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Using diesel/kerosene and oil lube - does it cause finishing problems later?

Started by treebucker, January 19, 2007, 08:33:34 AM

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treebucker

I've heard some complain about this but I would like to get some fresh thoughts. ??? I would hate to have a potentially good customer get an expensive load of high quality boards and not be pleased with the final outcome. I would also hate the thought of setting on a large quantity of the same knowing I couldn't in good consience sell it for high-end use.

Also, my smeller aint what it use to be. What's the chance that a buyer would reject a load base on smell alone?

Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and
I thought to myself, "Where the heck is the ceiling?!" - Anon

Nate Surveyor

First off, what's that thing in your mouth?

(OK, got that out of the way!)

I have heard of using diesel, lightly sprayed on wood, to keep mold off. Diesel evaporates at some rate. (Thus the smell) A little oil residue left behind. I suspect that I could use RED die diesel (Farm diesel) and use it to color the wood if desired. I have been thinking about it for a while. I think it could only help pine. Maybe not cedar or oak.

Nate
I know less than I used to.

ohsoloco

Looks like Ralphie's chompin' on a bar of Lifebuoy soap...must've said FUDGE again  :D

SawDust_Studios

This has been debated before. Not really here ... maybe just in my head.

There are alot of guys on here that use diesel for a blade lube.  My personal thought is (a furniture/cabinet making standpoint) is that anything like that has the potential to affect staining or finishing in the long run.  Maybe not by much, but it could. 

I think what helps is that we tend to use very little, if anything on the blade, which means there is less chance of staining.  Also, most end users of lumber that would really affect the end staining tend to plane the wood, which means the majority of light staining is removed.

However, we've all put a tad too much water on the blade or have had to stop and left the water (or in this case diesel) run onto the cant.  Also, this light staining might not be noticeble at first, until someone applies a light stain and sees some discoloration.  Diesel may evaporate, but not all of the components in diesel does.  This can act very much like a grain sealer.  Even a little will affect the saturation of stain.   

If you've ever glued boards together, wiped off the access, then try to stain the piece only to realize you didn't get all the glue off, you know what I'm talking about. 

If i'm buying some nice boards for fine furniture, I'd be a little unhappy if I got to the finishing room and had splotched stain everywhere.
Making Sawdust on a Woodmizer LT40SHD CAT 51 /WM Twin Blade Edger and WM DH Kiln

logwalker

I believe that I can answer this from my own experience. It is all I have used for years and have never had it become an issue at any stage of processing and using the lumber. And bear in mind that I am the end user 95% of the time. I am using the lumber, in this case Alder, for cabinets and millwork. As you probably know Alder is a very light colored wood and if it was going to stain it almost certainly would stain this specie. I use both water based and oil base finishes and normally do not stain the wood. So little is needed and using it between cuts makes it a very good lube FOR ME. I understand that it is not for everyone, but it works well for me.





The flash in the first picture put a lot of contrast in the wood that realy isn't there. Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Wudman

I'm a little fish in the ocean, only cutting wood for my own use.  With that said, I use a diesel / bar oil mix for my lube.  It keeps my blade clean, and the mill runs significantly quieter with diesel as opposed to water.  I use it sparingly with a s-l-o-w gravity feed drip.  My mill is a home built unit with rubber tires for band wheels.  Too much lube will cause the blade to slip and pop off the crown of the band wheels.

I've had no problems with finishing issues.  Occassionally, if the mill sits idle for a few minutes and I forget to stop the drip, I'll get a little staining as the blade first enters the log.  This area gets removed in the end trim anyway, so it is not an issue to me.  During normal sawing operations, I don't see any sign of residue on my lumber.

Diesel / bar oil works well for me.  You don't have to worry about freezing.....plus I can lube up the blade upon shut down and I don't have to worry about rust on the blade.  For a part timer like me....that is a good benefit as well.

Jeff
"You may tear down statues and burn buildings but you can't kill the spirit of patriots and when they've had enough this madness will end."
Charlie Daniels
July 4, 2020 (2 days before his death)

Brad_S.

In all the years I've been doing this, I have never heard of anyone who had finishing problems due to diesel as a blade drip. Between the chance for it to evaporate during drying and the fact that about an eighth inch of wood will be removed in dressing the boards, the chances of any residual oil getting through are minimal. Oil from your hands has a better chance of effecting the finish. Even if any does, diesel is just a petroleum distillate, and petroleum distillates are listed as ingredients in most all finishes, even water based ones.

