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Raw milk

Started by Quartlow, January 13, 2007, 09:39:58 AM

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Quartlow

Anyone else besides me drinking it? I used to get mine from a dairy in PA. My nephew just got his first dairy cow. Raising it grass fed and organic.
I brought home two gallons yesterday man is it good. Smooth, has a slight sweet taste to it.
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sawguy21

I grew up on it, we got it from the neighbour. I remember the cream on top in the square bottles. Illegal to sell or even give away now.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Coon

Sawguy,  It may be illegal to sell or give it away but does it stop everyone from doing it?  Not in the least here.  We still get farm cream and milk once in a while from local farmers.  Can't beat it.  Would like to get my own milk cow but won't be doing so until we move to a new place.   Heck I even got an old hand crank cream separater someplace.   
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beenthere

Probably not as risky as drivng the car on the highway........but risky just the same. I survived drinking raw milk as a kid, as well as milking the one Jersey cow by hand every evening (brother had to every morning).
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Roxie

It's the only milk we drink.  We also get yogurt, butter and cheese made from it.  Ours comes from a combination of two Guernseys, one Ayershire and one Jersey.  They are hand milked and pasture kept. 

Here's an interesting fact.  For those people that are lactose intolerant, did you you know that pastureization takes out the enzyme that helps you digest milk?  If you are lactose intolerant, you can drink raw milk without any problem. 

I believe there is less risk in drinking raw milk, from which you know the source, than in drinking processed milk with all the natural benefits (enzymes and CLA) boiled out of it. 
Say when

Patty

We milked for awhile when I was a kid. We had one jersy and one holstein, and they supplied the milk, cream, butter, etc for a family of seven. At the time I didn't appreciate the quality.  ::) 

Norm & I have talked several times about getting a milk cow, but I don't think we could use all the milk. Heck the neighbors avoid me now because of all our eggs, we would have them really on the run if I was bringing milk too! I wish I could find someone to trade fresh eggs for fresh milk with, that would be ideal.
Women are Angels.
And when someone breaks our wings....
We simply continue to fly ........
on a broomstick.....
We are flexible like that.

Sprucegum

I wish I could support a cow. Dad and I milked 4. Sold the cream and except for the couple gallons a day us kids drank the rest went to the pigs. The way we drank Mom said she couldn't tell the difference 'tween us and the pigs anyway  ;D

Jeff

I'd sure like to have some available around here to make some home made ice cream with. ;D  MMMMM
Just call me the midget doctor.
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pigman

Growing up I liked the raw milk and all the cream, but I did not like the early morning milking before school and the evening milking. It was cold in the winter and hot in the summer. The cow seemed to always know when her wet tail was in reach of my face. >:(  If the cow got here muddy foot in the bucket while being milked we had chocolate milk. 8)

Bob
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

Reddog

On a small farm it is fine.
But remember raw milk transported and infected people with TB than any other source.
I know a few dairy farmers familys that test false positive for TB, from drinking from the bulk tank.

beenthere

Quote from: pigman on January 13, 2007, 12:50:56 PM
................>:(  If the cow got here muddy foot in the bucket while being milked we had chocolate milk. 8)


Yep, I recall carefully getting her foot out a the bucket of milk so's it wouldn't tip over and spill any.  ;D

And remember how the cow could crack-the-whip with her tail, neatly wrapping it around the head, then jerking it back off. Only not when the flies needed to be chased away, only when it was wringing wet ...... (were those the good-ol days  ::) ::) ? )
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Corley5

I'm not and never have been a big milk drinker.  Cereal and cooking is about the only use for it around here.  I've only had one experience with raw milk and I didn't like it.  My cousins in Wi kept a dairy cow that I think was a holstein but it wasn't real big so it may not have been.  It was black and white anyway ;) ;D  It supplied their two households and a neighbor.  A friend of mine was a dairy farmer until a few years ago.  They had a small pasteurizer for their own milk and never would have considered using it raw.   
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Bro. Noble

From what I understand,  the most common problem with raw milk is a bug that causes cold like symtoms and septic sore throat------few people realize it came from the milk.  Also,  no one mentioned the wonderful ::) taste of milk in the spring when the cows are enjoying the fresh new pssture (and wild onions) :-\ :-\  When I was a kid,  we drank it or did without.  My experience with home pasturizers is really bad.,  that stuff is just horrible. 

Right now we are having an extremely cold rain and is expected to turn to ice tonight.  Lots of power out in the area already and could be off for most of the coming week.  I'm not looking forward to milking those stoopid cows nor slogging through the mud and sliding on the expected ice to get the stoopids in and to feed their stoopid babies >:( 

After milking for 25 years,  putting up with high feed and fuel prices,  low milk prices,  and the government and the doo-gooders continuously making threats because of the polution,  I'd be really glad to set by the fire this next week and drink milk out of a carton.

Next week,  I'll still be here after the ice storm (  we've been through a bunch of them)  and will be feeling fortunate to be able to live on the farm :D :D
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Polly

 8) 8)   i believe all milk cows are gov tested for tb and etc  if you are sellin milk commercally  raw milk from jersey cow tests about 5 or 6 pc butterfat store bought milk is about same as chalk water  easy figured which is best  :D :D :D 8) 8) 8)

thurlow

We always had a milk cow when I was growing up;  my mother did the milking.  I too remember the taste of the wild onions and even worse, bitter weeds.  Our's was always clean;  we strained it through a cloth to get out the visible (and invisible) germs.   8) 8) 8)
Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

woodsteach

I don't know much about milking cows, but I've been involved in hauling raw milk for my 35 years, (dad had a route).  Some of the places we've picked up (All Grade A Milk) made you sick just to walk in and hook up the hose and empty the tank, and some were so clean you could probably eat off of the floor.  Guess what they all passed Govt. inspection and all the milk went to the same place.  I guess what I'm getting at is I'd rather buy raw milk from someone who I trust than from the store, but that is very hard to do and right now they won't let me have a cow, or goat in town. 

