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Cut to length?

Started by bkellyvtme, January 25, 2007, 03:52:24 PM

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bkellyvtme

How is the cut to length system profit made? Is it more expensive of a service than tree length logging to the land owner. I know the footprint of the machines is less. Does this open more doors to make it profitable? Is production reduced? I never came accross many people who do it in my area so I don't know much about it. ???

Gary_C

In general, cut to length systems are made to handle high volumes of cordwood and cut and delimb at the stump. They are capable of cutting 125 cords per day. In our area many jobs call for processing at the stump and do not allow whole tree skidding.

Otherwise, there are so many different ways these machines are used, it is hard to answer your questions. If you have a specific use in mind, perhaps I can give some general ideas as far as volumes that can be cut.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

bkellyvtme

Well, I can see cutting soft wood for pulp with em. But what about doing hardwood thinning and saw logs. I know some people would like to not have thier woods torn up, but is it enough demand to make a living. I know these machines are outragously priced :o. What kind of jobs are requiring processing at the stump? ???

Gary_C

I cut hardwood thinnings with a cut to length harvester, but typically they contain a lot of pulp as well as sawlogs. The harvester works well for me when I cut all the pulp and small sawlog trees first and then go back and fell the larger trees by hand. I can and routinely do cut up to about 24" dia trees with the harvester. However I do not like to cut the larger trees that have valuable sawlogs because there is more potential for damage to the butt log. Having said that, the harvester is so much faster that as I get more used to it, I am cutting all but the most problematic trees. When I can drive up to a tree, reach around and make a cut on the backside, and then cut through from the front and have that tree safely on the ground in just a few minutes, it's hard to overlook that time savings.

I do not cut larger sawlog trees to length with the harvester. It's too dificult to feed those large heavy trunks thru and near impossible to see straightness and defects in the logs. In some cases I will run the head up the log to the top, and cut off the top.

Yes they are expensive, and maintenance costs are high. However there are a lot of used ones for sale and they are much less expensive. But as long as you have the work available to stay busy cutting pulp, even in a hardwood thinning you can usually produce about 2 semi loads of pulp a day and that can be good money.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

bkellyvtme

Thanks for the reply. I looked at a few used harvesters recently. I been thinking about it. I have work, but I don't know if I have enough to feed those monsters (forwarder, harvester). I was thinking it would present a few more oppotunities that would have been closed otherwise. Hardwood pulp has taken a nose dive here in my area. I would rather fill a couple of truckloads of soft wood and send it to the mill. I am a chainsaw, skidder man myself right now. I been contemplating getting mechanized. I am getting lured over to the darkside. :D If I kept my skidder and bought a buncher, I would only have to buy one piece of iron, but... is cut to length the way of the future????

Ed_K

 I'm leaning the same way, would it be better to acquire a fowarder first and still cut by hand,skid a short ways to a small opening then use the fowarder to move larger volumes to the landing? The idea of 125 cords a day is appealing tho.
Ed K

Gary_C

Where I work in the northern forests there are still a few using feller bunchers and large grapple skidders. Some of those operations are now using a machine that makes "clean chips" as it debarks right at the landing before chipping. The residue of bark and the tops are later chipped and sold as boiler fuel. However it is best suited for aspen clearcuts as it requires very large landings and causes a lot more damage in the woods, or at least what's left of the woods. I see some signs that the pulp mills are leaning toward this, but it does shut out smaller operations.

Even the larger logging operators are now adding more cut to length crews, because of the hardwood thinnings which are now requiring processing at the stump. I started with a feller buncher and a single bunk forwarder and have now gone to a cut to length harvester and a double bunk forwarder. You can make any combination work, but as far as I am concerned, the combination I have now is the best. The only reason for a cable skidder would be for very steep terrain but some slope is not a problem for cut to length.

When I mentioned 125 cords per day, you must remember that is what one of those new harvesters are capable of in good conditions like an aspen or pine job. I hope to get 25 cords per day in the difficult hardwood thinnings that I normally cut. The job I am just finishing had over 600 cords of hard maple pulp and that will test the ability of any cut to length machine.

