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Question for you tree fallers

Started by Blue Duck, January 04, 2007, 07:49:57 AM

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Blue Duck

For those times when you have to be dead acurate in your falling I know some of you tie a rope up the trunk and pull the tree down as it's being cut.  my question is what kind of rope are you using ( size, break strength, etc.) and where did you get it.  I know Lowe's has that 100' roll of nylon floating rope that's not too pricey.  I wonder if it's enough though.
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scsmith42

A couple of sources would be Bailey's (sponsor link at left), or a rock climbing supply store such as REI or Patagonia.
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and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

beenthere

GRTco
Figure out what you are pulling with, and how much it can pull. Then get the rope (cable?) rated for that 'load'.

If its two or three people pulling, can use a lighter rope (been there, done that).  If the bumper hitch on a car, been there too. If a cable winch on a cable skidder, I wouldn't use a rope.  I've found it doesn't take much upper-tree pull to drag over a tree.  Getting up to 20-30 feet in a tree to tie the rope or chain the cable is probably the hairiest part. That's a lot of leverage up that high. All is based on how much back lean needs to be taken up to get the tree over 'dead center'.  Still use wedges. The pulling just opens the cut to slip in the wedge rather than pound it in, IMO.

You'll have to do the figuring on the specific answer to your question.  :)

Planning some 'leaning tree' cutting this coming Sat., for a friend. The trees are tall 18-24" white oaks that could hit his house if dropped wrong. Don't plan on that happening. Likely will rig some pulling rigging to assure the landing zone is the right one (i.e. no house)
south central Wisconsin
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Raphael

  I used a 150' or 200' half inch nylon rope for many years, I think the working load (WL) was ~1000 lbs.  It's adequet but not ideal, burst strength is usually 7 to 10+ times the WL, a large tree snubbing backward could produce a jerk force above the burst strength of this line so I used it doubled or fixed every chance I could.  I'd check the specs on that floating line closely.
  You may find the 100' isn't quite long enough in some circumstances, especially when using people for the pulling force.  When I have people pulling I often have the main rope fixed between the tree and an anchor and they pull 90°  to the main line with a side line.  This gives them a 2:1 advantage and gets them moving away from the line of fall.

  When I replaced the old rope I went right over the top and bought a ¾" woven bull line with an integrated eye from Wespur, they only had the eye option on their 200' rope so I've got a rope that's nearly unmanagable, doesn't fit continuous rope pullers but can lift many trees straight up without exceeding it's WL. 

  For general use what I'd recomend is a rope puller and bull line specifically designed to fit it, usually this is ½".  I suspect Bailey's has a combo deal as will any good arborist supply online (like Wespur).  If your get rope from a sport climbing store look twice at the WL vs. burst strength, ratings for rock climbing aren't the same as those for industrial use.
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Onthesauk

I bought a couple of hundred of feet of 5/8th inch dacron rope off ebay a year or two ago, cost me about $40 - $50 I think.  I use it for snaking logs out with the ATV but could probably be used for tying off on trees you are bringing down.  Believe it has a rating of around 6,000 pounds.
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mike_van

Also you should be aware that once you tie a knot in a rope, you've cut is breaking strength in half..... Eye splices don't do this, either in the Samson Braid or the common 3 strand [polydacron, whatever]   Knots tend to untie themselves in the slick yellow nylon rope.   
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pineywoods

I use a steel cable 200 ft long x 7/16 dia and tie the end to a good sized tractor with a winch.
This may sound like a bit of overkill, but there is a reason. Many of the trees I cut are dead pine. The hinge wood on such trees is frequently brittle and very un-predictable. I've had it snap off while the tree is till nearly vertical. I seldom use wedges, they put additional stress on the hinge wood.
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DWM II

One thing I learned is it cant be too big. If it is under-rated you take a chance of it breaking, that could put you in a bad situation if you are pulling with a winch trying to keep a tree off a home or other structure. The breaking action can put enough energy into the tree causing it to osscilate and you will lose all control of where it will land. :o
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Dale Hatfield

Quote from: Onthesauk on January 04, 2007, 03:22:13 PM
I bought a couple of hundred of feet of 5/8th inch dacron rope off ebay a year or two ago, cost me about $40 - $50 I think.  I use it for snaking logs out with the ATV but could probably be used for tying off on trees you are bringing down.  Believe it has a rating of around 6,000 pounds.
The 6,000 pounds is breaking streangth. Thats brand new out of the bag. That strength decreases with use and abuse ground in dirt as well as with  spilled gas  and other nasty  things like UV rays  .
The working load is usually 10% of breaking strength.
Knots do reduce strength. Hitches usually dont .
The old hank of manilla rope most have a hanging in the garage.  In most cases wont make a good lease for a weiner dog. That stuff lost half its strength  the first time it got wet  15 years ago.
I dont know of a box store that will sell the rope you are looking for. Cheak Bailey's climbing section. Get a Lowering Rope or Bull Rope. As big as you can .
The other thing is never climb with a bull rope. and never pull with a climbing line.
Just because its a big thick rope , Dont think that you cant break it. Just because it took it yesterday dont mean it will today(exceeding the safe working load or shock loading any rope will cause failure  now or later)
Their is alot of force  applied by truck/tractor.
A big help would  be to get a throw rope and 2 bags. The higher you get the rope in the tree the less pulling it will take.
Learn proper felling and  how to use wedges . that will keep a tree from setting back into a taught rope and snapping it or pinching a saw.
Dale

Game Of Logging trainer,  College instructor of logging/Tree Care
Chainsaw Carver

Blue Duck

I appreciate the input fellas.  I'm trying to get away from pushing them overwith the loader on the tractor.  I intended to tie off high and pull them with the tractor while cutting and driving wedges. 