I sure like sampling milk from the farms that do their job correctly.  8) 8)

Woodsteach

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Ianab

Grew up on a diary farm, milking about 150 cows. So our house milk came from a jug that was filled from the main collection vat  :)
Yup you got to love that jersey milk, it was about the same as what they sell as cream in the shops  :D
As kids we made butter and cottage cheese, but more just as an experiment, buying it from the supermarket was easier.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Quartlow

Well it's never killed anyone in my family. I won't even drink milk from the store just to drink it. Raw milk on the other hand doesn't last around here. We go through about two gallons a week here
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Have a wooderful day!!

Tom

I've drank so much Blue John over the last 20 years that even store bought 2% is like swigging cream.

We had a cow when I was a kid, followed by weekly trips to the Dairy when it was gone.  That milk was good.  So was the ritual of spooning off the cream.   I still enjoy what I drink today, whether it's full of Butter Fat or not.  My all time favorite snack is a Qt. of good, rich, cold  buttermilk that has specks of butter running down the sides.

SPIKER

We used to drink it from a few different places.   had a family member working a large dairy farm.   also had a few local farms who sold it out of the parlor.  Sure was better mike.  just recently we had an Amish farmer busted for a similar practice, he had a donation bucket in his parlor, feds went in bought some (on Sunday) Amish farmer said no money needed) fed left it on his table and left, came back and arrested the Amish guy.!   he was recently charged with selling raw un-pasteurized mike, luckily the judge saw the BS and tossed the case out, it could have easily gone the other way and had the farmer going to the big milk house  ::)  I think the fed tossed down 6 bucks for a gallon of milk, I suppose he hasn't been to the store lately, or wanted the farmer to think he was getting a good deal ::)

I wish there were more places to get good milk.   I read a interesting story about a lot of the reasons behind feds wanting it to be pasteurized as well as reasons against it.   

TB was a bigger problem mostly due to un-sanitary people milking not the cows themselves.   seems that a lot of people who worked farms were poor (go figure) and were more susceptible to TB and then would pass the TB into the raw milk through poor hygiene issues.
(coughing up some tb into milk bucket & sending it to market...   anyhow I'm one that would like to get some real milk again...


MarkM

I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

Gary_C

Here is the official reasons from the FDA for not drinking unpasturized milk:

Drinking raw (untreated) milk or eating raw milk products is "like playing Russian roulette with your health," says John Sheehan, director of the Food and Drug Administration's Division of Dairy and Egg Safety. "We see a number of cases of foodborne illness every year related to the consumption of raw milk."

More than 300 people in the United States got sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk in 2001, and nearly 200 became ill from these products in 2002, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Raw milk may harbor a host of disease-causing organisms (pathogens), such as the bacteria campylobacter, escherichia, listeria, salmonella, yersinia, and brucella. Common symptoms of foodborne illness from many of these types of bacteria include diarrhea, stomach cramps, fever, headache, vomiting, and exhaustion.

Most healthy people recover from foodborne illness within a short period of time, but others may have symptoms that are chronic, severe, or life-threatening.

People with weakened immune systems, such as elderly people, children, and those with certain diseases or conditions, are most at risk for severe infections from pathogens that may be present in raw milk. In pregnant women, Listeria monocytogenes-caused illness can result in miscarriage, fetal death, or illness or death of a newborn infant. And Escherichia coli infection has been linked to hemolytic uremic syndrome, a condition that can cause kidney failure and death.

Some of the diseases that pasteurization can prevent are tuberculosis, diphtheria, polio, salmonellosis, strep throat, scarlet fever, and typhoid fever.



Properly pasturized milk does not taste significantly different than raw milk. The problem with poor taste has more to do with the SNF (solids-non-fat) which is removed from milk and sold for other uses. California requires a higher SNF than other states and there has been a lot of debate and controversy about the federal rules being raised. The processors of fluid milk have fought bitterly against raising the SNF requirements for obvious reasons.

There are certainly other reasons for the cardboard taste in store bought milk, including the fat %, rancidity, and light induced flavors, but pasturization is not the main problem.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

PineNut

I grew on raw milk also and still don't have TB. But haven't had any raw milk since I left home to go to school. When I left, there was no one left to milk so there went the cow. I do remember that wet tail a time or two but quickly fixed that. Had a large battery clip on a piece of wire atttached to the building. When clamped to the cow's tail, she couldn't get it around to hit you. 

thecfarm

How many people die from eating rare hamburg and steak?I like mine nice and red.When we go out to eat I order a rare steak and they alway say that will be cool in the middle and I say it better be.I don't drink alot of milk now,but I would like to get some raw milk. without going out of my way too much.Wife could really do some cooking with that stuff.We had it alot growing up.Who knows what kind of chemicals the goverment is dumping into the milk to make it "safe" to drink.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Roxie

I'm not being argumentive Gary C, but here is another view point.  My experience with the FDA has not been conducive to relying on them for facts.  This is from realmilk.com:

Pasteurization destroys enzymes, diminishes vitamin content, denatures fragile milk proteins, destroys vitamins C, B12 and B6, kills beneficial bacteria, promotes pathogens and is associated with allergies, increased tooth decay, colic in infants, growth problems in children, osteoporosis, arthritis, heart disease and cancer. Calves fed pasteurized milk do poorly and many die before maturity. Raw milk sours naturally but pasteurized milk turns putrid; processors must remove slime and pus from pasteurized milk by a process of centrifugal clarification. Inspection of dairy herds for disease is not required for pasteurized milk. Pasteurization was instituted in the 1920s to combat TB, infant diarrhea, undulant fever and other diseases caused by poor animal nutrition and dirty production methods. But times have changed and modern stainless steel tanks, milking machines, refrigerated trucks and inspection methods make pasteurization absolutely unnecessary for public protection. And pasteurization does not always kill the bacteria for Johne's disease suspected of causing Crohn's disease in humans with which most confinement cows are infected. Much commercial milk is now ultra-pasteurized to get rid of heat-resistant bacteria and give it a longer shelf life. Ultra-pasteurization is a violent process that takes milk from a chilled temperature to above the boiling point in less than two seconds. Clean raw milk from certified healthy cows is available commercially in several states and may be bought directly from the farm in many more. (Sources are listed on www.realmilk.com.)