Ed_K
You could certainly start with a forwarder, but it would be very labor intensive to still skid even a short distance. I started with a Hydroaxe with a Timbco bar saw head and dropped the trees, cut to length by hand, and then used a forwarder to pick up where the logs were laying. You will soon find you need a forwarder with a long reach.

bkellyvtme
These computer controlled cut to length machines can do wonders in softwoods. You can set up to optimize for lengths depending on the diameter. For example, if you want to cut long lengths, the computer can calculate if you have a minimum 8" at 12, 14, or 16 ft and cut accordingly. Then when the dia falls below your minimum, it will cut 100 inch lengths for the remainder.

I know that the goal of the work comp people in Minnesota is to get every logger off the ground and into a cab. Safety training will never reduce all accidents when you have workers exposed to all the dangers in the woods.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Samuel

There are a number of mills here in Alberta that do cut to length however most of it is at roadside.  I believe the thought is that the log is being optimized in the bush, and sorted as such.  The winter I looked after a cut to length operation in Norther BC, the company was paid a bonus if we produced the majority for the optimal length for that particular mill set up.

We used conventional harvesting equipment (bunchers and skidders) however we used dangle head processors with Wartah heads as well as Denarko strokers with computer aided measurement systems.  A "good" operator could make between 18-25 loads per shift, but in order for us to justify an operator, they would need to make at a minimum 12 loads a shift.

If you have any other questions feel free to shoot them my way as I spent way too many hours with these processors.  That winter we did approximately 300000 m3 of wood with 3 processors and 1 part time stroker.
____________________________________
Samuel B. ELKINS, RPFT (AB)
Senior Consultant (Owner)
Strategic HSE Systems Inc.
Web: HugeDomains.com - StrategicHseSystems.com is for sale (Strategic Hse Systems)
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SwampDonkey

One issue I find with these processors and forwarder systems is the natural regeneration from seed is less successful because there is less ground disturbance. It's great if your only interested in root suckering and stump sprouting for regeneration. But, I'de like to have some nice spruce growing in my skid paths, not leave strips of suppressed 50 year old fir with 4 inches or less on the but with advanced but rot. Fraser's has thinned a lot of that garbage with brush saws, isn't worth the powder to blow to...well ... you know. ;) The paths grow 99% with root suckered aspen or stump sprouted maples.  The better sites have been the ones becoming decadent with a thick carpet of softwood regen. To me this says something, we should be using an alternative method to clear cutting where warranted and also a method that provides a suitable seed bed for spruce regen that mimics up rooting or exposing scuffed patches of mineral soil.


cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

thecfarm

The logger that is coming back here next week has a forwader and a havester,but he cuts alot for the local paper company.I really don't know how much plantion wood he cuts,but I know of 2 location it was never planted and he was in there cutting with his havester.More and more private land owners wants thier woods cut this way too.Does a neater job,with the right opertator,than twitching tree lenght out.But the cost is there.You would have to keep them in the woods all the time.When the guy above made the big move,all he did was work,7 days a week to get it paid off.Now the rigs are almost paid for he only works 5 days a week.The wife is alot happier now.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ever Green

explain the "cut to length"...who wins...u or the mill???
Vince

SwampDonkey

Tree length can be done proper when trails are left narrow with bumper trees harvested after the thinning. Also, trails can be marked out to be as straight as possible, bearing in mind terrain conditions dictate the location of paths. Bring the bumper trees out from the rear of the trail, working toward the front. Minimal damage, good seed bed for softwood or hardwood regen. Not great big wide trails inviting shade intolerant species to take over. Processors leave tops and limbs to, and usually less scattered and more concentrated on the trail, further impeding regen, especially when it's softwood tops. All depends on the operator. I've been on a lot of sites where tree length was used and it was very good work with lots of nice 'more desireable' regen species taking root within 5 years. I can also say I've been on a lot of sites that was sloppy work to, but a lot of those sites were high graded with no care for the land. That can also be said for any system/machines used.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Samuel

Quote from: Ever Green on February 04, 2007, 10:22:23 PM
explain the "cut to length"...who wins...u or the mill???

