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Cryogenic Tempering

Started by Bendavid, January 04, 2007, 09:07:20 PM

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Bendavid

Has anyone on the forum explored the possibility of extending the life of rotary  and
band blades using Cryogenic Tempering? It is a process of deep freezing materials at
cryogenic temperatures (-300ºF). It has been proven to increase the strength and durability of the material being treated by up to 400%, doesn't cause brittleness and "the sharpness will not only last longer, but you will be able to sharpen more times with less removal of material. Each sharpening will demonstrate the benefits of the treatment". A number of companies provide the service.
For info google "cryogenic treatment"

Jeff

Many of the forum members that attended Sawlex last year set in on a Cryogenic seminar. The lady that owned the company signed on to be a member.  I think she may have lost interest in this group because the majority using bandsaws and there was not an economical advantage treating the bands that most of the group uses.  I thought Ron Wenrich was going to try to get a box of teeth treated but I dont know if he did. I imagine he'll let us know though. :D  I'll try to dig up the thread about this and that members info...
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Mr Mom

     I used to run a cnc  punch press and they were talking about some kind of tooling that was froze harden.
     The tooling is said to be harder but not that much. The price was alot more too.
     That is all that was said buy the company. They never bought any.



     Thanks Alot Mr Mom

SwampDonkey

Here's one thread from a while back from a college graduate I think

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7497.0

The search function seems to be under the weather.

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Percy

On a some what related note, I tryed cryogenic guitar strings a few years back. They were waay  expensive and the hoopla was much better than the actual strings. It might work for saw blades but the cryogenic guitar strings went dead just as fast as the regular ones. ;D
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Grawulf

Me too Percy. Now Elixers on the other hand  :)  Maybe we could treat blades with Nanoweb and they'd "sing" a little longer between sharpenings!

Ron Wenrich

I never tried the teeth.  We had used cryogenics on our chipper blades, and we didn't find much of a difference. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

jrokusek

I know i's common on some custom and high-end rifle barrels.  My neighbor had a stainless barrel done and the rifle shoots loke a champ.  $1500 rifles better shoot good......

I know of a meat company that cryogenic froze their knives before boning meat.  I don't know if they do that anymore though.

Jim

breederman

I don't know about freezing blades,  but I can tell ya not to drip too much liquid nitrogen on your boots. :'(
Together we got this !

Bendavid

If there are Forum members in the York PA area they might get a discount or a demonstration of the process (with the prospect of future business) from this  cryogenic company, website at http://www.fountainheadcryo.com/ Give them a call and report back to the forum.

Ron Wenrich

That's who we used.  I'm pretty sure we don't do it anymore.  I'll check with maintenance to make sure, but the last time the subject came up, they weren't impressed by the results.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Percy

Quote from: Grawulf on January 05, 2007, 11:07:51 AM
Me too Percy. Now Elixers on the other hand  :)  Maybe we could treat blades with Nanoweb and they'd "sing" a little longer between sharpenings!
Heya Grawulf.
Where dya  suppose a feller could pick up a pail of this "NANOWEB" stuff. Ifn it helps with the singin, she's the stuff I  bin lookin for ..YA :D
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Grawulf

Maybe we can get the guys at Menominee to work on it for us. Could be Peach is a musician at heart too............ :) smiley_guitarist

RSteiner

About 15 years ago I did some testing of this process for the company I worked for to see if it would extend the life of cutting tools.  Back then they were saying the cryogenic process could improve everything from golf balls to nylon stockings.  The company I was dealing with processed a loop of saw chain for me to test out.

Cryogenic processing of heat treated parts can in some cases improve the product.  The way it works is when a piece of carbon steel is heated to a certian temperature, this temperature varies with the carbon content of the steel, certian elements in the steel are dissolved forming austenite.  Getting the piece of steel to the proper temperature is critical to get a complete austenite transformation. 

The cooling or quenching process is also critical as this is when the austenite is transformed to martensite which is a very hard.  Some times the transformation from austenite to martensite is not 100% if the cooling or quenching process is too rapid.  This unchanged austenite over time will gradually continue to convert to martensite even though the steel is not being heated treated or cooled. 

