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Cutting hung tree in sections from ground

Started by Bill E, January 21, 2007, 11:19:40 PM

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Bill E

Hello all,

I have several Western Hemlocks about a foot in diameter which toppled over from laminated root rot and hung up in neighboring trees at about a 45 degree angle. 

Sawing down the holding tree was not an option in one case (its a huge cedar which I want to retain) and I quickly figured it wasn't much of an idea in looking at the other.  A conclusion confirmed by reading earlier posts this evening.

Don't have any heavy equipment and it didn't look like I could pull them off to the side.  Maybe could have used a cant hook or lever described elsewhere to rotate them off.  But didn't.

Instead on advice of a non professional and friend, I cut partially through the fallen tree from the top and then from the bottom at about chest height.  And then repeated cutting sections until the remaining parts of the trees are now at a steep enough angle I figure I can pull them back and to the side with a come-along.

Cutting the leaning trees made me somewhat nervous but didn't encouter problems with these trees anyhow.

Question - Is this an accepted practice?  Any better options?

Thanks,
Bill

sawguy21

I wouldn't try that. If the remaining section comes loose while you are cutting, you won't be able to move fast enough. A winch cable is a much safer option but others here have a lot more experience than I in these situations.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Brian Beauchamp


chet

Bill, I use that method quite often. Another method I use, is to "tie" the tree that is leaning into the other tree, and lower it as I remove sections from the bottom.
Though I use these practices in my professional operation, I would never advise anyone else to try them. These are extremely dangerous operations if not properly trained.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Bill E

Good point, Brian.  Was alone for the first one.  Thought better of it and had my wife observe on the second (with her cell phone).

See what you mean about tieing the top of the tree, Chet.  Is the main hazard then the trunk of the tree splitting or shattering as its cut?

Bill

chet

Honestly there are many hazards. And each and every situation presents its own. That is what makes it so dangerous to the untrained individual.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Kevin

Bill;
Invest in a portable winch for under a hundred bucks, you're worth it.

woodmills1

While I won't say I haven't done it, what you are describing is about as dangerous as it gets.  Things happen real fast and the direction in which they happen is really not controllable, though to preserve log lenths I have pulled this trick while standing on the FOPS of the tractor.  Did I say that? :o :o
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

snowman

The best and safest way, if possible, is to cripple your leaner with a cut in top and bottom like you were doing but don't go all the way through. Then find a tree far enough and big enough away to smash through it and bring the whole works down. Just be sure your behind a big enough tree to keep anything that might come your way off your head when everything blows up.Did i say safe? :D Is anything in the woods safe? The method you used is called picket fencing because the pieces you cut off tend to stick in the ground from the pressure. I actually did this myself just the other day, a big cedar snag that had fallen into a birch.I was standing in waist deep snow,nowhere to run, nowhere to hide should something go wrong. The whole time i was doing it I was thinking, boy is this dumb.  :)

Ga_Boy

I use 150' of line with a couple of snatch blocks to make a block and tackle rig.  Hook this to your tractor or truck and pull in a safe direction.

I have used this method to pull trees in a desirable direction when felling and removing hung trees.  With limited equipment you can do a lot of work with a good Bull Line and a few pullys.




Mark
10 Acers in the Blue Ridge Mountains

Polly

 8) 8) this is what actually happened to me a couple years ago ,the tree about six to eight inches diameter probly thirty ft tall was leaning in another tree mebby thirty degree angle or less i cut it about all the way through from top , stopped and looked for any problems seeing none i cut it through rest of way , the trunk of the tree went straight up about fifteen ft or so and then came straight down taking my glove off my hand and landing on top of my saw this happened in a matter of seconds  ,thank goodness the lord takes care of us hillbellies ::) ::)

Ron Wenrich

I question the wisdom of even considering sawing the holding tree, as you said in the beginning of your post. 

We had a logger do that in these parts for 20 years.  If a tree fell into another tree, he simply went and cut that tree down.  He didn't do it for 21 years. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Don K

I have cut leaners like that before and while the hair was standing up on the back of my neck the whole time, I was wishing that I had another viable option at the time. These were storm trees and had already died. 8 to 12 inch pines complete with dead limbs. I guess God allows fools to live to tell the story on occasion.   :D :D
Lucky to own a WM LT40HDD35, blessed to have a wife that encouraged me to buy it.     Now that\'s true love!
Massey Ferguson 1547 FWD with FEL  06 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4X4 Dozer Retriever Husky 359 20\" Bar  Man, life is getting good!

Ron Scott

~Ron

Bill E

Thanks for the advice everyone.   I put my chainsaw away.

I'm focusing on one hung tree which is now about 8" diameter at the base, 3" at the top and about 35' long.  The angle between the ground and the hung tree is about 60 degrees.