"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Part_Timer

I used bar oil and Kero for a winter blade lube for a couple of years when I had the band mill and had no problems with any film left to mess up the finish.
Peterson 8" ATS.
The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

rvrdivr

Keeping in mind, I too am a little fish, but I have had no problems using a water/soap mix.
QuoteI use it sparingly with a s-l-o-w gravity feed drip.  My mill is a home built unit with rubber tires for band wheels.  Too much lube will cause the blade to slip and pop off the crown of the band wheels.

My understanding is to keep the blade clean and cool. How will it cool if it's only dripping slow? When I cut hard wood or big stuff, I let the juice pour. I feel the extra water helps the cutting while keeping the blade cool and clean and so far, it has never caused the blade to slip.

Besides the freezing issue, is there other advantages using a diesel/oil mix over soap and water?

Thanks, Brian

Percy

For me, the jury is still out on this matter.  Diesel/bar oil keeps the blade cool by reducing friction as opposed to dumping a large amount of water on the blade to absorb the heat produced IMHO. A 5 gallon jug of diesel/bar oil will get me around 40,000 bdft of bridge timbers(over a week). The same sized jug of soap and water gives me mebey 4000 bdft(half a day). If I was cutting hardwoods, I would switch to just water to avoid any problems, perceived or imagined.  ;D
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

thecfarm

You have to realize the people using diesel mix is using only a slow drip.Once every 2-3 seconds.Forget about that steady stream that looks like a garden hose is connected to it.I'm only a little guy too.I have never used any of my wood for interior work yet.But the wife pantry is going to have some poplar boards put into it.These will be planed and I will be using the half bar chain oil and half diesel.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

treebucker

Thanks for all of your responses. I'm trying to lay this issue to rest once and for all so in the future when someone says "It will cause a problem with the finish later on." we can all point back to this and say "Our survey shows you are 100% wrong" or something like that. But there's still the possibility that someone will post on here otherwise. Let's see what happens as more responses are added. I'm still curious about the parked head with the lube running scenario.

BTW - I'm also taking other surveys one this issue on other sites. I'll try to combine the results later.

Quote
First off, what's that thing in your mouth?
Nate Surveyor, ohsoloco got it right about soap but I think in the movie (Christimas Story) Ralph also mentioned Lux and Ivory as he pondered the flavor nuances of the different brands. ;D



Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and
I thought to myself, "Where the heck is the ceiling?!" - Anon

Brad_S.

Quote from: treebucker on January 19, 2007, 09:36:37 PM
I'm trying to lay this issue to rest once and for all so in the future when someone says "It will cause a problem with the finish later on." we can all point back to this and say "Our survey shows you are 100% wrong" or something like that.

Nope, won't happen. :D There are two, often strongly divided camps here and no amount of persuading can get most to convert to the others school of thought. You will just have to pick one and go with it and maybe make your own decision with more experience under your belt.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Tom

This is not the only time this question has been asked on this forum.  There are lengthy threads elswhere.  

While I'm not one to tell others what to do, I do have my opinion.  I don't use lubricants that may adulterate the lumber.  I use, basically, water.  I've put dish soap in it from time to time to increase its ability to stick.  Dish soap can erode the grease from guide bearings, so I use it spareingly.

I have in very rare circumstances used diesel oil.  It was when I was cutting reclaimed heart pine and there was no way to saw it without oil.  My customer was aware and the millworks where the wood was going for processing was aware.  The millworks used canola oil.  I had none.  They bought it in 50 gal barrels.  I wasn't going to make that commitment.

I think that some people who use diesel for a lubricant desensitize themselves to the smell.  It's like asking a smoker how he can stand the smell of cigarette smoke.  I've been around mills where everything was shiny from the oil and the smell was overwhelming.   One stationary mill had oil on the walls, ceiling and in the concrete pad.

Whether the oil is planed off or not, I made up my mind that I wouldn't put myself in the position of harming someone's project.  I do it because a cabinet maker told me one time about the problems he has with adulterating chemicals being on the wood he gets from the lumberyard.  He thinks that some was silicone and some came from engine exhausts or insect spray.  I'm not verbal about it.  I just use water.  It makes me feel like I'm doing the right thing and , to me, that's important.  Each to his own.

We all can justify in our own minds what we feel is the right or acceptable thing.  It's one of those things that you have to live with because you may never know all of the outcomes.  

treebucker

Brad_S., For the purposes of this thread, I'm mainly interested in the lube effecting the finish or putting a customer off due to smell. Like you, I've read countless threads about the precieved pros and cons of each. I saw there was no changing either side's views and it was more a matter of personal taste as it was science. I was hoping this way of approaching the issue would be more scientific than the others. :D


Tom, I like your attitude toward this. I adopted the same stance on this issue early on. (In cased anybody's wondering, I'm in the water camp.) You also mentioned canola oil. I haven't heard of using it. The last I checked, it's cheaper than bottled water in the local grocery store. Is there an industrial grade of this stuff specially formulated for band sawing wood?


Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and
I thought to myself, "Where the heck is the ceiling?!" - Anon

Tom

It's just canola oil.  I don't know if it is food grade or used in animal feed, but, they said it was inexpensive.  It's been several years and I can't remember the particulars.

This fellow worked with pine a lot.  He used the canola oil on planers, shapers and his big band resaw.  It had about a 10" blade.  He was a lot bigger operation than I was.  He just wasn't able to economically do what I did.

Brad_S.

Quote from: treebucker on January 19, 2007, 10:10:42 PM
For the purposes of this thread, I'm mainly interested in the lube effecting the finish or putting a customer off due to smell.

OK then, I'll 'fess up. ;)
In 13 years and hundreds of customers, I did have one who didn't like me using diesel. I was cutting fence rails from their logs and they were afraid the horses would chew the fence and get sick. I think they were being paranoid, but I acquiesced.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Coon

I am also in the same boat as Tom and will only use water even though I have used diesel/bar oil for lube.  The reason being.....  While working in an autobody shop we had a large gooseneck trailer with a wooden deck come into the shop for painting.  The trailer was newly built and had only been used once.  I sawed the tammarack boards for the deck and used only water (looots of it)for lube as I knew it was going to be painted.  During the trailers first use the owners hired hand had spilled some diesel on the deck wood and some of the steel.  We sanded and prepped the steel and wood for the paint and went ahead and sprayed the primer and single stage paint.  We ended up with fish eyes in the paint on both the steel and wood.  With fisheyes in the paint you will notice in time that the paint will discolor, blotch out and sometimes bubble and peel off.  We ended up sanding the trailer down and having to repaint the whole works using fish eye eliminator in the paint.

Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

Norm

That's a beautiful kitchen cabinet logwalker. :)

There's very few woods I cut that require any lube or water this time of year, the exception is hard and soft maples and white oak. During the summer I use water with just a couple of squirts of cheap dish soap to help keep the blade heat down.

woodmills1

I have used the 50/50 mix since 97 or 98 without a complaint from any customers, with many repeat buyers who are woodworkers.  I also make some furnature for myself and have not had any fish eye or other finishing problems.  I do thing spilled deisel would be a whole different given the larger amount and the lack of evaporation time.  I hand spray my mix from an old style oil can, only when there is build up or excess noise.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

bad_boards

my mix of bar lube oil and  isopropyl alcohol works fine for me , no complaints or staining on finished lumber, the , isopropyl alcohol thins the oil nice and its evaporates very very fast.

for the sticky syp i cut , i could`nt mill with out this


treebucker

Thanks bad_boards,
But now you've given me a second new lube for me to think about. smiley_headscratch I can imagine the alcohol would evaporate very quickly. 

But I'm after anyone who has had any negative feedback from using diesel/kerosene and bar oil mix. It seems to me that the oil would effect some types of finishes. It don't seem to me that a planer could get rid of all of it. Seems there would always be some stuck to the knives smearing around a little?
Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and
I thought to myself, "Where the heck is the ceiling?!" - Anon

bad_boards

well i have tried many mixes, and the one i posted works best for me and what i cut
the pitch that builds up with out it kills the blades and i cant cut straight


Back40x2



    Be carefull with it.  Too much and it will eat the crown off the v-belts and then all hell breaks loose.  Also, DO NOT THE D.E.P. catch ya!  That is a big no no!!!!!!!!!

    I know a person up here in Maine who runs the orange machine and he got caught by OSHA!!!!!  5500.00 fine.  He also had to remove every piece of sawdust on his property.  That was almost 10 grand for the disposal of that!!!!!!! OUCH :-[ :-[ :-[

    Laundry soap and water.  Windsheild wash and water. 

Good luck!
My JD 4120 Loader/Hoe/fransgard winch, a 10,000 pound Warn winch, STIHL 460,  Timberking 1600,  Lots of logs, a shotgun, rifle, my German Shorthaired Pointers and a 4-wheel drive, is all this Maine boy needs to survive!! Oh Yeah, and my WIFE!!!!!!

treebucker

Back40x2,
You have brought up a good point there.  It's odd that we have not heard more about it. Why didn't they pursue it further and go after every mill owner garnering more fines and publicity along the way?  It also makes you wonder why they haven't made chainsaw bar oil illegal?  Was his use excessive or was he also using his sawbust pile for a place to dispose of his used oil?
Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and
I thought to myself, "Where the heck is the ceiling?!" - Anon

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