Land Buying Question for TF home site.

[bigshow]

I would like some opinions if any of you can provide some input.  I'm ready to make an offer on land.  I dont have a realtor working for me, i figure run the papers past a real estate attorney - easy enough.  It seems to me, that no one around here (buyers, sellers, real estate agents, lawyers) have any interest at all in anyone taking any kind of precaution on the transaction.  For example, before I buy the land, i want to know if it will support a basic septic system (all gravity, no pumps or other super costly workarounds) and that the land is free from environmental defects (fertilizer/fuel spills, etc).  I cannot find a realtor who will ask these questions of the seller cuz they state that I have unrealistic expectations and local sellers would never agree to start the bargaining process should such things be brought up.  When i bought the house i have now, i asked my agent and sellers agent if it contained any asbestos products and lead paint - both said i was crazy for even bringing it up. 
So, am I asking too much???

thanks in advance for any dialogue....

[Jeff]

Heck no your not!  As for the environmental issues, I think that is required disclosure here in Michigan. For the septic system in Michigan "perk tests" are more often then not part of the purchase offer agreements.

[scgargoyle]

We just bought 7 acres in SC, and we made those kind of conditions contingent on the sale. I was told that land that won't 'perk' is nearly useless. Nobody seemed to think our demands were unreasonable. When buying land, the more you can learn the better. I researched land on GIS, which many counties or states have available on-line. I was able to look at topography, flood zones, soil types, even criminal activity before ever setting foot on a piece of land. You can also zoom out to see what kind of potential neighbors you might have. One lot we looked at was only a few hundred yards from a sewage treatment plant- which the realtor never mentioned! I also wrote to the local governments to see their future development plans, to make sure that we weren't buying near a future airport or shopping center. You can look at Google Earth (free to download) which is fun and sometimes informative. We emptied all the piggy banks to buy our land- we took a LOT of precautions!

[Ron Scott]

No you are not asking too much. Ditto to the above replies. Ask and find out everything you can before purchasing. Get answers to all your concerns before hand.

As Jeff stated, such disclosures are required here.

[Larry]

Just throwing out thoughts.  In the past a perk test consisted of digging a hole and dumping water in the hole.  Timed how long it would take for the water to disappear.

To make a perk test now, you dig a hole 4' deep with a backhoe.  A soil engineer looks at the soil and records the soil type.  This determines how many feet of laterals your gonna need.  The engineer than makes a plan for the septic system.

So...iffen your buying 40 acres where you dig that hole could make a big difference as to the soil types, in some cases.

So...iffen the seller agrees to provide a perk test the results have to be disclosed to any prospective future buyers.

So...as a seller I'm not about to provide you with a perk test.

So...as a buyer I'm gonna find the best qualified septic system installer in the county.  He will be able to tell at a glance if the site will perk or not.  If he is not sure I'm gonna get me a engineer and put him on my payroll.

As to the environmental hazards I think the standard is for the agent to drive around the property...if they see a drum that says DIOXIN I'm sure they will put a note in the contract.  I worked for a buyer last fall to buy a section...the real estate company was extremely careful to list all potential hazards.

And I know you guys like pictures so:





I knew the site would easily pass a perk test...look at that Arkansas rich black top soil on top...plenty of chicken litter mixed in there.  Little further down it's still good nuff clay to perk.  But at the bottom it is solid bedrock...took a little extra effort to get the septic tank down.

But those engineers don't care a hoot about the bedrock...all they wanta see is a site that perks.

Buyer beware.

[Furby]

When purchasing property, you can write in any kind of "condition" you want in the cotract.
I strongly suggest the perk test be in there and that YOU pay for AND handle the details in getting someone to do it.
Also suggest that you are onsite while any test are done, so that you have a better understanding of what was done and where.

I pulled out of a contract several years back due to a failed perk test that would have required me to install a "raised" septic system. The reason was the high ground water 2' down. I had in the contract that I wanted to be able to build a house with a full basement. The high ground water would have given me trouble and the expense of the raised septic was something I didn't want. The full basement requirement allowed me out of the contract with my deposit.