Average butterfat content from old-fashioned cows at the turn of the century was over 4% (or more than 50% of calories). Today butterfat comprises less than 3% (or less than 35% of calories). Worse, consumers have been duped into believing that low-fat and skim milk products are good for them. Only by marketing low-fat and skim milk as a health food can the modern dairy industry get rid of its excess poor-quality, low-fat milk from modern high-production herds. Butterfat contains vitamins A and D needed for assimilation of calcium and protein in the water fraction of the milk. Without them protein and calcium are more difficult to utilize and possibly toxic. Butterfat is rich in short- and medium chain fatty acids which protect against disease and stimulate the immune system. It contains glyco-spingolipids which prevent intestinal distress and conjugated linoleic acid which has strong anticancer properties.

Powdered skim milk, a source of dangerous oxidized cholesterol and neurotoxic amino acids, is added to 1% and 2% milk. Low-fat yogurts and sour creams contain mucopolysaccharide slime to give them body. Pale butter from hay-fed cows contains colorings to make it look like vitamin-rich butter from grass-fed cows. Bioengineered enzymes are used in large-scale cheese production. Many mass produced cheeses contain additives and colorings and imitation cheese products contain vegetable oils.

Pasteurization laws favor large, industrialized dairy operations and squeeze out small farmers. When farmers have the right to sell unprocessed milk to consumers, they can make a decent living, even with small herds.



Say when

SwampDonkey

Roxie thanks for the post. I follow and believe a lot of what was said even though a lot of it is beyond my knowledge. The part I don't is the last line about making a living with small herds because I've been around small operations with 8-20 cows in the heard and you've got to be doing a lot more than milking cows. Even when grandmother and my uncle made butter and sold it and had the creamery come pick up cream, that $250 monthly creamery cheque didn't go a long way. In the summer they could milk every week or two and have maybe 20 lbs for $3-$4 each. They couldn't make butter in June because of the dandilions. But grandmother's butter was not that white stuff in stores you buy now, it was yellow and all that was added was salt. They used Jersey and Gernsey cows mostly, give higher milk fat. Holstein doesn't make as good butter because my mother tried as well as grand mother and it was that pale white stuff that nobody wanted. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

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Quartlow

Yeah, what Roxie said

SD
Money can be made on small herds, but you have to specialize. Like my nephew wants to do there is a demand for grass fed organic milk
I can't quote you any numbers off the top of my head, have to grill the nephew more on that but he figured he could cover expenses with 3 cows and start generating positive cash flow. That was buying all his hay. Next time I talk to him I'll pick his brain a bit and get you some more info.
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Furby

Quote from: Gary_C on January 13, 2007, 08:15:58 PM
More than 300 people in the United States got sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk in 2001, and nearly 200 became ill from these products in 2002, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

THAT is down right FUNNY!!!!
:D :D :D :D :D

Dan_Shade

I love raw milk, I grew up on the stuff, store bought milk makes me want to yak.  it's taken me 10 years to be able to remotely stomach it.

I'd love to find a source here, but only after I do an "inspection", I know what clean milking conditions are, etc... 

I want to know the percentage of problems, 300 out of how many, and what were the conditions tied to that?

I don't need the government telling me what is safe to put in my body or not. 
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There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

CHARLIE

I personally don't see anything funny about what Gary_C said, and you people can drink all the raw milk you want, but I'll stick to pasturized milk. I've seen too many people with Crohn's disease. And it is a terrible and painful disease too. Some doctors believe Crohn's comes from a bacteria that is harbored in some cows and passed on through the milk.  A doctor in England recommends double pasturization because the specific bacteria is hard to kill. I love drinking a class of cold milk but will always make sure mine is paturized because I don't want to take the chance.....I don't care what RealMilk says.....they just might be biased because they want to sell all the milk they can.  To each his own. Maybe raw milk does taste better, but you can spin the cylinder if you'd like.  I'll drink mine pasturized. A toast to you Gary_C!
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

thecfarm

One of our Amish friends are right into this eat and drink narural.One of thier kids has a rare diease of some sort and needs a certain type of diet to feel good.We took them to a Amish farm to buy milk.Seems like it was $6 a gallon right from the tank.This was supposely pasture raised cattle with very little,if any grain.All grass fed.This really starting to catch on.I thought that was real high,but like they said cheaper than going to a doctor.How true that is.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Dana

Roxie, 8) smiley_clapping smiley_  I grew up on raw milk and haven't come down with any of the dreaded diseases the government has protected us from. As was said, the pasturization issue allows for large commercial operations to sell less than desireable products safely.
Anyone want to discuss meat safety, as it pretains to the large packing facilitys vs small local processors or at home butchering?
If you don't personally know where/how you food is grown raised then radiation, bleach washed chicken, pasturization, are probably the best way to protect your health.
Know your farmer and buy local. ;)
Grass-fed beef farmer, part time sawyer

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Quartlow on January 13, 2007, 11:16:04 PM
SD
Money can be made on small herds, but you have to specialize. Like my nephew wants to do there is a demand for grass fed organic milk
I can't quote you any numbers off the top of my head, have to grill the nephew more on that but he figured he could cover expenses with 3 cows and start generating positive cash flow. That was buying all his hay. Next time I talk to him I'll pick his brain a bit and get you some more info.


I wish him all the best. He'll be needing to get more than $3.00 a gallon for it though. When ever I bring up all the stuff my uncle has done over the years he just says, "Ya gotta try anything once, or you'll never know." And I know some are set in their ways.  ::) Please forgive me, but I'm trying to keep from laughing.  ;D  None-the-less, his cows will be a lot happier on that hay and grass. :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Roxie

I pay $2.75 for a gallon of milk, $2.50 for a quart of yogurt, and $3.00 a pound for butter.  Every now and then, I'll shake my own butter in a quart mason jar just so I can get buttermilk for biscuit making.  

Charlie, if you read the real milk paragraph again, you will see that Crohn's Disease is believed to be caused by Johne's Disease in dairy cows.  Pastuerization does not always kill that bacteria.  Johne's is very contagious in a herd.  A herd or cow that test positive for Johne's is not removed from the milk chain, because they figure it will be pastuerized.  The farmer must request the tests for Johne's and TB.  They are not required by law (in Pennsylvnia) prior to selling a cow.  

The cows we obtain our milk from is a herd of four.  They have all been tested for BVD, Johne's and TB.  They are released to pasture every day and on mild nights they are out overnight.   I would not buy raw milk from a source that I could not visually inspect.  Not only have I inspected this barn, Cowboy Bob and I have milked for this farmer when he had a wedding to attend.  

