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consultant or not?

Started by mainiac, January 06, 2007, 06:18:48 PM

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mainiac

Here is the situation. I have about 14 acres that has not been touched in years and it is not handy for me to manage a cutting operation. A local cutter to the land and no one I know called me and offered to do the cutting out of the blue. Had not really considered it before his call. Do I go with someone like him and hope that he is an honest cutter or do I hire a consultant in the area to manage the operation. Looking for a selective cutting.

I have absolutely no experience doing this so I have no idea what I am getting into.

Any help would be most appreciated.

Mainiac

Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.

Ed_K

 Defiantly get a consultant. Also watch the hardwoods the price for most are down now, let them grow a little longer as its good interest, better than a cd.
Ed K

Reddog

Get a Forester who works for you. And not one from the lumber company.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Ed_K on January 06, 2007, 06:27:08 PM
Defiantly get a consultant. Also watch the hardwoods the price for most are down now, let them grow a little longer as its good interest, better than a cd.


Depends on where your at and what your growing. In my area the CD is a much better option. Logging isn't all profit. I've looked at the numbers many times and the investments always win out, even with modest interest. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Furby

You need a Forester that is working for you because your definition of "selective cutting" is probly waaaaaay different then the logger's definition.

Ron Wenrich

Get the opinion of more than one consultant.  If the logger is calling you out of the blue, then you probably have some pretty decent timber.  Consultants will get you more money for your timber, but some leave a lot to be desired in their management techniques.  Although they work for you, they are taking their paycheck from your woodlot.  That's why you need more than one opinion.

One thing about "selective" logging, it all depends on who's doing the selection.  I've seen good selective logging, but a ton of bad selective logging.  They've been done by loggers, procurement foresters and consulting foresters.  Good management is dependent on what you leave in your woodlot, not what you take out. 

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Phorester

Good advice from everybody. The logger who contacted you out of the blue is working for himself.  Nothing wrong with that.  But you need a knowledgable person in your woods working for you.  That will be a consulting forester.

There's a lot more to good forest management than just cutting trees.

Ken

Although there are responsible loggers out there with your long term objectives in mind my experience leads me to believe that there are far more who are looking out only for their own short term interest.  The term "selective cutting" is troublesome if the cutting objectives are not clearly stated.  Too often the logger, when given an opportunity to work a woodlot without supervision, will "select" only the trees worth cutting leaving you with a highgraded woodlot.  My advice would certainly be to obtain the services of a reputable consultant and references from other landowners the logger has worked for. 


With todays depressed markets, especially in our neck of the woods, you are probably wise to wait.  Your trees are probably not going to lose value over the next few years.  Good luck.

Lots of toys for working in the bush

SwampDonkey

Glad your still with us Ken. Keep on Keep'n on.

We should be thinning in this weather. ;D  ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Scott

It's always recommended to seek out the services of a professional consulting forester that works directly for you to protect your interests. Select one that you are comfortable with and comes with good references.

Contact the Association of Consulting Foresters of America, Inc at
www.acf-foresters.org or your local Conservation District Forester to find  professional foresters serving your area.
~Ron

PineNut

I sold some timber over 30 years ago. Had several people come by and give me a price, the highest of which was 8,000. Had a cruiser come in and set up a competitive bidding and we received 25,000 after paying the commission. I believe this shows the importance of having a professional work for you. 

SwampDonkey

Pinenut, I've seen that happen just between loggers. One guy offered $2000 fort a 10 acre piece and another guy got the job for $6000 and he told me the site yielded over 300 cords of softwood. I was surprised because we had cut a lot of spruce off it for potato sheds over the years. Some of that ground I picked wild strawberries, many moons ago.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

MDP

A good "reputable" logger with references and other jobs for you to look at is a good way to go also.
As with any of the options listed be sure to get references and talk to people who have worked with the individual or company and look at other jobs they have been a part of, whether it be logger or forester, before you commit to anything.
Good luck in managing your forest.


Mark

Ron Wenrich

If you want to see some real interesting bidding, try auction bidding.  That's where ABC Lumber bids a price on a tract of timber.  Then, you tell XYZ Logging what they offered you.  XYZ tries to top ABC.  Then, go back to ABC and tell what XYZ has offered.  Keep going until someone wins the bid.

It gets real interesting when one company wants the other one to bid too high.  Losing a sale is one thing, but having your competition pay too much for timber is priceless.  You have to have some cut throat businessmen in order for it to work. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

Ron, lots of them around here. It's the general mentality.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

logger

You don't want to be like a friend I know, he had 110 acres of prime cherry, maple, oak, yellow poplar, birch.  All in the 30"+ dbh range most of them clear to the double heart.  He didn't have a forester come in and just told the logger to do a selective cut.  The logger gave him $8,000 for all of it, was probably worth $200,000. :-\ ::) >:(
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Rocky_Ranger

I done a job for my family back in 1999, back before I started working for Uncle Sam again and intervened on a sale of 4,500 ton of pine logs and chip n saw.  The going price up and down the valley was $25/ton.  I got $45/ton.  Bottom line was over $90,000 more to the family.
RETIRED!

Brian Beauchamp

Way to go, Rock! These are the kinds of things I like to hear.