I would say as with most operations it comes down to the operator.  If you can get someone who pumps out 15 loads cut to length with a dangle head, rather than 20 loads with a stroker, than I would say you win. 
____________________________________
Samuel B. ELKINS, RPFT (AB)
Senior Consultant (Owner)
Strategic HSE Systems Inc.
Web: HugeDomains.com - StrategicHseSystems.com is for sale (Strategic Hse Systems)
LinkedIn http://ca.linkedin.com/in/samuelelkins
Software Solutions-
DATS | Digital Action Tracking System by ASM

Ron Scott

Cut-to-length is the harvesting system in which felled trees are processed into log lengths at the stump before they are carried to the road or landing. It is an alternative to full-tree or tree-length logging.

You will usually get more value for your sawlogs as you cut for grade and veneer at the stump and then forwarding on rubber tires rather than dragging the products.  You are not dragging tree length log sections through dirt and mud and "bumping" the sawlog sections thus possibly lowering their grade cuts for less value to you at the mill.

The species, stand condition and values should detrermine which method you use to meet your sustainable forestry objectives.

Most of my selective sawlog timber harvests in high value hardwoods use the cut-to-length method. Depending upon soil type, tree spacing, lack of existing regeneration, and lower product values then the tree length method may be used.

Clear cutting and tree length harvesting may also be used when it is the "optimum" method to regenerate the stand and meet specific wildlife objectives.

No matter what method used, the harvest should be well planned in advance to meet your objectives with the least impact on the land.
~Ron

Gary_C

The method you use to harvest the job will not necessarily determine if you "win" and that does not say the mill wins either. Sure, your equipment costs, production rates, and operating costs are important. And yes, if you have the newest, best machines, regardless of what method you use, you better get production to match the high prices. But on many jobs, the determining factor will be how well you market your product and not on the method you use to harvest the wood.
There are enough people sucessfully using all the different methods that you can be certain all methods will work. But if you do not take the time to sort and market everything you produce for maximum return, no method will make you money and that does not mean the mill will be the one that "wins."

Sort till the bark falls off and don't send 20 inch white pine logs to the chipper and you will usually "win."
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SwampDonkey

Much of the dirty hardwood logs in tree length comes when mucking around on a wet yard. Since, the sawlog portion is lifted clear of the ground when skidding. It is rare to get two good hardwood sawlogs from the tree length wood up here. Softwood tends to get a bit more dirty because there is a lot more sawlog material in them beyond the but log. In the winter or summer it's not as much a problem as in the wet seasons. In the wet seasons it would be nice to have an alternative set of machines and method of harvesting. But, then the roads are fun to travel over with the axils buried in muck. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Scott

Ditto! Seeking and knowing your markets and sorting for maximum product value, is key to increasing your profits regardless of the harvest method used.

One of my logger recently had a call for 24, 22 foot x 30 inch diameter red oak logs for a special home buiding need. The timber harvest contract was for variable length logging only with nothing to exceed 17 feet.

So that the logger could fill this specialty market and increase his profits, we and the landowner allowed him to tree length the number of logs requested. He used care and close supervision to complete the task with minimum resource damage. There was some road damages that he immediatrely repaired in a satisfactory manner.

Foresters and loggers can work together if they discuss the situation in advance and plan the job accordingly. I probably would have become very excited if I had come on the job and seen him randomly skidding tree lengths on a cut-to-length job without him discussing the situation and need with me in advance. ;)

~Ron

Ed_K

 On regen, I've found that the forester's I work with, will at points mark small openings.When I find these,I cut all the small junk drop all my trees into this irregular openings, skid my logs out then push the tops and brush out to the sides.This leaves some open ground for pine regen and doesn't take long to do. Be surprised at all the little pines that come up in a yr.
Ed K

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