The top five feet or so is hooked between two live trees -- so I got no where trying to pull it out to the side with my half inch rope come-along.  It just bends the live trees.

So it looks like the advice I'm getting boils down to rigging a pully set up that will lift the top of the hanger back more upright so it is clear of the other trees and can then be pulled off to the side while being lowered.  I think I saw rigging like this when I searched other threads and a calculation of the stesses.   

Kevin and Mark mentioned a portable winch and a bull line with snatch blocks.  Does a half inch rope come-along qualify or would you advise heavier rope and gear?

Does anyone think pulling the base backwards or sideways would work given the weight pushing it down into softish soil?

Thanks again for the help.

Bill

Gary_C

If that tree is completely cut off from the stump, yes you should be able to pull it straight back untill it is clear. You will either have to lift and pull or get something under the base to keep it from digging into the ground.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

woodmills1

I use my tractor winch to pull them back in a straight line.  When they are heavy they tend to sink into the ground at the butt so I have dug some dirt in front of the path first.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Kevin

Bill;
With a block you can redirect the pull up and away to take weight off the butt.
A half inch rope is plenty if it's a good rope like the hard lay tree master three strand.
If the pull is too great a mechanical advantage will increase the pull of your winch.
Smarter is safer, sometimes looking and setting up take a little more time than just jumping in with both feet but the job gets done with more ease than expected.
If you need help with setting it up just ask away.


59Billy

Quote from: Kevin on January 23, 2007, 12:48:41 PM
Bill;
With a block you can redirect the pull up and away to take weight off the butt.
...

That's one of those things that seems obvious -- AFTER somebody shows it to you!

I'll be filing that idea way until I need it.

Bill E

Great.  Thanks a lot Kevin and all.  This is what I will do.

Bill

Kevin

For anyone with a hung up tree that can get their mitts on a log arch then the tree can be pulled down by winching the arch ahead.
As the arch is forced down in the front it lifts the tree from the back.


blaze83

Hi Bill,

let me know if you need some help...I look forward to getting into the woods any chance I get.... pm me your address if you'd like I should be available this weekend, although I may have to work this Saturday. 

Steve

PS  are you just trying to get the tree's down, or are you wanting to keep the logs if you can?
I'm always amazed that no matter how bad i screw up Jesus still loves me

Dan_Shade

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Bill E

Thanks for the offer Steve.  This will sound dumb, but I don't know what "PM" is and how to do it.

The sections of the tree I already cut off are still sound and I'll get some good wood out on my LT-15.  I noticed what looks like a orange growth (chonch?) on the remaining section so think there is some rot.  Looking at it for firewood more than anything else.

I'll be around Saturday but not Sunday. 

Bill

blaze83

No problem, it took me a bit to figure it out also.  I just sent you a personal mesage, to send me one all you have to do is click on my profile name blaze83 and then scroll down to the bottem were it asks if you want to send me a personal message, click it and that should do it...  If there is another easier way to do it I'm sure some one can help us out  :)
I'm always amazed that no matter how bad i screw up Jesus still loves me

Furby

Click on the little scroll on the left side of a post to send that person a message.
It's green when they are online and darker color when they are not online.

Ga_Boy

The Bull lines that I have seen are either 5/8 or 3/4.

I opted for the 3/4 inch line.  Pick up 2-3 snatch blocks and you are in business. 

Any good Arborists store or web site will have what you need.  I use Fresco Arborists.  They are easy to deal with. 



Mark
10 Acers in the Blue Ridge Mountains

Kevin

Larger lines won't feed through the rope puller.
The 1/2" tree master is rated over 7k lbs. when new.

Ga_Boy

My Bull Line and snatch bolcks are rated to 16,000 pounds.  I had three blocks but now I am down to two. 

I stressed one of them right up the faliure point when we par buckled those big White Oaks. :o

We did not realize how much tension we were putting on that block till we had that crotch log on the trailer.  Then again this thing is 7 feet wide and 10 feet long.  It is a four way ctotch, the limbs were tiny, they only measured out to 30 inch diameter. :D

This thing is so oddly shaped that we had to slide it up the ramps, it would not roll.  That is how we stressed the one snatch block....that was a lot of pulling. 8)



10 Acers in the Blue Ridge Mountains

Kevin

It's good to know the rating on the blocks.
You are only as good as your weakest link.
The bearing blocks are better but won't take a shock load as well as a bushing block.
All depends on the purpose.

rebocardo

> Any better options?

The best option is not to put a chainsaw at all to the trees. My SOP is to get a cable as high up into the tree as possible and pull it sideways with my truck out of the tree. Sometimes I use another tree for a snatch block to get a good pulling angle. If the tree is off the stump or a rootball, then I pull it backwards.

