Bread Boarding...

[SwampDonkey]

Got any Jam and peanut butter? ;D

[TexasTimbers]

Wow this thread really took off while I was snapping pictures! I was not clear as I thought I was, but I can see that sfixx and I are on the same page. Thanks for holding the fort down while I was gone sfixx. 
The DT joint is not glued inside the actual joint but in the center dowel.

Best to glue just the center dowel or center of the DT joint so the joint can float so the expansion of the top will not tend to tear things apart. ;)

Can you explain how that is possible?

Yes. I think I can! ??? I thought it was clear to begin with, but I can see how it could be taken literally to the extreme.  The text you boldened to better ask your question, was not the area I was saying would accept the actual glue, but I was describing the area along the DT joint where the dowel is "in the center of the dovetail joint itself". It was sort of redundant really and I can see now that i am typing another explanation where I wasn't clear after all! Sorry.
I made some assumptions here that you would "be inside my head" so to speak. I think the key concept here is where I stated several times throughout this thread about "Floating Dovetails" because they can't float when you glue them. I'll try to be clearer next time.  ;)

[Ianab]

That sort of movement is just a feature of breadboard ends, 6 months time the table might have grown again and the gap will be the other way round  :
Even after the top is varnished it will still move, just slower. Seasonal movement instead of changing with the weather

Cheers

Ian

[TexasTimbers]

You are right Ian but I didn't want to get a debate going with SD he is more stubborn than me.
I think everyone on the forum is aware of the fact that wood movement cannot be retsrained completely - even in sheetgoods.

[Furby]

Sometimes I'd love to be able to get inside other folks heads. ;D
Sometimes I do get inside other folks heads. :
Most times it's a job just staying inside my own head.


Center of the joint....... middle of the panel.
I understand how the gluing works with a standard mortise and tenon type joint just as Bob explained.
The joints can be pushed together at their respective points so that the glue only contacts where it is placed in the joint.
On a dovetail slot joint one piece is slid along the other for the length of the piece, thus spreading glue the whole way.
If there is a way to just glue the center/middle of the joint, I'd love to hear it, that's why I asked.

[TexasTimbers]

I never said there was. I'm not saying it now. Let it go Furby. Take a valium and call me in the morning.  ;D

[Furby]

What's your number doc ???

[TexasTimbers]

BR549 - now I know you had to know that was coming.  :D

[Furby]

Da yup!

[SwampDonkey]

Well you know me. I'm going to go against the grain  : and sand off that end smooth. I know stuff will still move in reality, but with that vapor barrier applied it ain't gonna move too much. ;D 

[sfixx]

All the opinions in this thread are fun, thanks for allowing me to participate ;D One thing that I like to leave in handmade furniture is what differentiates it from what people buy at big box stores and "high end" furniture stores, the makers marks. I like to use hand tools and rarely shoot for perfection...I don't have that much patience and most people don't appreciate it anyway, besides I hate sanding! I'm also kinda lazy I guess...the breadboard ends on my dining room table have been slightly proud even in the summer (humid season) for 15 years now. I could have sanded them when I felt the table had expanded to its maximum width. It's pine with a Danish Oil finish and moves plenty but I would much rather it be a little proud than have the breadboard caps too short, that would look silly

Steve

[beenthere]

SD
From what I've been led to believe, there are no vapor barriers that you can apply that work. The only one close to perfect is parrafin wax.  Now granted, a moisture barrier is different. But wood will move when its moisture content changes, and a constant relative humidity is pretty much the only way to keep it from moving. I would imagine that slowing the movement with several coats of finish will help some.

To all
When woodworking, I think it's best to design and do the construction that will allow that wood to move and not tear the project apart.
If this Board is going to be helpful to the Forum members looking for help on wood projects, seems to me it will be prudent that good design and woodworking technique be the focus. That comes with giving it a special place to discuss woodworking in the forum.

