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Complex leaf

Started by jeff, June 20, 2001, 03:27:29 PM

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Jeff

Any Ideas?

This tree is about 20 feet tall. If I ever get the digital to work I will take a picture of the bark. So far I do not know what it is.


Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Roger_T

Jeff,

Did you notice any dried fruit or berries on the branches??  Somehow reminds me of a Mountain Ash that my folks had when i was a kid, had bright orange or red berries and wasn't over 20' tall.

Roger

Jeff

Here is a leaf from a mountain ash that I planted 3  years ago and our suspect tree to the right. Very different when you put them side to side. The bark is smooth, dark colored with short horizontal lines and spots, almost like a young cherry.


Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Tom

Jeff,

I am having trouble finding anything so far on a Bi-penately compound palmate leaf.  Do you have any other thing that may help.  Are the numbers of primary leaflets in the picture accurate?

Is the trunk woody or herbacious?

Have you seen the flowers?  What do they look like?

Is it a volunteer (natural or otherwise) or did you bring it in from somewhere else?

You and swampwhiteoak have doozies this time.

swampwhiteoak

Is this a wild tree or a yard tree?  Does it have thorns?  

Leaf makes me think of honeylocust, but if it was a wild tree I think you would have mentioned 12inch long thorns.  On the other hand the "horticultural" version doesn't have thorns.

Don P

Has anyone got a pic of Kentucky Coffee tree? Just a wild stab.

Jeff

It is a yard tree, but it seems to be a volunteer. It grows right next to the house, but I did not plant it that I can recall.

I tried to figure this out before and came up with a locust but no exact match. My Mother-in-law calls it a sweet pea tree. But, I think she my be thinking of the locust that has the seed pods that look like string beans.

Here is finally the bark:



Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Scott

Jeff,
Are those some thorns I see on the twig? It has to be Honeylocust.
~Ron

Tom

Ron I thought it was Locust too but aren't locust leaves opposed?  These look like they come from the same node and are almost palmate.  That is confusing, a bi-pinnately compound palmate leaf? :)

I saw Chinaberry today and thought of Jeff's tree.

swampwhiteoak

Honeylocust leaves are alternate.  The leaflets are opposite.  Honeylocust is generally just compound but usually has some bi-pinnately compound leaves.  
Wild honeylocust will have very large thorns with several points.  The horticultural version doesn't have the thorns, but it tries.  Leaves will often sprout from the trunk in the same place that a "wild" tree's thorns would be.

Tom, what you're seeing is compound leaves with very close bases.  

Coffeetree would have very large leaves, all bi-pinnately compound.


CHARLIE

I don't know trees like you guys, but it sure looks like Honey Locust to me. I thought that immediately when I saw the picture. I've got to drive arond and find one now and take a look.
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Jeff

I just did a closer inspection. I could not see any thorns, or anything that looked remotely like a thorn. No stubs, or anything of that nature.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Scott

The Thornless Honeylocust is a commonly planted city tree. Are there others similar in the near area?
~Ron

Jeff

Nope, no others, but that don't mean my mom or mother-in-law, or wife did not sneak it in there 10 or 15 years ago. I know I didn't and nobody else can remember.

Ron, should we consider this thread solved?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Tom

Jeff,

I'm not in a good place to guess at the ID but I've not heard anything yet that indicates that anybody is really sure.  Why don't you find a Honey Locust and see if it looks like what you have?

Jeff

I have been looking on the web at thornless Honey locust, they show a tree that flowers. This one does not. (Male female species??)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Tom

Yeah, or it might have to do with age.

CHARLIE

I firmly believe that what you have is a young Honeylocust...and here's why.
------------------------------------------------
KNOWING YOUR TREES - A publication of The American Forestry Association by C.H. Collingwood and Warren D. Brush and revised and edited by Devereux Butcher.

A couple of excerpts from Honeylocust (Gleditsia triacanthox Linnaeus on pages 308 & 309.

"Ordinarily some seventy-five feet high with trunk diameters of two or three feet, the maximum height is about 140 feet with occasional trunks six feet in diameter."

"On young trunks and branches the bark is smooth and grayish-brown, while on mature trunks it is a quarter of an inch to three-quarters of an inch thick, divided into narrow ridges by deep, longitudinal fissures. It as a tendency to peel off in strips, and is grayish brown to nearly black. Relatively large, light colored lenticels are noticable on the smoother areas. The trunk, branches and even the zigzag branchlets often bristle with long, slender, forked thorns. A variety, 'inermis', has no thorns."
-------------------------------------------------
 
In conclusion Jeff, you said your tree was 20' tall. Since a Honeylocust can attain mature heights exceeding 75', I figure you have a young tree which would still have smooth bark. I suggest waiting another 20 years and then checking the bark. I bet you would see some thorns.   :)

One thing I did learn from this that I thought was interesting....The Honeylocust tree belongs to Leguminosae or pea family. Botanists classify it with Kentucky coffeetree and redbud rather than with the black locust, Robinia pseudoacacia. The Honeylocust have thick, fibrous roots that are  deep and wide-spreading, but unlike most other legumes they are without nitrogen-fixing nodules and do not add this element to the soil.
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Jeff

I am afraid this trees days are numbered, it grows within a foot of my house. She'll be big problems before another 20 years are up.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Scott

Jeff,
I guess you will need to get your Urban Forester out there to solve it. Let us know what it is??

We need to get an Urban Forester on here anyway.
~Ron

Don P

I'd have to agree with Charlie. Went to the bldg supply today and parked under a shade tree for the dog...looked up and there was this tree. Around the lot were 10 more. Same bark,and leaf.

CHARLIE

Jeff, My sweetwife and I went to Whitewater State Park yesterday and there were many, many Honey Locust (At least that's what I think they are). Some were as tall as 40 to 50 feet and I couldn't find a thorn anywhere on them. I'm thinking the "thornless" variety must grow in this area. I tried to count the leaves on each stem and came up with from 14 to 18, but I notice your example has over 20 leaves. I wonder if the younger trees have more leaves.

Charlie ::)
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

SwampDonkey

When I was in NYC a number of years ago, I saw many of them growing very close to buildings in the city streets. They looked like they went wild because they were almost climbing up the sides of buildings coming out of the ground where there was any available bare soil.

As I type this I am reminded  of the movie "Logan's Run", where the cities were abandoned and over grown.  ;D ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brian Beauchamp

Looks like either a honeylocust or a mimosa to me.

WDH

I vote for honeylocust.

Honey, I locusted the kids ;D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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