  Like it dropping to the ground all of the sudden, doors opening when the elevator is not there, elevator dropping or rising while still in door way.  It is very bad and you probably would not get it by the building inspector building it yourself anyways.

If you were to built a building you would want an engineer to at least do the plans and double for the elavator too.

Farmerdoug

[beenthere]

I figured $8k was a reasonable price for being able to stay in the home we have now. Its not in, but the space for it was planned when our addition was added a few years ago. When that time comes, I don't want the stairs to be the reason I cannot stay in this home.

But then, I remember the simple lifts for going up and down in old factories, consisting of a vertical, continuous belt or cable that had cross-bars about every 6'. Held onto one and stepped onto the next one coming through the opening in the floor. It carried you to the next level up where you would step off, or stay on for the next floor above that. The return was the opposite for going down. Worked very well. Prolly were safety critics that would be (were) shocked, and thus they couldn't exist in this 'safe' world we are in today (tongue-in-cheek  ;D )

Old furniture plants had them, as well as sawmills and woodworking plants. I expect other factory's did as well.

[Ray Bell]

Quinton, a friend of mine was going to patent a little personal elevator that he 'invented' to go on the outside of a house, up to the balcony sort of thing. He did his prototype using a regular 12V starter motor.

[Larry]

BIL put one in when he built his house maybe 25 years ago.  I got invited to work on it when it broke down...it was a pretty complicated machine.  Didn't feel comfortable working on it so I found an Otis guy that did it after hours.  Not saying that I wouldn't take on the installation of one today...just that I would do a lot of investigation first.

I figured $8k was a reasonable price for being able to stay in the home we have now. Its not in, but the space for it was planned when our addition was added a few years ago. When that time comes, I don't want the stairs to be the reason I cannot stay in this home.

That beenthere guy is plenty smart...that played a big motivator in our moving from our home in north west Missouri with stairs to a new home in north west Arkansas without stairs.  The boss has arthritis and may need a hip replacement in the future.

[Corley5]

What about a mast from a forklift ???  You're only going up 14 steps.  If it was attached to an outside 2nd floor deck so there was no worry of getting caught in a doorway in case of failure.  Some sort of check valve or arrestor could be installed in the hydraulics to stop or slow the descent in case of trouble.  The pump could be ran on 110v and you'd only need an UP button at the bottom and a DOWN at the top.  A big rubber bumper/cushion could also be placed under the platform.  If the insurance co fretted about it just say it's a big dumb waiter  ;) ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

DanGitt Greg. I started typin the same thing a coupla hours ago, and chikkened out posting it.  : : ;D

[farmerdoug]

Corley,

I think the insarance agent would agree.  He would probably say"It is a dumb, waiter til I get this new triple price quote from the company". :D :D :D :D

Farmerdoug

[Corley5]

Make it portable  ;) ;D  When the insurance man is coming unplug it and tow it out behind the mill.  When he's gone pull it back up and plug it in.  If he surprises you tell him you're moving the refrigerator out  ;) ;D

[Corley5]

How often do you guys have insurance inspections ??? ???  I haven't had one since I signed on with Farm Bureau.  I upgraded a couple years ago and they had me take the new pics for their records  ;D 8)

[Furby]

That's what closets and door locks are for, to hide things from inspectors and insurance guys. ;)
I was working on building one a couple years back with a forklift mast, just needed it to go up about 3 or 4' for a wheelchair in and out of the house.

[farmerdoug]

The only problem I have with hiding it from or not telling the agent is if something does happen, will the Insurance company void the insurance policy because of it?  If you do not care about that then why have insurance at all? ???

Farmerdoug

[isawlogs]

 There is also the option of putting a chair rail up the stairs , motorised chair that hugs the wall , we looked into one for Dad , but he had other plans ... He went and got a new knee  :D

[Corley5]

If you're that concerned about it then don't have one    Otherwise it's just like any other piece of equipment.  Don't let kids play on it or the general public use it and keep it locked like you would a door.  Shouldn't be a problem then and who cares what the insurance co knows ;)

[Furby]

Just don't sell your house with it installed. ;)

[Fla._Deadheader]

Which is more important, caring about and FOR a loved one, or, worrying about what MIGHT happen. Gimme a break  : : : ;D

  I'd cobble something together most quick, if it was MY mate that needed assistance. POR FABOR.  ;D ;)

[scsmith42]

Ditto FDH's comment.