[TexasTimbers]

I would like to reiterate to everyone that an important consideration in furniture building is the long term service life of the piece. I haven't been harping on it (and won't *harp* now ) because most guys don't want to talk about it, but 14 - 15 years is not really long term (remember I have a breadboard top that I joined with glue and biscuits 14ish years ago and it has not wrecked but I am confident it will at some point). That is still in the piece's infancy unless it is just a thrown-together stop gap piece to serve a temporary task, or even just for functionality alone where service life is a consideration but not paramount; say,  like a kitchen step stool where you didn't really intend to make it a hand-me-down for generations but want it to be around as long as you are.
On the flip side of course, it's often that kind of piece that outlasts the kitchen table & chairs you took 3 months to build.   :
But that relentless (and, ahem!  un-stoppable, SD) seasonal movement will eventually work on any glue joint, and even any dry, pegged joint. It might take 1 year and it might take 100 years but eventually the joint can be compromised to some degree. That doesn't necessarily mean the joint will fail or that the piece will be rendered disfunctional.

I agree that, given the same overall conditions in the environment that the piece sees year in and year out, it does not make sense that the wood would move any more or less. It doesn't have to either; seasonal movement has a cumulative effect on a piece of furniture. The choosing of the correct joints, glues, grain orientation, wood species, dimensions, and yes to some extent the finish, will all affect the serviceability of the piece by either minimizing the effects of the movement of the wood, or by exposing poor choices in any of these areas.

beethere and oshscolo y'all keep trying to get SD to admit his piece is going to move more than he thinks and I am telling you HE is the one that is not going to move; on his admission of it.  ;)  :D

SD I am on your side buddy that top is solid as an oak! 

[Paschale]

This is some interesting reading, and like kevjay said, it sure took off on its own!

As to my table top, from some of the initial comments, it sounds like a bread board isn't really necessary.  But...the way to attach it to the carcass is vitally important.  That table top will want to spread out when the summer months hit, along with high humidity.  So that's probably the biggest level of concern for me right now.  There are directions in the WOOD magazine on how to do it, but I'm curious how you all like to attach a table top to a carcass like this to avoid the wood movement breaking apart the project.

[TexasTimbers]

Again, so many options here. If the top is kiln dried and the service environment is inside, it may not be necessary to allow the top to float, and it probably wont sreck your carcass. If the carcass ends (not sides) are not plywood, but are solid lumber with grain orientation running the same at the top, then remember your sides are going to at least "somewhat" follow the expansion/contraction of your top. Of course they are probably running perpindicular unless they are of a tall design.
Barring that, there are many ways to float the top from metal ell brackets with elongated holes to alow the fasteners to slide in them, to all manner of fancy joinery!
For a 20" top like yours on an end table I wouldn't think it is gong to wreck the carcass and that you can get away with any type of glued joinery you want from dowels to biscuits to spline and rabbet.
Hmm just re-read your post it IS air dried - before we go on what is the MC?

[Paschale]

It's been air drying for about four years, the last year or so in the house, so it's very low...6-8% range, so it should be good to go.  It's as dry as forced air heat in the middle of winter will allow.   ;D

[TexasTimbers]

I stand to be corrected here because I am a recent study of KDing and MC etc.,  but even had it been KDed it would still bounce back up to whatever EMC would be there, probably more like 9 - 12%,  but still okay IMHO. 

I say all things considered attach it any 'ol way ya want and you're good to go!  8)

[SwampDonkey]

 ;D Well before I take anymore abuse on the subject... : I just wanna make a point that I will admit when I'm wrong, when I'm wrong.  :P So, have not fear, come this June-July there will be a picture of this desk on this board somewhere. Now, you made me go up stairs and look real close at the joinery of my cherry bed I made back in 1995. The wood was air dried (except the legs-kilned) for about 2 years. I looked real close at the joints of that bed and could see not even a hairline split in the joints except when the headboard joins into the legs and even there it was thinner than a thumb nail. I know there had not been much movement because there is the odd spot where wood filler was applied and it has not broken (just in the previous joint mentioned). So I think I've been quite lucky.