My personal feelings are that pastuerization is a necessary evil for those who must purchase milk with a long shelf life (like in the city).  But, I believe that anyone that can possibly find a supply of raw milk would benefit from a nutritional and health standpoint by using it.  To those who have used raw milk the statement that there is no difference in taste is beyond imagination.  

I think what Furby is laughing about is the FDA's statement that "200 in 2002 got sick from drinking raw milk."  I don't think he's laughing at Gary C, who kindly took the time to look up the reasoning behind pastuerization.  The throwing out of the number 200 doesn't give any information and in the scheme of things, 200 is mimisicule compared to the numbers of people that consume raw milk.  I'm sure if we looked hard enough, we could find 200 people that got sick from walking down the street.  

Raw milk, to me, is just one more part of my desire to be closer to natural in my dietary habits.  I prefer organic food whenever it is possible.  I prefer heirloom vegetables too.  I understand that I am unusually blessed to have access to this kind of quality in the food I eat.  
Say when

Roxie

The math on dairy income...currently in our area, milk is sold by the hundredweight to a cooperative at $14.00 per hundred.  Figuring 8 pounds to a gallon that hundredweight would equate to 12.5 gallons so a farmer gets 89 cents per gallon when sold to a co-op. 
Say when

SPIKER

Quote from: Gary_C on January 13, 2007, 08:15:58 PM
Here is the official reasons from the FDA for not drinking unpasteurized milk:


Gary:  good find on the info:  personally I think I got sick reading the fda website  :o ;) :D so I applaud you're efforts and I'm not picking at ya just making a smiley face :) 

it is interesting to read both sides of the information on who is right type thing.   I went and read a bunch of info about this back when the Amish farmer was charged they had a paper link (read more here link) which I don't have as it was way back now or else I would post it.   It had links to study on both sides all summed up on one web page which said "You decide" and then had the links pros & cons on there.   not sure if this page is still around but finding anything useful online anymore is dang near impossible (too much bs floating around)  It may still be able to be found if you search all the Ohio Newspaper sites for northern ohio.   not sure if it made national news though...

anyhow I usually drink that 2% stuff now for fat reasons.   and every time I do drink it I seem to end up with a gut ache, getting lactose intolerant I guess...  I never remember getting one when I lived on raw milk back when we got it for free from the family farm...
I think I lived on cereal growing up, we always had 3~4 gallon done a week between me and my brother.   both of us were adventurous to say the least, and not 1 confirmed broken bone!   His kids both have had multiple broken bones now and won't hardly drink a glass of milk, seems they all want POP :( :-X :'(  his son had to have ankle surgery because of the way his ankle broke and now has scar and pins with little movement :(  AI guess it happens a lot with football kickers who catch the ground with the toe when kicking (type of break) that is...

Mark M
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

Quartlow

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 14, 2007, 07:58:52 AM
I wish him all the best. He'll be needing to get more than $3.00 a gallon for it though. When ever I bring up all the stuff my uncle has done over the years he just says, "Ya gotta try anything once, or you'll never know." And I know some are set in their ways.  ::) Please forgive me, but I'm trying to keep from laughing.  ;D  None-the-less, his cows will be a lot happier on that hay and grass. :)

Like I said All I know is he has a market for it all ready. I'll try and call him today to find out some more. I do know he has been researching this for 2 years. He's the type that makes money no matter what he does. Which leads me to believe that since he bought a cow and started milking theres got to be something to it.
Don't worry about laughing SD, I'm kind of used to it. Local farmers around my brother laughed when he went Organic 8 years ago. They don't laugh at him anymore



Gary
Not everything that comes from the government is black and white. When they start trying to regulate things like this you can bet theres some corporate money involved. And it wouldn't be the first time some corporation has had a DR in their pocket to release studies showing the corporation in the better light.  You can bet your last $1 the government isn't giving you all the facts, they tell what they want you to hear.

I do realize due to lags in shipping time and storage we need pasteurization. I can keep raw milk here about 10 days. After that I can notice it changing in smell and taste Funny part is, on the rare occasion when we have store bought milk after about 5 to 7 days I can tell the difference in the smell and taste of it..So tell me just how old was that pasteurized/homogenized milk?

I personally feel properly handled raw milk is just as safe as pasteurized/homogenized milk, key words being properly handled. I respect your right to drink whatever milk you want. I'm just saying it's not for me.
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scgargoyle

Interestingly, there was a big article in our local paper about an organic farmer here in FL, and the discussion turned to the legality of selling raw milk and other products. The farmer has a license to sell 'pet food', so that's what people buy (wink, wink, nod, nod). He claims to be getting $12 a gallon for milk, $6 a dozen for eggs, and $4 a pound for poultry. He joked that people will pay a lot of money for 'pet food'.
I hope my ship comes in before the dock rots!

SwampDonkey

Quartlow, I was just wondering how many gallons of milk does he expect to get from those 3 cows on a daily basis and how many days in a year does he think them cows are able to produce milk at a sustained level. I realize there are other products as Roxie has pointed out, but 1 once of cheese does not equal 1 oz of milk and so on. There is a part of the equation that seems to be left from a lot of discussions here, and that is subsidies, not only on the milk prices, but the feed and maybe even on the purchase of equipment used to make the value added products and again ....maybe even the shipping. ;)

Lets here the whole story. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Fla._Deadheader


In Arkansas, we fed grass. Grain mix fed in the barn. We had 3 cows give right at or near to 100 POUNDS of milk per day. They did this over 200 days, before tapering off, building a calf. We milked 1/3 Brown Swiss, so, BF was always 4.3 or better. In the Winter, for a few years, we fed Cane silage. The cows would give more milk, because the feed was MUCH better. 3-4 GOOD cows, at 4% or better BF, would yield sufficient income, over expenses. We paid around $7.00/100 for feed, and got $7.00/hundred for milk + 7 cents a point for BF above 3.5.

  We traded Silage cutting for haulage, and Hay cutting for hay as pay. Also raised "GreenGraze" as hay crop, OR summer pasture. Arkansas, in the Ozark hills, was NOT the best location for a PRIME Dairy location.