Quinton, I've toyed around with the elevator idea, in my case for a two story shop/hanger that I plan to build in the future.

I think that Corley5's "forklift mast" idea is a great way to go.  Plenty of height, plenty of capacity, and they can be found in a forklift boneyard.

As a safety, I'd consider adding a toothed track to one side of the mast with a spring loaded solenoid that pulls a safety pin out of a tooth.  Wire it so that when you pull the hydraulic lever, it withdraws the safety pin - allowing the elevator to move.  The pin then gets automatically re-engaged when you release the hydraulic lever.

Scott

[Corley5]

 

[pigman]

Three years ago my 88 year old uncle started to put an elevator in his house until found out what it was going to cost. He then decided to just carry the laundry up and down the steps for his  younger wife.

Bob

[Qweaver]

The forklift mast seems like a really good idea.  I hadn't considered that.  My idea was to use a pipe and cable arrangement like I'm using on my boatlift.  If it will lift and hold a 3000 lb boat, it should be fine for 400 lbs of people and groceries. 
BTW, I hate it that we have to make liability the prime focus everytime we talk about designing and building something.  I get tired of reading, "Oh, you'd better get that checked by an engineer/inspector/insurance company, etc.  I can not believe that we have allowed government bodies, large and small, to dictate these kind of things.  The way we are going, it won't be long before we can only wipe our behinds with paper that has been government approved.  As I've said before, under our present rules and our willingness to acquiesce, the Wright brothers would have not been allowed to fly their plane.  Frivolous lawsuits, and the lawyers that bring them, may be our downfall.

[JimBuis]

Go to E-bay and do a search on "stairlift".  They have used ones on there frequently.  I have seen them for less than $2,000.  You might catch one at an auction as well.  I've been keeping these things in mind for future reference.

Jim

[logwalker]

My house sits 16' over my shop and I have thought about an elevator for years. We climb 26 steps to get up to the house. If I do it I will build a four post frame out of heavy angle. Around 3"x3"x3/8".  Build a metal car that would use nylon rollers on the corners and a cable and pulley system attached to a hydraulic ram. A 48" ram going 4 ways on the blocks would give me the 16' travel. An unloader valve on the ram would insure that in the event of a line or pump failure the descent would be controlled. Build everything to a 3 or 4 to 1 safety factor and some limit switches and double sliding doors with electric interlocks and start using it.

[Ray Bell]

It's great when people just unload all their ideas...

And I agree with Quinton, that insurance (particularly) and other self-fulfilling bodies tend to rule everything we do is a real shame.

Back in Orchard Hills, whatever Quinton needed would have been knocked up in the old tin shed overnight and installed the next day.

Let's bear in mind too, this has to happen quickly if it's to be of any substantial benefit. Sarah should be getting more and more mobile in a few weeks.

[WH_Conley]

Logwalker's plan sounds good. You have hydraulic failure safety in place.Just want to add one thing, in case of cable failure put an inertia brake system on. We used to use them on construction site called them a "YO-YO", you can pull the cable out slow but if you try to pull fast they lockup. I would guess that you could find them for whatever weight you needed.

[Chris Burchfield]

Thysen Krupp just moved their Corp. Headquarters to Germantown TN. I've inspected and tested the fire safety components with their commercial for several years now. Went in just to see what they had for residential. Copy and paste the following to your address line.

http://www.tkaccess.com/ResidentialElevators/ELminivator.asp

Another thought, get a doctor's note as a script. Check with the tax man but, I think with anything above 7.5% of your income, a portion or all above this figure can be written off.