Here is where cryogenic processing comes in.  By cryogenic processing a previously heat treated piece of steel the aging process is excellerated hastening the change of any residual austenite to martensite and thus making a harder piece.  However, if the heat treating process to begin with effectively transformed all the austenite to martensite the post cryogenic process will not have any effect. 

Any piece that is heat treated if at some point in it's life gets heated beyond a certian temperature and then cooled some of the original hardness will be lost.  Tempering takes some of the hardness out.  A very hard piece of steel will also be brittle.  Tempering trades some hardness for ductility.  Continued over heating of cutting tools removes hardness, a saw blade losses its edge faster.

Cryogenic treatment can help in some cases but not all. 

Randy
Randy

jpgreen

I've seen 50-50 pro and con opinions for Cryogenic treatment on gun barrels. Maybe slightly more found no improvement.
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

SwampDonkey

From what I've been reading, it's about like taking a placebo. If you totally believe in it, it seems work well. Otherwise, no improvement. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

I talked to the guy who did the cryo treatment.  He had one set of chipper knives done and several chipper anvils. 

The problem with the chipper knives is that we sent a piece of metal through the chipper right after they were put in.   >:(  So, it was hard to tell if they lasted any longer.  They guy who did the knife sharpening said that there is a difference.  They seemed harder.  This guy can give you a very detailed description of what happens during the cryo treatment, both theoretical and actual.  Very bright man.

As for the anvils, they have held up better than those without the treatment.  These take a pretty good beating over the course of a day.  They will get worn off and then they have to be turned.  Not a particularly hard job, but it is a pain.

I still might try some saw teeth.  I'm just skeptical on the sharpening part.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Lud

Boy , I've been so busy at the plant, I never get to look at the Forum and the ol' dial-up was so slow we finally took the bull by the tail and got the Roadrunner to get the speed.   So I hope to be back on a bit more.  Missed y'all.

Had a couple of metal specialty salesmen swing by and they spoke of their cryogenic hardening business.  They'd pick up a tank of liquid nitrogen thru AGA and were pedalling it for any big ,  lumpy parts that were taking a pounding in the foundry that wear out quick and are time-consuming to change.

They'd  take the parts  into a tent they'd set up claiming it was a secret,  proprietary process.  What a hoot!  Isn't business wonderful?

But they swore it was good for the right task so go ahead and gas your anvil if you wear a lot of them out! 8)
Simplicity mill, Ford 1957 Golden Jubilee 841 Powermaster, 40x60 bankbarn, left-handed

SwampDonkey

 :D :D :D Lud, Sounds about like those guys that go around with a pale of aluminum paint and touch up your steal roofing for $400. ;D My uncle got taken, I still laugh about it. He said he was gone within a half hour. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

We had a bunch of guys that used to come around and paint buildings, not the roof.  They only charged so much a gallon.  It sounded cheap, so they let them have at it.  They only used 35 gallons of paint.  So thick it turned to alligator hide.   :D  And they weren't too careful about not getting it on the windows. 

Its a good thing we had our garage doors open, or they would have used another 5 gallons. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

jpgreen


I finally found the definition:

(cry·o·gen·ic (kr? '?-j?n '?k)

"Cry"- is what you untilmately do after the bill arrives.

"O"- is when you wonder -Oh, what have I done.

"Genic"- is when you question and ask yourself... why am I this dumb? How is this possible?... It MUST be genetic.

:D
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

Gilman

I did testing on TIN coated carbide end mills.  There was about a 30% increase in tool life.  You could see the diffence in treated and untreated end mills with a microscope.  The treated end mills were tougher, I don't know about hardness.  When the TIN coating wore off the cutting edge of treated bits the TIN chips were about 1/2 the size as the uncoated bits.

These end mills were used in a special application were a T slot was being cut in a 10'-20' steel shaft.  It was worth treating these end mills for this application, but I wasn't able to justify treating all of the end mills in the plant.

I wouldn't imagine it would pay to treat a $20-30 bandsaw blade.

WM LT70, WM 40 Super, WM  '89 40HD
Cat throwing champion 1996, 1997, 1999. (retired)

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