  It worked for us, until I got sick, from Tick bites.

  Locals would cut hay real late, so they could "Seed the Pasture" feeding hay in the winter.  ::) ::)  Never used much fertilizer, and always had "thin" cows. A few had Jerseys.

  The old timers were smart, but cheap.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

SwampDonkey

hmmm $7/hundred for milk and 100 lbs per day.......then expenses. That don't sound like living to me. So, who had the day job? ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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Furby

Thanks Roxie, I had meant to explain what I found so funny, but forgot to.
Yes, I find it extremly funny that one of the excuses they are using to tell the rest of us what we can and can't do is a based on a number that is so small. The number of folks that died from raw milk in a year, probly would have died from some other cause that same year anyways. Posibly even walking down the street.
That's how small of a number they are using to regulate the rest of us.

SwampDonkey

I agree with you on the numbers game Furby.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

I just wanted to say that I'm one of the rare ones  ::) that didn't like the taste of raw milk. There is nothing wrong with the milk, but I never took a liking to it. Even worst  ::) my grandmother would never drink it either, she drank that Carnation powdered skim milk. She had high blood pressure and had some bouts with strokes over the years until one finally got her. She loved her own butter though and buttermilk in her cooking.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Quartlow

SD  just got off the phone with him, The cow is Jersey/holstien cross. She just freshend 8 days ago and she's giving him 3 gallons a day after the calf eats his share.

He's looking to get $4 a gallon right off the farm. which is legal in pa with what they call a dipping permit. He's shooting for enough cows to be milking  25 to 30 head not counting dry cows. Hoping to sell as much product right off the farm with the excess going to Organic Valley He got his newsletter the other day and price is up to $30/100 plus bonus. Which should put him at around $33 to $34/100

He knows he isn't going to get rich, but it should provide him with extra cash to keep playing with pulling antique tractors.






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Roxie

Well, Quartlow, that is awesome!   8)

Note to Furby:  The FDA didn't say 200 people died, they said 200 people got sick.  No specification of what "sick" they got...tummyache or TB.  It would sorta make a difference, hey? 

Say when

Furby

THAT was my point! ;)
The ones that actually died were only percentage points of that 2 or 300.
Sick means anything as you just said.
They are simply using the numbers that best play to their needs.
The fact that folks buy their whole con is what bothers me.

SwampDonkey

Quartlow, that's a far cry from 3 cows my friend. :D :D ;) I've been around hand milked cows all my life and they would give from 2.5 to 4 gallons morning and night. All depends on the utter size and uncle had a couple that were quite big. My uncle carried milk in 5 gallon pales from the barn to the shed to separate, he had 4 full ones and usually a 3 gallon one besides. Carried 2 at a time and sometimes three with that 3 gallon pale. This came from 8 cows. What wasn't consumed at the house was fed to the calves or dumped, and the froth on the top was skimmed off after separation or the calves would get the runs. Couldn't sell the milk because he never dealt with the processors, just sold cream to the coop and they came and picked it up with a delivery truck and cream cans. $4.00/gallon sounds optimistic, no one gets near that here the biggest portion goes to the processor. Prices are set here by the Marketing Board. The big fad here is soy-milk now, dad has even begun using it the last couple years.  ::)


Furby, there are all kinds of them numbers games being played.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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Paul_H

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 14, 2007, 04:33:16 PM
All depends on the utter size and uncle had a couple that were quite big.


That must be embarrassing down at the swimming hole in the Summertime.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Furby

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
DanG that's FUNNY!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Quartlow

I said,, at 3 cows he would start generating positive cash flow Which means he has to work in multiples of 3's
$4 a gallon is not that optimistic, he has a list of 20 folks who want milk at that price and he hasn't even started pushing yet.

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maple flats

Never tried raw milk BUT we did have a cow once. I took my wife to an auction where my brother was selling some bred heffers. Little did I know that she would buy a cow, we lived in a residential section on a 1/4 acre. She bought a 3 teated one for a good price (I wonder why). We asked my brother and he agreed to keep the cow and he would milk evenings while I milked mornings. I really tested the patience of the cow. If I remember right I took me 45 minutes to milk her in the early days (But I had my dad demo and he milked so fast a head of foam filled the bucket, not when I did it) We drank the milk but my brother had a pastuerizer which we think worked right. We made butter and sour cream and tried yogert and cottage cheeze as well as some cheddar cheeze. At the time my wife worked in the lab of a dairy plant and had access to all of the starters etc needed as well as the proceedures. I made a butter churn from a motor with a sheave on it with an off set pin installed which I coupled to a hinged platform that clamped a mason jar to it. When I clamped the jar on I just turned on the motor and it shook real well, I just watched til it changed and then we would press the butter milk out and salt the butter. It was good but soon became old because my wife could bring home 4 pounds of butter a month from work and she had a gallon alum can that she could fill daily at the plant. We then butchered the cow about 6 months later. I have never even considered getting another cow nor have I taken my wife to any auctions where she could buy one. True story!
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

Frickman

I grew up and lived most my life on raw milk. Quit milking in 2000 and sure do miss the milk. I don't remember anyone getting sick off our milk.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

SwampDonkey

Ok, pick on the Donkey.  ::)


The Donkey can kick ya know.  ;D ;)


maple flats, I like your story.  :)

Quartlow, I follow you now. I didn't know he was selling direct or could. It's interesting you have 20 people interested and agree on the price. You couldn't get two people to agree on nothing here, because while one was offering the other would be working at under cutting you.  ;D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

maple flats, my grandfather on mom's side wasn't a farmer. He had horses, but for woods work. He would buy a cow and sometimes it was the lawn mower, sometimes they would take it up to the camp to have fresh milk as they would stay there for quite while during fishing/hunting seasons. He mostly had a cow to keep my uncle busy doing something. Then he (uncle) got interested in cows and had his own. If it weren't for them cows, he wouldn't have been doing much of anything most of his life. ;D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Roxie

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 14, 2007, 04:33:16 PM
I've been around hand milked cows all my life and they would give from 2.5 to 4 gallons morning and night.