[scsmith42]

Quinton, re your comments about govt and lawyers, all I can say is "Amen brother!"  As a country, there are times that I feel that we're losing our competitive edge because of an excessive obsession about safety.

Reasonable safety practices make sense, and I fully support them.  But when ideas are stifled or delayed for months or years due to liability concerns - when there is really nothing to be concerned about - that really ruffles my feathers.

Logwalker, I also like your concept for the elevator.  Corley's is great because of the capacity and engineering that's already be put into the forklift mast.  Your concept strikes me as a great way to go for someone that want's to build it themselves, or does not need as much capacity.

I'll be filing both of these concepts away for potential use in my shop.

Regards all.

Scott

[pineywoods]

Knew a guy who went around buying up old forklift towers and installing them as elevators. To kep the bureaucrats off his back, he  labeled them FREIGHT ONLY.

[DanG]

I plan to build one for my house after the building inspectors are gone.  I haven't done much of the design yet, so I'll be going to school on you guys. ;D

I detest the liability issue as well, but there are some very real safety concerns here.  I'm not so concerned about falling, as you can prevent that by overbuilding.  What about getting stuck between floors?  There needs to be some sort of escape provision that can be used by someone who can't climb stairs.  I'm thinking of using a DC winch, in case of power failure, with a manual winch for back-up. 

Another concern is the door.  It absolutely MUST have a safety interlock so the cage won't move with the door open.  I witnessed the aftermath of a freight elevator accident a few years back.  A guy loaded it up, then tried to ride up with the load, in spite of all the signs and rules against riding on it.  His foot got caught between the edge of the car and the unprotected doorway.   It mangled his foot pretty badly, and he went through several surgeries over the next year.  Some really large dollars changed hands in the process, too.

I say, go for it, but build in as many safety features as you can think of.  If there ain't no accident, you won't be sued.  If a guest gets hurt, you probably will.

[farmerdoug]

I am all for making an elevator for the house.  I just wanted to point out the liabiltiy of the project.  If it is temporary then who will know but you.  If you think it will add value to the house in the long run I question the liabiltiy that you are setting up.  If you build and use it you know what it can do.  But the next idiot that comes along will expect miracles out of it and hurt someone.  People like to horse around on elevators and it must be addressed in the commercial systems for that.  That is why they cost so much plus the liability that they have to cover too.  I in no way want to stop the creativity of those here just want you to think about the future use also.

My Uncle built a tractor from truck parts.  It would go 45 MPH in the highest gear.  He knew better than us the high gear but he is dead and the new owner lets his kids ride around their land as fast as they want to go.  One of these days we will hear of one of them killing or maiming theirselves.  Hopefully it will happen after my Aunt has passed on or she maybe losing her house because of it.  You never can tell with the lawyers nowadys.  I too wish they would smack to people that put up stupid lawsuits up side the head.

Farmerdoug

[thurlow]

One of our family 'catch phrases' is, "It finally happened."  My brother us'ta be the plant engineer at a rubber-roofing plant in Kingstree, S.C.  One of the uses of the freight elevator was to move towmotors between floors.  The on/off-up/down switch was positioned so that the operator couldn't reach it from the seat of the towmotor; he had to get off.  One of the operators on the third shift figured out that with the handle of a broom, he could reach the buttons without leaving his seat.  One morning he had only the front wheels on the elevator when he punched the button.  Of course, when it started up, he couldn't reach the stop button because the machine was tilting backwards.  Spilled the towmotor upside down onto the floor below.  They called my brother about 2:30 in the A.M.  The first words he heard when he answered the phone were, "It finally happened".  It's hard to make anything idiot proof;  idiots are so resourceful. 

[mike_van]

That 8000 sounds kind of low for an elevator, at out school we had to put in a lift so a person in a wheelchair could get on to the stage, about 3 ft. That was 5000 just for that.  Too bad you couldn't get one from a building being demo'ed - Seems like they'd be available for salvage if you just knew where to look.

