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Lifting with a 3point

Started by stumpy, January 24, 2007, 04:44:42 PM

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stumpy

I have read about the dangers of using tractors to skid logs.  Is it safe to lift logs with a 3point and about what is the lifting capacity?  I have a 45hp IH farm tractor and have been tempted to use the 3point to load logs on the trailer, but don't know how safe it is.  Any comments?
Woodmizer LT30, NHL785 skidsteer, IH 444 tractor

beenthere

Going to use a boom or forks on the 3pt? 

Just need to counterbalance the front end with weight.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

JimBuis

The answer to the question of safety would have several aspects.  One would be keeping the front wheels on the ground as has already been pointed out.  Another would be possible damage to the tractor.

Just how much force were the 3 pt. connection points to the transaxle designed to withstand?  If you simply back the tractor up to a log and lift the log up with some chain via the 3pt., I don't think it would be a problem, but it would also not be of much practical use to you.  The next step then is to rig up a small boom to the hitch.  The next step after that would be a bigger boom with a small winch on the end of it.  As the 3 point hitch log lifting mechanism evolves, at some point you would probably exceed the structural strength of the transaxle.  At that point, I would not want to be around when you have a heavy log lifted several feet off the ground and the transaxle disintegrates.

I think it could be done, but great care would have to be taken to spread the mechanical stresses out across the frame of the tractor.

IMHO,
Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Larry

I lift logs with a home made hitch thingy that uses log tongs.  On bigger logs, I run a choker from the log through a clevis to the front end of the tractor.  In addition, I have a FEL and keep the bucket maxed out with firewood chunks to keep the front end on the ground.

If in doubt...be safe and figure out a better way.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Don_Papenburg

How big is your 45hp tractor ?  The larger old farm tractors with the large frames will lift more than a small short framed utility. If you can keep the load close to the pin eyes  you can lift safely what the hitch is rated for. Read the manual. The farther you are away from the hitch points the less you can lift and the more counter weight you need.    But heck yea  you can lift logs with the 3pnt. 
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

brdmkr

I have used the 3-pt to lift-roll logs onto bunks.  I got a 25", 22' red oak log on 6" high bunks by backing up to the log with the lift down, leaving the tractor in reverse and then pulling the lift up while moving backwards.  It may not be the best way to move logs, but when they are too much for the logrite it will work.  I need to rig up a parbuckle device, but it seems I always have something else to do.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

mike_van

A lot of it is how familiar you are with your setup. Tractors have pulled about everything known to man at one time or another. But, whats easy for one guy, may not be for the next. Some of us grew up on tractors, hundreds of hours [or more] every year, doing everything you can imagine. It gets to where you can look at a job and know wether or not you should even try it. They can be dangerous, all this stuff is. Chainsaws, logs, sawmills, it can all hurt you. I read a lot of posts on YT forum, lots of people getting tractors because "granddad had one" No clue some of them, how heavy they are, how fast they'll snap a cable & send it at you, & how they will get you in trouble. No OJT involved, which really hurts. You just can't get years of experience reading online or going to a tractor pull. My best advise would be to move small logs, get used to the machine on good ground, kind of learn your way up the ladder. No kids riding next to you, [i've seen it] no bystanders to get hurt.  A lot of it's common sence.
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

Don P

One other thing to think about while perched atop the seat is to think about where the lift cylinder for the 3 pt is located. Then look back across that long boom pole, at its leverage, the short fulcrum and the cylinder thats right under your  :D.   Confessions of the owner of a really stout boom pole and a cracked seat cover  :o.

floorboy

I don't know about you guys but i find that the manufactures of the tractor build in safe guards.
this mean that the hydraulics should hit the pressure release before you can over load the rear axel. just my 2 cents.

Tom

I agree. A piece of equipment shouldn't be able to hurt itself or you, but, there is always that "whoops".

Then there is the need to have more than the job calls for, which requires operator attention.  An example is an Automobile that is capable of 100 mph when the speed limit is 75 mph.  You need that extra to get out of trouble.

pineywoods

I used an old massey-ferguson 135 to load and skid logs for several years. Had a heavy bar across the 3-pt hitch and a good set of tongs attached to that. Hook to one end of the log, lift it a few inches off the ground and head for the trailer. To  load, lift one end of the log onto the back end of the trailer, then get behind the log and push it the rest of the way. Also built a platform that works like a set of forks. To be really useful, it needs a top link that is a hydraulic cylinder. Have a neighbor who has a similar setup on a small yanmar tractor. He uses it to load logs on to his norwood sawmill.
Been my experience--as a general rule, you can safely lift more withe 3-pt than you can with a front end loader on any given tractor.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Tom

That heavy bar is called a Tool Bar and everyone with a tractor should have one  :)

Radar67

Pineywoods, can you get a picture of that setup on your neighbor's Yanmar?

Tom, is what you are calling a tool bar the same thing as a draw bar?

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Tom

No sir.  A draw bar comes out from under the tractor like a trailer hitch and is the safest way to haul a load.  It is strong and always below the rear axles.  Keeping the load below the axles stops the tractor from coming over backwards and crushing you.