I would just like some clarification.  Are you saying that the total milk was 2.5 to 4 in a 24 hour period or did you mean 5 to 8 gallons per day?  Even if you mean 8 gallons a day, that means that the high end is 64 pounds per day, and that is a real mediocre cow no matter how it's milked.  Were they beef cows (like angus or shorthorn) or actual dairy cows?
By the way, I'm not afraid of a donkey's kick.

Say when

thecfarm

Now you're catching on SD.Have to cut out the middle man to make money on milk.Always been that way around here.It's too bad.Milk farmers are a dieing breed around here.I can think of 7-8 small milk farms that are gone now.Younger generation don't want to work 25 hours a day,366 days a year and than one of them need a day job to support the farm.I don't blame them any.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Dan_Shade

my uncle milks about 60 head of cattle, it's definately a routine.  I typically go in to give him a hand when I visit the folks, i'm not good at it, but it keeps me occupied!

they pretty much do enough to keep them from starving, and that's about it.  the small dairy farm is on the brink of extinction.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

SwampDonkey

Jersey and Gernsey mostly and sometimes mixed breeds Roxie, and they were not milked dry like by a machine. Neglected to mention that.  Most times, after the 3 gallon pale was nearly full, went on to the next. But, remember our gallons are bigger in the north. Our gallons are 10 lbs here. It was 2.5 - 4 gallons per cow twice a day.

So on the high end, 4 gallons x 8 cows x 2 twice daily = 64 gallons x 10 lb/gallon = 640 lbs don't it? ;)  I would say it was closer to 450-500 lbs though.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Quartlow

SD I would never pick on the Donkey  ;) not with Shrek for a friend  :D  :D  :D

I make my butter in the ice cream freezer, works GREAT!!!

SD I worked on a Guernsey dairy farm once as a youngin, mild was so high in butterfat that when you opend the lid in the bulk tank the milk had a yellow tint to it. hhhmmmm good stuff!!
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Bill

Quartlow

Haven't had raw milk since I was a kid - even remember the milk changing when the cows went back to grass ( and stuff ) in the spring.

Wisht there was a neighbor close enough to try it again tho Doc says to stick with skim ( gag ) .

:o

SwampDonkey

That's why in my opinion and many others, it's way better than Holstein milk. Father's cows were always Holstein however. Over in Maine, I've noticed that Houltan Dairy butter is yellow, just like old fashioned. ;D However, I don't use butter hardly. Funny how them old uncles of father's lived to be nearly 100 and they ate butter. :D :D

Quote from: Quartlow on January 14, 2007, 10:37:29 PM
I make my butter in the ice cream freezer, works GREAT!!!

Yeah, but it ain't cold when your cranking it. :D  Cream will churn a lot faster when warm, but we don't need to debate that. ;) If it's cold you'll churn for ever.  ;D :D :D :D :D Grandmother would leave it overnight to warm in the churn and start churning at 6:00 am.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Quartlow

Your right it does work better warm, I suppose I should rephrase that. I use the ice cream maker, I just don't use any ice on the outside ;)
I have one of those fancy smancy double action ice bream makers and it makes short work of making butter  ;D
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SwampDonkey

Quartlow, I just had to rib ya a little. ;D


Grandma wasn't quite high tech back then.  :D :D :D But, when she said to skidaddle from the kitchen when the butter was being made, you skidaddaled. :D :D :D One thing about grandmother's butter, you didn't have to worry about it be clean. They used to come over from Maine and buy all she had. And the locals couldn't get enough. She was a shrewd business woman. :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

tim1234

We get raw milk for the kids. Here in Michigan, the only leagal way to get it is through a cow share program.  We actually own part of a cow.  Our farmer developed his program with the state and about a month ago the state siezed his truck and a full load.  Of course they couldn't find anything wrong and the farmer lost his  whole load.  At least he got his truck back.

Think about regular milk.  RBST is a milk producing hormone found in almost all comercial milk.  Your kids drink it every day.  What does it do to them....especially your daugters.

Then there is the anitbiotics.  You can be sure all that stuff ends up in the comercial milk.

Then there is the pasturization.  It is great if the dairy is horribly dirty and a significant chance of milk contaminination. 

Then there is homoginization.  This makes the fat stay in solution and not seperate out.  There is  something in milk called XO.  Homoginization chemically changes this fat molecule and makes it impossible for your body to use it for energy.  The only thing your body can do is store it.

My wife is the expert.

How about the gov. approving meat from cloned animals.  They tell us it is safe and no problems........ I don't believe it.  I trust anything God created.  Man just screws it up...

Tim

You buy a cheap tool twice...and then you're still stuck with a cheap tool!!
Husky 372XP, 455 Rancher, Echo CS300, Alaskan 30" Chainsaw Mill

Bro. Noble

Too bad we can't take some of the impurities out of some of these posts >:(
milking and logging and sawing and milking

SwampDonkey

As far as the contamination of the milk and getting it in the general supply when that truck makes it's rounds.....every pickup of milk at each farm is tested and if it's not right and your milk has contaminated the load you get to pay for the whole load of 'soiled' milk. And as far as what I've seen, and even before there was milk marketing boards here, if your cow was sick and on some kind of medicine, you couldn't sell the milk. Most people were selling to the creamery and in individual cans that were marked for that farmer, so they knew if someone was up to no good. Plus you had a limited number of vets around and all it would take was a couple of phone calls to see if there were any sick cows on the farm. ;) If you go back far enough in time, then the cow would usually have been done in as there was no medicine for the cow.  The farmer usually knew enough not to drink milk from a sick cow or probably found out why real soon. ;)

I thought homogenization was a mechanical process as far as I recall and nothing added to it at all. It is done by forcing the milk at high pressure through small orifices. Just makes the milk more 'uniform' and you don't get that film of milk fat on top of the picture.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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Gary_C

Bro. Noble

Ya, I thought the same thing. However these guys are having so much fun with their conspiricy theories that I decided not to confuse them with facts.   ;D
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Dan_Shade

The truth probably lies in between the two, Gary.  My uncles are diary farmers, they are careful to not contaminate the milk, but they are small.  I knew other dairy farmers (that sold out in the 80's buy-out), and I'd have not touched their milk, they wouldn't either.

anywho, a cousin of mine boiled a jar in water, then went to the tank and drew out a quart, and took it to her Biology class for a bacteria count.  it was lower than the store stuff :)   take that for what it's worth. 