[slowzuki]

A neighbour of mine was killed  about 15 years ago in an in home elevator.  His granddaughter was in the elevator with him when it let go but her body was flexible enough / healthy enough to survive.  His wife couldn't stand to live there after that and moved to town.  The new owner has removed the elevator.

I'm a mechanical engineer so I know enough or at least have seen enough accidents that I would not build an elevator.  My best advice is to buy one from a proper manufacturer and have it serviced regularly.

[leweee]

  It's hard to make anything idiot proof;  idiots are so resourceful. 

When they try to make things idiot proof,they end up making better idiots.

[Don_Papenburg]

You can make one with a cable hoist .  Make a dead man brake that will stop the car if the brake release is not steped on .  Sort of like on man lifts at the local CoOP grain elivator . If you release the foot pedal the brake is applied to the rails/track  . for motivation up/down the rider pulls on a stationary rope that runs through the floor of the platform.

[Qweaver]

A neighbour of mine was killed  about 15 years ago in an in home elevator.  His granddaughter was in the elevator with him when it let go but her body was flexible enough / healthy enough to survive.  His wife couldn't stand to live there after that and moved to town.  The new owner has removed the elevator.

I'm a mechanical engineer so I know enough or at least have seen enough accidents that I would not build an elevator.  My best advice is to buy one from a proper manufacturer and have it serviced regularly.

During the years that I raced clubman cars, there was always the risk of injury and people die doing that.  Several of my skydiving friends have been killed also.  I've also lost friends to heart attacks because they were overweight and smoked.  Thousands die each year on our roads.  Many people die operating farm machinery and many die while doing nothing at all.   Are we going to quit doing all of the things that could possibly end with our deaths?  No, because if we did, we'd do very little at all.  Would I walk blind folded along the edge of an 800' cliff, No!  but I'd jump off of that cliff with a parachute without a second thought. 
I just want to build a simple and safe elevator with an 8' lift and was wondering if someone on the forum had done it before,  and I got some really good suggestions.   For those that want to live absolutely risk free lives(AND FORCE OTHERS TO DO THE SAME), good luck. 
Quinton

[DanG]

I agree 100%, Quinton, except for that parachute part. :D :D  We all do things every day that are more dangerous than riding in a homemade elevator.  I still say, "Go for it!"  I am, but I'm gonna build in some serious safety, just as I am sure you will.  I just want to see the pics of your's when you do it.  I've seen a lot of those boat lifts, and that was my first thought, too.

[Murf]

Not that I want to see a person actually ride one......

But I've built several for lifting cargo between shop floors and mezzanines. The vertical mechanism is two barn door tracks, using regular trucks for the track, and a plywood and angle iton frame. Lift is from a 120 volt winch through a snatch block. They ALL had a ratchet safety mechanism on the wall between the tracks in the center, nothing fancy, just a spring loaded block of ironwood that engaged a strip of logistics racking, the stuff they put down each side of a cargo truck to secure the load to. It's got nice big holes and can be had real cheap.

Have a go at it I say, just be sure to overbuild the daylights out of it and test it well with firewood or sumat drop-proff first.  :

[logwalker]

Around here that logistics racking is called E-track. My thought was a spring loaded mechanism that would engage a pawl in the e-track if the cable broke or failed. One on each side of the car in the middle of the side walls. Joe

[Murf]

Joe, same but different.  :D

I ran two barn door tracks, with 2 wheel trucks on each side, the platform was L-shaped so there was a high and low set on the back wall, that way it couldn't rack or twist, it had to go up or down square.

I single piece of e-track (thanks, I couldn't remember what they called it) was all that was necessary, the ironwood pawl was spring loaded to engage the e-track, but the far end had a lanyard on it so that when there was tension on the cable it would be pulled back clear of the track. That way it would go up or down by itself, but if the cable snapped, or lost tension for whatever reason, the pawl would istantly engage automatically.

[KGNC]

We built one for my grandmother. Just a platform that she stood on the side of the stairs. Worked out real well. It was on a cable in a channel. It was real simple. She had two buttons one for up and one for down. She had to keep the button pressed or it would stop and catch the brakes. Really helped her out, since she could walk a bit but could not manage the stairs. We had to cut a hole in the concrete floor to get the platform all the way down to the lower floor level. When not in use the platform folded up out of the way.