This is the rope I was refering to at sLowe's

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=102467-258-MFP8100-20L&lpage=none 

It's cheap.  Works great for a lot of the things we do but I didn't know if I trusted it for a 24" oak next to someones house.
I don't know what your ambitions are in life..
but you ain't gonna get them done drinkin decafe coffee

DR_Buck

I wouldn't use that stuff on a bet to pull a tree.   The working weight is only around 600 lbs or so if I recall.   I use a lot of it around the farm and I've had it 'snap' apart with very little effort.   You're better off and much safer to buy the braided nylon.  I'd also not go less that 1/2 " diameter.   My personal preference is steel cable if you can get access to it.   I also recommend a good snatch block so you can pull from a direction other than the felling direction.   There are a lot of 'bent' pick-up trucks out there owned by guys that did otherwise.  ;D
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jgoodhart

We had a tree company clear the electrical line here and we had a few real big oaks that needed taken down  8) anyway the tree guys used a continues rope puller and 1/2" rope to upset all but 1 of the 7 trees. They hooked the rope up high in the tree and just cranked the puller and tilted the trees away from the lines. Another item they had of interest was a throw line, throw ball something like that they pitched up into the tree to pull in the 1/2" rope in it worked real slick and saved time not climbing the tree. I checked and all the stuff was avaible at Bailey's, throw line was like 20 and the puller was 50 couple and the rope depends on the lenth. The tree guys like the anchor point for the puller to be as far away from the tree be cut as possible so the rope angle wasn't real steep.

All these oaks were having heath issues and a 2 had just died last summer and all but one had a bad lean towards the power line and was I ever itching to cut them down for the lumber but didn't want to pay for electrical repairs when trees didn't go my way. Sure was glad when the power company agreed they should be cut 8) 8) ;D

tcsmpsi

The rope best suited for tree work, in my opinion, is double braided polyester.  Braided inner core for strength, and braided outer core for wear resistance.  It has minimal stretch, knots and eyes well.

For pulling trees, I use 3/4" that has 13,000 lb tensile strength. 

On the retail end, Bailey's sells good rope at good prices, suited for tree work. 

I wouldn't fiddle around with 'box store' rope.  Especially not in as dangerous an endeavor as is felling/trimming trees.

I get it in 600' spools, so my 'source' might not quite be the ticket for you.   ;)
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

logwalker

That is very scary rope. Use it for tying your garbage cans in the back of your truck. My$.02

Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

PB Logging

Here I go again...

Rigging, rope, string, thread, wire-rope, cable these are not things to be taken into consideration ligthly when one gets involved with trees. Screwing up with regards to this subject is a good way to get you or someone near and dear to you killed... 

To prove this point let me share a condensed version of an event that happend just today.  A tree removal crew that works under me had a miscommunication that resulted in a piece of log (~600#'s) being lowered into the electrical service drop of a single family residence.  The ground wire was pulled on the Tri-plex, sending a 220 volt surge into the residence.  Oops, while this could have been sooooooooooo much worse the fact remains that this family will now be the pround owners of new pieces of virtually every electronic gadget that was plugged in inside their home.  Refrigerator, furnace motor, chest freezer, computer, microwave, clocks, etc.  No one was injured, there was no fire but I'm seeing lots of $$$$ moving in the wrong direction.



A few things that contributed to todays event were the Friday afternoon hurry-ups, inexperience and miss communication.  The relevance of this event to this discussion thread is the rope.

There are many good and many not so good books on knots/hitches, etc.  There is a great deal to know about ropes and the specific industry which they are meant to be used in. 

There are a number of resources to purchase arborist ropes.  To the best of my knowlege Lowes, Home Depot and the like are not suppliers of quality arborist ropes.  Baileys and many other similar purveyors of aroborist ropes are out there.  I've no experience with Bailey's but there is no question in my mind that if you were to call them they would be able to help you properly select a rope suitable for your application.  Also, I bet that they can help you with knot/hitch/rigging books too.

I've spent time not only in the tree tops with rope but also have a solid back ground as a climber of rock both class 5 and 6 work.  As well as rescue/recovery work.  ropes are either for climbing or for rigging - under no circumstances is a rope to be cross utilized!

Standard equipment for a tree removal crew of ours (permantely stored on a bucket truck for its as-needed use) includudes but is not limited to:

1 ea 150' slick line w/ 8 oz throw weight and "big shot" sling shot
2 ea x 150' 1/2" arborplex climbing rope
2 ea x 150' 5/8" 3 strand bull rope
1 ea x 150' 3/4" 12 strand bull rope
1 ea  3/4" whoppie sling
1 ea 16' 3/4" tenex eye sling
2 ea x 20' 7/16" log chain

shop stored but avaialbe as needed:
more of the above
2 ea 1"  bullrope 200'
slings, etc for heavy lifting 2nd to crane removal work


Additionally, the guys have persoanl gear (saddle, hooks, etc) and the truck has hardward (pulley's, lowering device, lifting device, chain saws, hand saws, pole saws, wedges, sledges, axes, kant hook, pruners/lopers, ladder, etc). 

Getting away with something is a terrible teacher...

Make it a safe day!


Don_Papenburg

Hey PB , where in central Illinois are you located?  I am just  east of
Streator
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

PB Logging

Litchfield area, hour north of STL and about an hour South of Springfield.

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