The agents you are dealing with are not representing you as you said. Thus their only interest is the sale of the property as easily and smoothly as possible, they have no concerns for your "wants/needs".

[sawmilllawyer]

Don't know where you are but here in Oklahoma the known existence of environmental contamination is required by law. Further, contracts concerning raw or unimproved land usually require that the property pass a perk test conducted in accordance with procedures set by the State/County Department Health. Also as part of the conditions to purchase the property you can require the existence of potable water (water well/ local pipeline, ect..). Ditto to what the earlier posts said. Just cover yourself in the contract even if it's written on a brown paper bag.  be diligent and do not be sorry, later. 

[MSU_Keith]

Besides perk and environmental issues be sure to ask about zoning and road commision access issues (don't ask me how I know about this one).  You can go to the county and/or township and file freedom of information act for all info on the property.  It will show all previous permits applied for, any issues environmetal issues, previous well and septic permits issued, any meeting minutes were the property discussed, etc.  Alot of this information is hardcopy only and goes back to before everything was 'digitized'.

[Thehardway]

The alternate point of view:

The first rule of real estate buying is LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION.

The second rule of real estate buying is PRICE PRICE PRICE

To put things in better perspective if the location is what you desire and the price is cheap enough then buy it.  It is usually easy to get the seller to drop the price of land a couple thousand but if you start to ask him to do all kinds of special things he will not come off the price at all.

Let's say you are looking at a 15 AC lot.  The asking price is 45K.  There is no well or city water and no perk on file.

You use these maybe's as a negotiating tool and get the seller to drop the price to $38,900 and pay the closing costs.  All he has to do is show up at the table, sign the paper's and collect the cash. You just saved yourself 6k.  Average well cost $3500 and septic $3500.  You have to pay that much regardless of whether it perks or not and you won't know how deep the water is 'til you drill. Let's say it won't perc at all.  You can install a composting toilet or incinerating toilet and a gray water irrigation type system for 10K or so. Soil can be hauled in that will drain. Let's say there is no water.  You can install a rainwater collection system with UV purification for about 5K.  The only "unbuildable site" is one you don't own.

On the other hand you start wanting the seller to do perk test gaurantee water and "Unknown's".  He will now refuse to sell to you or will be willing to negotiate very little.  The perc test will only be good for 180 days and only within a certain number of feet of the place in which it was performed which will most likely not be where you want to build. 0 value to you.  He can gaurantee the water but that is not to say that a year after the sale your well won't go dry or get contaminated from a nearby landfill or industrial spill. Nor is it to say that it will be free of gas, sulphur, iron, arsenic, calcium, etc.  I think you get my point.

My advice:

If the land has been subdivided it was probably perked when it was subdivided.  If the neighbors have good water at a reasonable depth chances are you will as well.  Best thing to do is investigate the area and the land on your own.  Ask the owner if you can walk around on it and take some soil samples yourself. Get to know the owner and find out the why behind him selling.  Take a post hole digger and dig a few holes at the site you think you might want to put the house on.  Take note of the order in which the different soil types come out of the hole and bag them accordingly.  Topsoil, clay, sand, gravel, loam, silt , your local agricultural extension office can do a free analysis which will include PH and give you a good idea what kind of grass will grow as well. (fill the hole back in when done so no one gets hurt and the owner doesn't get mad)

Look around.  What kind of vegetation do you see?  Is the flora/fauna stuff that grows in a swamp or in well drained soil.  It can give you a good idea of what the soil is like.  Willows and sycamores grow near lowlands and wet areas, Oaks and Cherry and hickories usually in highlands and well drained areas.

How does the land lay? Flat, hillside etc.  This often has more to do with successful drainage than the soil type does.  On top of a rise between two differrent water sheds can be bad. 

What is the solar orientation?  Proper solar orientation can save you big $ on heating and cooling especially if a lot of glazing is in your dream house plans as many have these days.  Where are the best views?  Do they coincide with the solar orientation?