[Don P]

The safety brake for a venicular may work as a fall arrest also.

[Qweaver]

Talk about good luck.  I went to an old friends place today, just to visit.  John is one of those people that has been into the salvage business most of his life and has acres of "junk"...except that in this case, the junk is a bunch of "new" 8000 lb fork lift masts that he is cutting up for scrap.  So I now have a lift mechinism for my elevator. 
If anyone needs some really long hydraulic cylinders or complete fork lift masts...let me know.
Quinton

[Ray Bell]

Yeah, I think I could find a use... and my nephew is wanting to make up a hoist for his racing Dodge... but it's about the freight!

Good to hear you're making progress, Quinton...

[slowzuki]

I myself am not an anti risk person myself.  People don't expect risk riding an elevator.  Not the same type of thrill I guess as skydiving.  Heres some more helpful advice, inspect your cables and chains frequently and have a secondory braking/locking mechanism.  Remember you are building something that puts someone elses life at risk not yours. 
BTW, 8 ft may not seem like much but try jumping 8 ft onto a hard surface standing up with your eyes closed so you can't exactly tell when you will hit.

I just want to build a simple and safe elevator with an 8' lift and was wondering if someone on the forum had done it before,  and I got some really good suggestions.   For those that want to live absolutely risk free lives(AND FORCE OTHERS TO DO THE SAME), good luck. 
Quinton

[scsmith42]

Quinton, my shop floors will be approximately 18' apart.  Does your friend have any masts with that much lift?  If so, I may be interested.

Scott

[DanG]

If he don't, Mr. Hootie does. ;)

[Qweaver]

Hey Scott,
I didn't put a rule to these.  He has several different sizes.  The masts have a central cylinder that looks to be about 6 to 8' and then 2 outside cylinders that I'd guess at 10 to 12', so the total lift should be about 16 to 18'.  I'll go by and measure them today.  The ram on the center cyl. was about 4" dia. and the outside ram about 2.75"
John has already cut several of them apart to use the channels for fabricating.   These are very heavy duty masts and it's a shame to see them cut-up for fabrication and scrap.  He also has the rest of the fabricated parts that makeup a fork lift assembly (but no forks)  I also saw a bunch of loader buckets laying back there.  I'll get some pictures  later.
Quinton

[Qweaver]

Here are some pictures of the forklift masts that John has.  There are 2 sizes, 2 are labled 6000 lb cap. and one is labled 8000 lb. cap.  but it does not state how much lift they have.  They are 3 stage and I'll bet that the big one goes over 20'
I'm going to use the cylinders from some masts that John has already cut apart.  He also has several FEL buckets ranging from huge to about 6' wide.  All of this "stuff" is unused and came from JCB equipment.
I suggested that John try selling these on Ebay but he dosn't do "computer". 
If I was still running my welding shop, I'd try to sell them as "custom fit" for other machines. 
Makes you wonder why a company would sell these at scrap price.

[scsmith42]

WOW!

Quinton, can you ask him what he'd sell the big unit for, complete with mast and cylinders?  That would be perfect for my shop.

If I can swing the price, I may have the opportunity to meet you sooner rather than later!

Thanks.

Scott

[farmerdoug]

Qweaver,

Great find on the masts and buckets.  I think using the masts for a elevator is a great idea.  
I was not trying to stop the idea because of liability.  What I really mean to say is to make sure you cover all of the safety areas.  Do not cut corners figuring that your wife and you will know how to operate it in an emergency situation.  It should be easily operated by anyone who uses it with no instruction.  Just think if something happened to your wife and you and the next person did not know that if the power goes out you need to push on this peddle to engage the safety brakes.  Just wanted to make sure you think about the future in the planning.  We all do things that are running the odds at times.  We make a calculated risk and decesion for ourselves.  But if you were planning something that may involve your grandchild at the time you would make it safer that's all.