The one time I could not do this as the tree fell into a crotch 50+ feet up was I pulled it backwards with my 4x4 1971 Ford F-100 390CI granny 4 speed. I already had the tree wrapped with chain to prevent a further barberchair. I cut an angle on the backside so it would not dig into the ground, then I cut the hinge all the way through expecting the tree to jump the stump at any moment. Then I dumped the clutch and yanked it off the stump (chain was wrapped so it would twist the tree) and went as fast as I could before the tree butt caught up with my behind because I only had 20 feet of chain left for the pulling.

If it looks like the only way to get it down is to cut down the tree it is caught up in, I pass and let them call a company to remove it with a climber or heavy equipment for $2000+.

Somethings are not worth doing as even a 2" branch can kill you.





Bill E

Hello all,

I really appreciated the advice from Kevin and everyone else on how to get hung trees down safely.  I bought two pulleys, rope, webbing and a couple of shackles.  Thought you might want to see the set up at work.

The first two pictures show a hung tree that came down using a come along.  That's my daughter supervising a safe distance from the hung tree.




This second hung tree was tougher, but I could get to it and use my truck for pulling. 


Had to cut it from the stump and there was a lot of sideways pressure in the tree.  Felt kind of spooky, but I cut from the back side so I was away from where the log and/or stump were going to go.


Top was jamed in between two trees so the base came off the ground until I changed the direction of pull.


Tree safely on the ground.


Thanks again all.

Bill

Kevin

Nice job Bill, looks very safe.
You might consider a face shield when winching.
Is that a rope puller you were using to winch with?
What were your plans for the wood?

Sprucegum

This has been an interesting thread. Thanks for the follow-up pictures. I always like to see what other folks' woodlots look like. Where do you keep the snow?  :D

Bill E

Thanks Sprucegum and Kevin,

In the first two pictures I was using a rope puller -- and would have felt better with a face shield.  Did get a new helmut with faceguard and ear protecters -- and chaps -- last week and used them today.  (Would like to get a protective jacket and gaiters too -- see them all over the place in UK web sites but not very many in the US.  I feel vulnerable sawing with my neck exposed after reading some of the accident reports.)

In the second set of pictuers I'm pulling from the rear bumper of my pick-up truck.

Good lessen there -- With the log on the ground, the chain was burried.  I dug it out partway and then pulled on it with the truck.  It came free -- but flew about 30 feet before it landed on the ground along with the heavy red hook that was attached to the rope.  That was well short of the truck and no one else was around -- but a fellow at WesSpur suggested it would be better to just tie the rope to the tree instead of using hook and chain.

The first log is starting to rot and will be firewood.  I'll mill the second one into boards -- but I havent figured out what I'll do with them after that.

Sure glad to have this forum.

I grew up in Minnesota, Sprucegum, but here in Western Washington we live in the rain and visit the mountains when we want the white stuff.

Bill




Kevin

Bill;
One advantage to the rope puller is the additional amount of rope you can add to the system to incorporate a mechanical advantage on the hard pulls as long as you don't exceed the working load of the equipment being used.
You end up putting more rope in the system but the advantage makes the pulling much easier.



For that second one,  start cutting pieces off the bottom making it shorter taking some of the weight off it then pull the shorter tree section back like you did with the first one.

You can see the compression on top and the tension on the bottom of this tree compared to the straight red line.
You would start your cut on top and finish the cut from the bottom to prevent the bar from being pinched.


Bill E

Got it Kevin - two to one advantage by putting a pulley at the load like you have drawn.

On the second tree there was just as much bend right to left as there was up and down.  As the top came down the wind must have been pushing it to the side and the trees it fell between kept it there.  You can see how the the base of the log and the stump are pushing off towards the front side the camera is on in the fourth picture down.  The cut had opened up on the front side and the back side of the log was lodged as tight as could be against the stump.  That's all that was holding the tree up in the air.

When I pulled the tree off the stump it lodged in soft ground and into the hillside a bit, so I did cut two sections off the bottom before I could get the right pulling angle to a pulley.  I thought that is what others were warning not to do though earlier in this thread.  Or maybe they mean when the hung tree is closer to vertical.

Thanks,
Bill

Kevin

I agree, they're all different and sometimes take more time assessing than time spent cutting.
For your slings, use them in a basket fashion when you can for maximum strength.

rebocardo

> When I pulled the tree off the stump it lodged in soft ground and into the hillside a bit

Yea, forgot to mention when I put the angle in the butt so it does not sink or dig into the ground, sometimes I also put down a couple of pieces of 1/8 plate steel where I -think- the tree will pull to off the stump. The log will usually ride along with the metal until the tree is on the ground.

Seeing the video of the arch in action, I think I might finally get around to buying one.

BTW: nice looking woods.

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