How about noise sources.  Nothing worse than building and then finding that the firehouse siren is just around the bend or that the neighbor builds race cars and dyno tests the engines every night at 10:00.  Good idea to see if the owner will let you camp for a night on the property.  After all, you will be the one who has to sleep there every night after you buy.  Some places take on an entirely different character after dark.

What are the zoning laws and subdivision ordinances.  Is there an architectural review board?  If so they may not even let you build a TF.

Is real estate appreciating in the area or depreciating?

Look at the tax and court records.  You can find out what the current owner paid and what neighboring properties have sold for.  This will put you at an advantage when negotiating.

Are the local building inspectors OK and familar with TF homes?  If not they could demand engineering stamps and extra inspection fees for everything which will cost you a lot of $.

Visit the property in different seasons.  When the leaves are out it can hide lots of things like junk cars, batteries, landfills, rock, springs and creeks, etc. Only visiting in the winter with no trees can conceal some of a properties most beautiful features such as fruit trees, blossoms, flowers, etc.

What developments if any are scheduled for the area?  Is Wal-Mart going to be building a Superstore next year a mile away? Is a low income housing development in the works on the adjacent parcel?  Many times these are factored into an owners reason to sell.

Finally, what are the neighbors and schools like.  More people move because they hate the neighbors or because the neighbors hate them than probably any other reason.  Make sure they are people who agree with your style of living. Make sure  the school system is good.  Even if you don't have children, the schools are a snapshot of the type of people who will be living in the area in the next 10-15 years.  They also reflect what you will be paying in taxes in the future.


Hopefully you get my point.  All of the previous suggestions are good but water and sewer can be rectified with a little extra $ in even the most difficult of situations. The location and all that goes along with it cannot be changed regardless of what promises the seller concedes to and how much money you spend.

I would like to think it is better for all of society to get to know people than to hire lawyers to protect themselves from getting to know people.  Most bad deals are made in ignorance and lack of diligence not willful deception and lack of laws.

[sawmilllawyer]

 ;D Well said Hardway. I think you covered the gist of it.

[bigshow]

thanks for all the responses, all very helpful and i do believe have helped me accept the reality of it all.....

I did go ahead and make an offer (~full price, was going to ask for contingency for a passing perk test paid for by me - but never got that far), but the owners thought about it over night, pulled the property off the market, and are going to build on it themselves.  hahahahahahah..oh well.

Been looking for plans B, C, D, etc....

[scgargoyle]

I think we were on plan 'Q' when we finally bought our land :D :D :D Now we're on about plan 'W' when it comes to selecting a construction method, floorplan, etc. Our place should be our last- eventually a place to retire. We are nearly poor, and can't afford to do any of this more than once, so we are doing a LOT of planning, learning, researching, etc.

[Raider Bill]

I'm keeping myself up at night thinking about my house plans, placement, tractor, building system, will ICF's work with timber frame and sips, post placement, which direction will it face, what end will the overhead doors be on, what extieror material will I use ........................... this list goes on and on and on, I got scrapes of paper everywhere with scribbles of notes.
Driving my friends crazy asking questions, .................... smiley_alcoholic_01
I have at least 2 trees worth of graph paper filled with sketches.

[Thehardway]

Bill,

I feel your sleepless nights.  I'm in for the second round with the septic inspector Fri.  8) He hit "rock" (some packed shale) when he drilled his sample hole first time around.  I lined up a mini-excavator for Fri. and we'll give it another go.    I'm going ICF to the gable for walls, Heavy TF kingpost trusses for roof, Hardiesiding for exterior finish. Radiant heat supplemented with passive solar hot water, and maybe geothermal pump for AC.   Probably a built up roof and steel roofing of some kind.   So many decisions and so little money. :-[  So far the driveway and site excavation is 90% done (all 1000' of it and 100 plus stumps) culverts are placed in creeks and I've spent less than 1k.  I'm putting up a 8X12 shed to stay in after a long night and weekends tommorrow.  Will also allow me to secure tools and save on set up teardown time.  It is a 1 1/2 hour drive from my current home. Give me an email and we can compare notes.  I think I'm on revision 4000 of my plans.  The wife has just about had it with me changing my mind.