I think it's sad when the government tells me what I can and can't do.  if I want to buy a gallon from a farmer down the road, then I should be able to do that.  I agree that the masses can't do that, but some of us can.

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Bro. Noble

Lots of stuff here that is partly true and lots of stuff misunderstood.  Everyone considersthemselves an expert.  I have a challange for anyone with the guts to do it:

Ask any old-time Voc-Ag teacher who has trained an FFA 'dairy products' team what gives raw milk that good flavor.  They can also tell you how to make your store bought milk taste better :D

I see nothing wrong with getting milk from your neigborhood dairyman (if he's willing to take on the liability of selling to you).  Good homemade cottage cheese is like home raised tomatoes-----you just can't get anything like it at the grocery store.  It may not be as safe,  but some things are worth the risk.
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Dan_Shade

so what's the secret, Noble?  adding cream to it?  :)

I didn't take FFA in high school, I took classes to prepare myself to actually make a living (kinda sad, isn't it...)

with it being more lucrative to plant houses, and a forsight to huge family bickering leaving me with nothing, I packed my bags and went to college :(
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Quartlow

I wouldn't call it a conspiracy theory, but who has more money to lobby the government? Joe farmer, or big dairy's that are pasteurizing milk?
Money talks, and if you think that certain groups don't spend tons of money to get the government to see things their way, well your pretty naive. Thats no conspiracy, its the way our government works.
Smoking kills a whole lot more folks than milk ever will, do you see them outlawing it? You know why. Tobacco industries spend big bucks trying to keep crooked politicians in their pockets

As for Crohns disease. So far all the information I've come across pretty  much goes like so

QuoteThe precise cause of Crohn's disease remains unknown. Our best understanding is that Crohn's disease results from an abnormal immune response in the intestinal tract, triggered by unknown environmental factors, in persons at risk for the disease due to their genetic makeup. There is no clear evidence that diet is involved in causing Crohn's disease.

What is good for you and what is bad for you changes from day to day. one day eggs are going to kill, next day they are good for you.
Like I said before, the results of any given study reflect who paid for the study.

I'll take my own experience of so called facts any day of the week. Raw milk has never killed a soul in my family. In fact I don't know a single person thats ever gotten sick from it. You start worrying about bacteria counts on everything you eat that isn't cooked first, your going to have to cut a lot of stuff from your diet.  ;D 
What is good for you and what is bad for you changes from day to day. one day eggs are going to kill, next day they are good for you.
Like I said before, the results of any given study reflect who paid for the study.

I'll take my own experience of so called facts any day of the week. Raw milk has never killed a soul in my family. In fact I don't know a single person thats ever gotten sick from it. You start worrying about bacteria counts on everything you eat that isn't cooked first, your going to have to cut a lot of stuff from your diet.  ;D 
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SwampDonkey

Bro. Noble , nice to have all the answers ain't it? ;) ;D  :D :D

Quartlow, I think I have read your post at least a couple times.  ;D I know where your coming from. But, I've never been impressed with the produce from 'organic' farmers around here. Simple, most consumers won't buy scabby apples, knarly carrots, wormy cabbage, and scabby potatoes. ;) The ones I've seen are just playing, not making any living off of it. They tend to be very well educated folk: nurses, doctors, pulp mill workers, foresters, government civil servants and the list goes on and this 'gardening' is just a hobby. Not saying there couldn't be some somewhere making a livelihood, but usually there is some form of financial aid involved or the spouse works at a regular day job. I'm not just dreaming this all up, I can fill a page with a list of names that fit the case. There is nothing wrong with that scenario, all the power to them. But, they like to leave the impression that it's a livelihood, and it's just simply laughable. ;)  :D 

Did Louie Pasture really duke us?  smiley_eek_dropjaw
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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Quartlow

Well SD Next summer when things start coming out of the garden you come down, I'll prove you wrong.
Come in the Fall and you can see what my brother takes off in grain. My brother makes his whole living off of organic farming and produce.
I make a nice side income Enough to cover my operating cost's so the veggies I get for myself are basically free. I'm limited in growing space or I would be making more ;)

I don't know what your educated folks are doing but they obviously aren't applying themselves. You can't just plant it and ignore it.
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Dana

Tim1234 The farmer that you mention was cought in an undercover sting operation.
It seems a member of a healthy food buying club had a sick child. She took the kid to the doctor who was unsure of what was wrong. In the interview process the mother mentioned they buy raw milk and from who. The doctor then truned the info over to the health dept. who then turned it over to the Michigan Dept Of Agriculture who put an undercover mole in the buying club. As this is going on, it's found the kid didn't get sick on the milk.
The undercover person continued to buy over the summer with each purchase tested for contaiminents with none found. Eventually they made the 'bust" pulling him over on the highway with the truck full of product a good way from home. They simutaniously raided his home taking all farm records and his computer.
In my opinion the big milk proccesing companies are feeling threatened by the "buy local foods movement" and are lobbying Government for a crackdown to keep their market share.
Grass-fed beef farmer, part time sawyer

SwampDonkey

Personally, I don't think it's right. I'm not against selling clean raw milk or organic for that matter. As far as I know though, the farmers here voted on a marketing board system to ensure fair prices and market share. We can only use so much with a small population.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

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treebucker

We had a dairy farm when I was a kid. Started as Grade B then switched to Grade A. The regulations were heavy. Here's some I remember:

- clorinate our well (yuk!)
- get rid of the outhouse (it was backup only - but very handy with a large family. :D)
- get rid of all hogs and chickens from the farm
- clean the cowshed twice daily and put down new bedding (rule - no cows = no cow pies allowed)
- Milk house/parlor and all equipment must be spotless
- all flies in the milk house/parlor had to be killed after each milking

They even made us quit using our own milk that we pasteurized ourselves.  The pasteurization unit we had held 2 gallon? It heated the milk slowly until it reached the right temp. It did not boil or simmer it. I can see why flash pasteurization would have an ill effect.

Our herd, both Grades A & B, had to be checked for TB, as were all school children, once a year.

The inspector was much feared. They had one we dreaded getting. He always found something wrong. The other guy generally gave us 100%.