Farmerdoug

[Qweaver]

Well the good news is that John is going to give me a set of cylinders that he took off when he cut one of the masts apart to salvage the channels.  I like that price!  John and I go way back and we don't keep track of who has helped who the most.
The bad news is that he's asking $1000 for the complete mast assembly and $500 for the loader buckets.  He's been able to sell all but three of the masts for that price, so I doubt that he'd sell them much cheaper.  I could ask.
They are unused and obviously worth that to some people.  I wouldn't pay that much just to get me and my groceries up to the deck.  :D  But they are rated at 6000 and 8000 lbs so if someone had heavy loads to lift, they might be a good buy.
I'd be glad to throw one on my trailer when we head back to WV if a buyer was close along my route.
I actually hate to go over to his yard because he has all of this metal laying around that he'll sell me for slightly more than scrap price, that I just want to cart off to my welding shop and start building stuff.  I have to resist :D
Quinton

[DanG]

Well, a Grand don't seem all that bad for those masts, Q.  Let me tell ya the story of the Hootiemobile.  I was thinking of building a 3 point hitch forklift for my tractor.  I went up to Mr. Hootie's world class surplus and junk yard and talked with him about it.  He seemed to think he could fix me up with something, so we went for a ride on his 1961 Harley Davidson golf cart.  We looked at a bunch of old forklift masts, but he wanted $800 for the only one I thought I could use.  Then, when we got back to his shop, he says, "You oughta just by that old forklift there, instead of trying to build something."  I asked him if it ran, and he said it did when he quit using it.  "How much?"  "$1500"  "Can you get it running?"  "I can try"  "Get it going and I'll buy it"  "OK."  Well, he called me about 5 days later and said it was running.  That Saturday happened to find Fla_Deadheader and Swampy visiting at my place, so we all piled into the truck and had ourselves an adventure bringing it home. : :D :D :D

I told ya all of that to tell ya this:  A grand ain't all that bad for those brand new masts and cylinders.

[Mooseherder]

That first pic of the forklift mast looks like a great starting point for a Bandmill don't it?

[Qweaver]

Hey all,  If you are interested in one of these masts or loader buckets, I put a post in the "For Sale" Topic.  I'm not making anything out of these, they just seem like a good buy for someone that needs them and this way they'll make some money for the forum.
Quinton

[sandman2234]

A good friend grew up on the beach at Destin, but their house was at the road end of the property, not the beach end. His Dad always wanted a beach house on the other end, so just before he passed, he got his wish. (A wedding present to me and my better half was two weeks each year around our Aniversary in the beachhouse!)
    The house had outside steps, since it was sitting on treated poles. 12' of leg work was too much for Dad, so we added 4x8's running alongside the stairs on poles. Then we put 3x3 aluminum angle on it, with the two points down, single point up. Bought some wheels to run on the sharp edge and mounted a gear reduction motor at the top, pulling a cable that was hooked to a cart, that was horizontal during it's upward climb. A stainless steel cable on a cable drum pulled the cart up and down. Switches hooked to a cable that were attached to the handrail that you pushed or pulled were the power monitors. You had to hold the spring loaded rail, or it would stop. If you started down and weren't ready and fell, it would shut off. Not sure what would happen if the cable snapped, but that was the early 70's  and when the hurricane took it away in the mid 90's it was still working up to that point. I guess the liability is gone out to sea now...
  Always wondered if I could do the same thing only mounted on top of the stairs in my house so when I get too old to make it to the bedroom, I can still go visit my younger wife!
   A little desire goes a long way in engineering some projects, but a man has to know his limitations. (Just what was it I was building this elevator for, anyway???)
          David from jax
    David from jax
            David from jax

[Buzz-sawyer]

I agree 100%, Quinton, except for that parachute part. :D :D  .

Dang you sound risky.....
maybe it comes from not having a parachute in that hughy you were flyin all over those hot LZ's??  ;)
You know those angry little fellows pigman kept agrivating with his det cord???