Definitely get a consultant. Like someone mentioned earlier, the Association of Consulting Foresters (ACF) can direct you to a consultant in your area. Because of the way they have their standards for membership set up, they have a very good base of members with high moral standards that are the epitome of professionals. They will direct you well on your best direction on this potential sale and knowing the nature of the ACF, the consultants who are members will put your best interests before their own.

On average...and this is from one of my forestry professors at OSU...a timberland owner utilizing a forestry consulant to assist with a sale will receive about 30% more for that sale. Considering that they charge 7-15% for administration of the sale, this is definitely a good investment. 

Quote from: Rocky_Ranger on January 07, 2007, 07:53:10 PM
I done a job for my family back in 1999, back before I started working for Uncle Sam again and intervened on a sale of 4,500 ton of pine logs and chip n saw.  The going price up and down the valley was $25/ton.  I got $45/ton.  Bottom line was over $90,000 more to the family.

Phorester


Brian, I'd say your professor needs to get out more and talk to landowners.  I bet his assessment of what a landowner can get hiring a consulting forester versus not hiring one is way low.  I've probably said before on this site that landowners in my area routinely get 200% to 300% more for their timber hiring a consulting forester than if they sell it themselves.

SwampDonkey

I agree with Phorester. I looked after a woodlot for a man down in Gardner, Maine. He only came to the woodlot about twice a year, sometimes never. He was offered by many loggers a lump sum of $25,000-30,000 and they were going to liquidate the place. I got him $15,000 from the front 1/3 of the lot in the first phase of the project in the coldest winter months and then another $30,000 on the back of the lot the following winter. There was only 6 acres of clearcut because of aspen stands (and i measured them) and whatever area the road took and the harvest paths. The lot was not clear cut, it was marked with paint following a plan and I was on the lot 3 or 4 days a week watching things and keeping close tabs on wood flow. You can't hardly tell we were in there cutting. A lot of the harvest trails, well I'de have to say they disappeared because I can't even find some of them. We barely cut 20 % of the wood and the place isn't high graded. The lot is 85 acres. Then, the guy was worried about paying income taxes. :D ;D  8)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Cedarman

I am going to be blunt on this.  I think it is the landowners responsibility to get some education on managing their own lands.  I do think in almost all cases they should get a professional forester involved. If you are going to own land you should have a management plan for all of it. Even if it is to let mother nature run its course.  You need to know what the results of your actions or inactions are going to be.
There are woodland landowner associations in most states whose primary mission is to help its members manage their woodlands.  They are a wealth of information.  In Indiana there are night courses spread out in various sections of the state that really help the landowners get a good idea of the things they can do and the help available.

I am not talking getting a college degree, but getting enough education that gives a good bit of insight into what is going on in your woods and the different things that can be done to the woods and what changes they will cause in the future.

I just think this is part of the responsibility one has when they own land. If you are not willing to get involved it opens you even wider to getting ripped off when it comes to selling.  You will have a much better idea of what is a valuable tree and what is low grade.  Doesn't make you an expert, but you will have a lot better idea when someone is blowing smoke.

Once you gain an understanding of what is happening in your woodlot, the more comfortable you will feel about the decisions you make regarding what happens there.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

TexasTimbers

I can't offer any advice on whether or not mainiac should get a consultant, but I couldn't help but notice that practically everyone who participated in this thread, understands the proper use and spelling of the most oft misused words in our vocabulary.
The words too - to; then - than; and lose - loose; were used in their correct form in almost every instance. In fact, although I was merely reading the thread for an education without any intention whatsoever to respond, I didn't notice one person misuse any of these words!
Like I say, I wasn't looking for it but it's just that they usually jump off the page at me.
Forester types must be required to minor in English Composition as part of their curriculum.

The only advice I can give you mainiac is, if you have the chance to hire one of these guys do so. At least they have educated themselves on the basic use of their vocabulary.  8)
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Phorester


Good points CEDARMAN.  What I've been preaching for decades.  A lot of forest landowners think Forestry is letting trees grow until they're big enough to sell, then doing a "selective Havest", which is really a highgrade.  There's more to forest management than that.

Brian Beauchamp

There must have been a few more honest loggers making offers in the study he was quoting. My experience has been similar to yours, but I have also seen some very savvy landowners get a more than fair price for their timber, so I did not want to bias my statement with my limited experience. I agree, most professors are out-of-touch with practical application on many concepts, but the main point of what he was saying still rings true; the amount that a consultant brings in for a timberland owner exceeds, by far, the amount that the landowner could bring in on his or her own and more than compensates for the fees that they charge as a result. The additional services of overseeing the sale, explaining tax implications, etc. make it well-worth the investment.


Quote from: Phorester on January 14, 2007, 08:35:12 PM

Brian, I'd say your professor needs to get out more and talk to landowners.  I bet his assessment of what a landowner can get hiring a consulting forester versus not hiring one is way low.  I've probably said before on this site that landowners in my area routinely get 200% to 300% more for their timber hiring a consulting forester than if they sell it themselves.

SwampDonkey

I wish you could convince the average landowner around here. 99% of them think your out to take whatever profit they might otherwise make if you aren't involved.  ::) ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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