I don't miss those days...it was an industrial grind that took too much from a young kid. But don't mind milking a few cows.

We had a few Jersey, Guernsey, and Brown Swiss before we switched to Grade A. We had pail milkers then so you noticed the difference in the milk the different breeds gave. Got rid of all but the Holsteins and switch to pipeline milkers when we went Grade A.  I've heard that a Jersey is a cow for a farmer that's too poor to own a Holstein and too proud to own a goat . ;D

We did testing for the state for a few years. It involved us attending the milking at various farms around the area. The tests looked for weight, fat content and other things I can't remember.

I still remember making butter from those few Jerseys we had. They made good butter because they had a high butterfat count. It always seemed odd that you got paid more for higher butterfat count milk but would buy Holstiens that had lower butterfat counts.

Them's some memories you all have brought back with your postings.

- the smell of onions every spring
- chopping off the hair on the cow's tails using a block of oak and a hachet because we didn't have shears
- seeing the cows eyes glow in the dark when getting them up for milking before daylight/school
- more I can't remember

I remember we had a guy that bought milk from us. He came on weekends when the inspector wasn't around. He started with a few gallons. This increased to 10-20 then as much as 40 gallons a week. I can't remember what he was using it all for.





Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and
I thought to myself, "Where the heck is the ceiling?!" - Anon

farmerdoug

I grew up on raw milk.  My dad keep a few cows until the mid80s to raise veal.  We never were sick because of milk.  Infact the only real problem healthwise I had was ear aches.

I raise vegetables to sell locally and at local farm markets.  I use the standard inorganic fertilizers most farmers use but I use as little pesticides as possible.  My cultivators get a regular workout but the sprayers will last for years.  I do not want to eat the chemicals no more than my customer do.  I cannot sell organic because of the fertilizer I use.  But what really gets me is the fact that people think organic foods are pesticide free.  If you go to the USDA organic growers website they have a long list of allowed pesticides they can use.  If I do not spray my beans at all I still cannot say they are organic but the organic farmer can spray them and call them organic.  It just burns my buttons sometimes when some says that organic is better than the rest.  Besides the organic farms are rarely inspected.  I know of two farms that use chemicals that have been off the list for years but their dad's bought up a large pile and stored it.  They sell organic and the idiots buy it at Krogers and Walmart every summer.

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

Quartlow

USDA organic certification is a joke FD. Theres a ton of stuff listed there thats not acceptable to many of the independent associations Like O.C.I.A.  My brother, Nephew and his neighbor get inspected once a year, and they don't fool around. They find something out of line and they will jerk your certificate in a heartbeat.

Your all ready doing the hard part if your cultivating all ready. Due to high fuel costs we paid less per ton for organic fertilizer last year than my wifes cousin paid for conventional fertilizer.
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farmerdoug

What fertilizer do you use and where do you get it?

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

farmerdoug

You are right on the USDA certs being a joke but that is an acceptable organic regime and that is what is the base.  It is just like everything else, there is a good way but the rules lower the standard to an acceptable way and ruins it. ::)

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

Corley5

The father of a guy I work with on occasion grows organic corn, soybeans and wheat.  The soybeans go to an organic soy milk producer, the wheat to an organic bread maker and the corn goes to an organic chicken farm.  In return for the chicken feed he gets the litter from the houses for fertilizer.  He's making money  :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

isawlogs

  What I miss the most is the making of a hot chocolat in the barn ... My brother and I would bring our cups with the Hersheys powdered chocolat in it , to the barn , and after the choirs where done , we would get ourselfs a hot chocolat from one of the best milk cows in the barn .  8) 8) 8)
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

wiam

I would like to point out that there is no bst in any milk.  Even if a cow is given manufactured bst (all cows have natural bst) there is no bst in the milk. THERE IS NO TEST TO TELL IF MILK CAME FROM A COW THAT WAS INJECTED WITH rBST.  Having said that I am against using rBST and am not sure it is healthy to drink milk from cows treated with it.

I grew up on raw milk and have been considering how to start drinking it again. 

Will

isawlogs

Quote from: wiam on January 16, 2007, 10:50:44 PM

I grew up on raw milk and have been considering how to start drinking it again. 

Will

  Buy a cow  ;) ;D
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Quartlow

Doug
I talked to my Brother, the stuff we used is processed chicken manure,  It came out of Delaware.
its 4/2/3, now before ya go nuts about those low numbers you have to remember one thing, theres NO filler in this stuff like conventional fertilizer
Application was 250 to 300 pounds to the acre. Last time we got it it was $300 a ton. Wifes cousin who farms conventional paid $325 a ton last year.

Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

Quartlow

Quote from: isawlogs on January 16, 2007, 10:57:59 PM
Quote from: wiam on January 16, 2007, 10:50:44 PM

I grew up on raw milk and have been considering how to start drinking it again. 

Will

  Buy a cow  ;) ;D

And milk it!!  :D
Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

SwampDonkey

Father used chicken manure from poultry farms. It was trucked in by the van loads to the field. I don't think anyone uses it now, dunno why.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

thecfarm

The farmers use chicken manure by the trailer truck load around here.Alot of them will plow a road into the fields so it can be dumped in the winter time.It helps that there is a major egg business about ½ an hour from here.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

wiam

Quote from: Quartlow on January 17, 2007, 06:06:56 PM
Quote from: isawlogs on January 16, 2007, 10:57:59 PM
Quote from: wiam on January 16, 2007, 10:50:44 PM

I grew up on raw milk and have been considering how to start drinking it again.

Will

Buy a cow ;) ;D

And milk it!! :D

but that is twice/day every day ::) ::)

Quartlow

Quote from: wiam on January 17, 2007, 09:17:33 PM
Quote from: Quartlow on January 17, 2007, 06:06:56 PM
Quote from: isawlogs on January 16, 2007, 10:57:59 PM
Quote from: wiam on January 16, 2007, 10:50:44 PM

I grew up on raw milk and have been considering how to start drinking it again.

Will

Buy a cow ;) ;D

And milk it!! :D

but that is twice/day every day ::) ::)

Thats what youngins are for  :D  :D
Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

wiam

Look at this guy.  Mark Mcaffee He was at a grazing conference at Vermont Tech on Saturday.  It always impresses me to see someone buck the system and win

Will

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