A tool bar is a hefty bar, usually 3/4 x 3 x 30 and it has two lifting ears on each end that fit into the arms of the 3point hitch.  Some folks will make a place to connect the top hitch to them to keep them from rolling over but they don't normally have one.  They have holes drilled their entire length to accomodate the attachment of chains or trailers or whatever.  Very simple, just a bar of steel.  But, it keeps the load close to the tractor and care will keep the load low.

Furby

What you described it what is actually labeled a draw bar around here.
But I agree with your description of a draw bar, Tom.

Radar67

What you described is also known as a draw bar around here as well. I've got one on my tractor now. Mine also has the hitch below the axle.

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Tom

Googling up Drawbar, northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company shows both of these items as Drawbars.  I guess I need to learn some new vocabulary.

thurlow

We always called 'em belly drawbars and three-point hitch drawbars...........2 different animals. 

To increase the lifting height of the three-point hitch, there is a scissors contraption made.............which when used with a hydraulic top link............will pick a bale of hay or log up high enough to get it onto a farm trailer.  Don't have a picture.
Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

Don P

Oh well, I always knew it as a toolbar too  ???

beenthere

Tom
I agree with you, and the fact that over the years, the young-uns have bastardized the terminology.  :) No offense to the young-uns meant.  :)
Big discussion on this over on the TBN (TractorByNet) site some time ago. The drawbar is where drawbar horsepower is measuered at the Nebraska tests, and its where Tom said it is. Drawbar horsepower isn't measured from the 3pt bar between the lift arms, I'm sure. But names of things drift over time, and it's not likely a big one (just makes defining things for understanding a bit tougher).

To me, we've seen the same problem with the word slabs, when slabs used to be the cuts removed from a log to square it up. What some call slabs now (and the term begets slabbers) used to be called flitch's. So we see the names drift around a bit there too. In discussions, we see where someone has a slab pile to get rid of in the wood burner, and they sure don't mean the big slabs that came from a slabber (they are called flitch's, meaning un-edged thick cuts of wood from a log, and a term also used in the veneer industry to describe the wood put on a veneer slicer). Just thought I'd toss that out to knaw on.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Don_Papenburg

What I always refered to as a tool bar was a square or rectanguar bar of various lengths ,most wide as or wider than the tractor . They alwas had full 3pnt. attachment .  They were used to attach differant tools that would be used to cultivate or plant or some other operation.
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

brdmkr

Quote from: beenthere on January 25, 2007, 12:02:52 AM
Tom
I agree with you, and the fact that over the years, the young-uns have bastardized the terminology. 

Now wait a minute......   Somehow, that saying makes me feel ........OLD  :D



I don't have a name for the bar your talking about (I have the bar though ;D), but I agree with Tom on the drawbar.  The drawbar is that piece of steel that attaches to the belly and extends under the rear axel.  It is made for towing heavy stuff.  I use the other bar for hitching to my utility trailer to move lumber.  I have found that I can lower the 3pt which raises the rear of the trailer and facillitates off loading.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Minnesota_boy

Quote from: brdmkr on January 25, 2007, 12:13:47 AM
Quote from: beenthere on January 25, 2007, 12:02:52 AM
Tom
I agree with you, and the fact that over the years, the young-uns have bastardized the terminology. 
Now wait a minute......   Somehow, that saying makes me feel ........OLD  :D

Don't get feeling tooo old, those younguns that did the bastardizing are in their 80's and 90's.  :o
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Murf

Whatever you pull from be carefull of two things;

1) whatever point is doing the pulling, is BELOW the centerline of the rear axle, that way a snag will pull the front end down, not roll it over onto you.

2) that the pulling is done by the drawbar, or the two lift arms, NOT by the upper 3rd link point. This point is not designed to be used as a pull point, not only is it dangerously high, but can, and will bend or break if overloaded.

Be safe!!!
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

beenthere

What I've been using, to skid logs out for years, is the 3pt with an arch-type rigging. Now I use what is called a 3pt quick-tach, and put the log tongs on the top hook. With balancing weight on the front end, such as the loader or snowplow, I've had no counter-reaction that would cause the tractor to 'flip' over.
Back in the day when I did this with an 8N Ford, there were times when the front end would get light and come up. However, it wasn't quick because the tractor was in lowest (first) gear and there was plenty of time to either:
a) lower the 3pt arms which drops the log to the ground and removes all lift of the front end of the tractor
b)depress the clutch and stop the forward movement of the tractor
c) turn off the key and shut off the motor (had to reach over and do that once when a buddy panicked, and rather than do a or b, he just watched the front end lift up and jumped off).  The tractor front end came up slow enough I could step over and turn the key to shut off the tractor.

Don't mean to belittle any comments and suggestions that pulling logs this way is dangerous, but it is no more so, IMO, than going downhill with a log slung in logging arch that has no wheel brakes, and no way to drop the log to the ground. A runaway/jackknife downhill with an ATV/tractor and a heavy log may not be pretty, the way I think of it.

Method I am referring to:



And with the 8N Ford



south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

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