I went and checked a display case for my salmon flies made about the same time as the bed and I see some movement there at the joints. But, no thicker than a thumb nail. I used finger joints, but not like you think of on finger jointed flooring, the fingers are 3/4" wide. There is a pic in the forum someplace buried.

Now back to our breadboard discussions. ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Kevin, I'de say your correct. And I don't even operate any kilns, but I have studied the subject and worked with wood. I don't claim to be no expert by a long shot as some might elude to with wide swiping brushes.

A humbled Swampdonkey. ;)  ;D :D :D

[TexasTimbers]

SD I don't think anyone is saying your stuff is gonna wreck. I'm not anyway. I kid with ya cause you can take it but I'm just saying that the consequences of improper application of techniques like types of joinery etc, like I chose 14 years ago (and it looks still good too) are not necessairly going to show up (if ever, granted) in the first 10, 15 years.

As for me, I know I chose the wrong type of joinery for my breadboard at least IMO. I have a pretty good idea that one of my son's, daughter's or one of their kids is gonna look at that Ash top with the walnut breadboards about to fall off and say "Ol grandpa Kevin sure didn't know how to make a breadboard that would last did he?"  :

[SwampDonkey]

Kevin, and All .. I have been following your advise and insight on this thread as well as others. And I think most if not everyone can make use of the information we share and draw on our own experiences and make our own decisions. If you try something and it don't work, I for one ain't going to be blaming anyone. What works for me, might not for you. There is no method in the world that is fool proof. If we are all going to be worried about what information we share , we might as well go to our shops and close the door because the attitude/atmosphere in here is going to be that 'nobody knows nothing but me'. ;)

Right from the start, if you read my posts on my projects in the Drying and Processing board I was just sharing with everyone my progress as I worked on them. Kind of like a blog of sorts. They weren't meant as instructional text with photos, but just what I was doing and how. Just a way of showing how things are coming together/unfolding toward a finished piece of furniture.

So with that all being said, you know where I'm coming from. After I get this desk built, it's time to concentrate for awhile on the book. What better place than a nice new butternut desk to work on?

Have a good one.  ;D

[pigman]

As to my table top,............  There are directions in the WOOD magazine on how to do it, but I'm curious how you all like to attach a table top to a carcass like this to avoid the wood movement breaking apart the project.

On end tables, night stands and other small tables I usually put corner braces in and screw through the brace into the top. I will use a slotted hole in the brace and sometimes drop the brace down 1/4 in from the top to give the screw a chance to shift some.  On larger tables with aprons, I will cut a dado along the inside of the stretchers and use small wooden L brackets  to secure the top. On thicker tops without aprons I just use slotted holes in the support members to fasten the top.  Metal figure  8s are good to fasten tops, but I have never used them, I like to do things the hard way. 


Bob

[Larry]

I'm curious how you all like to attach a table top to a carcass like this to avoid the wood movement breaking apart the project.

Like this.




Got a whole bag of tricks but this is the only picture I have...and like Bob I detest store bought clips sold for table tops.

My breadboard solution...but you have to understand my brain has been warped since birth.  Leave a 1/4" crack or two right in the center of your panel.  Pin the panel to the breadboard at the end of the breadboard.  No glue other than at the pin.  The panel is free to expand and contract at your 1/4" cracks.  Don't think this would work for SD but for Paschale building in the arts and craft style the crack could be considered a design element...and presto your work will command prices in the millions.  If you think this method is weird I got one using pins and copper rods...it's beyond words so I'll have to dig out the camera.

[pigman]

Larry, I haven't used the wooden L brackets on that kind of support, but I like it and will try it on my next table of that type. 8)  Learn something new every day.

Bob

[SwampDonkey]

I have been wracking my warped brain to come up with an idea to mount that desk top. I know how the upper shelves are going to sit on the top, with dowels so I can take it off, even though the whole thing will be around 5 feet high, and I'm not likely to ever take it off once it's on there. ;D At this point I'm thinking to use brass L brackets on the corners, they will be mostly hidden anyway and won't be too obvious on finished butternut. Certainly dowels at each corner isn't going to cut it. Still cogitating