[Raider Bill]

Once I get started I think I'm going to get a 40' shipping container to store supplies in and set up a cot.
I'm at a point where I'm trying to figure out the best and easiest way to timber frame the roof over ICF's and have exposed posts in the great room 24x40 for looks but not have too many beams in the basement shop for support.

[pegs1]

Bill,

We built an ICF/timber frame about a year ago.

Walls where ICF all the way to the eaves.

We used an 8x12 timber plate on top of the ICF and from there up it was pretty much conventional timber framing.

The plate extended inside the house about 4 inches and there were posts around the perimeter which were exposed on the inside.   Some structural some not.   The center post was structural as were all of the load bearing girts. 

Nice house when it was done.   Except for the thickness of the posts you couldn't tell it wasn't a conventional timberframe, unless you really knew what you were looking for.

The biggest issue was planning.   I've never met a concrete guy that said " I don't ever get the walls straight, square or level",,   But I have yet to see one who did.   Timber Framing is a pretty exact business so you have to plan for the "what if' factor.

[Raider Bill]

The outside walls are to be ICF 40x48, bedrooms, baths etc will be on either side totalling 12 x 40 with conventional interior walls seperating them. The walls between the great room and bedrooms I would like to be exposed timber for looks and support. My delimma is I want the middle great room 24x40 to be timber frame including the roof system but I'm not sure how to accomplish this and still have as much clear span in the basement as possible while supporting the timber posts in the living area.
I think I've thought myself into a mental block with the floor and roof system. smiley_dizzy

[bitternut]

Bigshow I think a lot ( no pun intended ) depends on whether you are purchasing acreage or a building lot. Most places if you are buying a building lot the sale should be contingent on your being able to build on it. For acreage I doubt that would normally be part of the standard contract. Maybe you should talk to a real estate attorney first to see what the standard real estate contract looks like in your area. They usually have a standard contract that you could look over. Since you will need one anyhow you might as well talk to one at the start and they will be able to give you lots of advice on how things are handled in your locality.

I would also suggest that you talk to the County Health Dept. once you have a possible site to find out what type of septic is usually required in the general area. They are the ones that will have to OK any system and they should be able to give you a heads up on the norm.

Also once you have selected a possible purchase I would be sure to require a title search to be sure you can get clear title. This would show any easements or other claims on the property which may not be disclosed by the seller.

If buying acreage you will want to also be sure of any mineral rights or timber rights that may or may not go with the sale. I do not own the mineral rights on my woods and I must have 30 or 40 old wells on the 200 acres. They left all their crap just laying when they left and I am always finding pull rods and pipe just under the grass or weeds.

One other thing a title search will show is whether another person might have a claim to the land such as the one I have on my neighboring property. I bought part of my neighbors acreage and the sale contract had a paragraph which gave me right of first refusal on the remaining property. If the seller does not disclose this to the buyer the only way it would show up is with a title search or when I come knocking on their door with a copy of my contract. This has already occurred when the owner tried to sell the remaining property on a land contract without offering the deal to me. Needless to say the deal fell through.

Anyways take your time and research your purchase well. A lot of good advice has been given by others so take your time. Its your money so spend it wisely and good luck in your search.

[routestep]

This topic is a little old, but my two cents.

My brother is looking at a lot that has a 3/8 mile right of way through three other lots. On top of the septic/perk clause he put in an electric power clause. To get electricity he would have to get permission from all the owners of land that his power lines would have to cross. The right of way drive is only for ingree and egress, not utilities.
The power company rep came out to start the fesibility assessment and told my brother he did a smart move, some folks have refused the power company and easment for lines because they didn't want the trees cut down or lines through there lots.