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Need advice on Propane

Started by Furby, January 03, 2007, 09:53:54 PM

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Furby

Before I get to my questions, let me tell you the situation.
The place up at the lake used to be fed by a pair of 100 pound or so bottles.
Only things that take propane are the stove/oven and the furnace.
We have not used the furnace in several years and don't really plan to at this point so the stove is really our main concern.

Couple years ago it was decided to install a local gas distribution line that would supply propane to the local area, but be able to deliver natural gas if it was ever extened to the area.
After some though, we hooked up to the new line.
The 100 pound bottles were returned.
Soon after installation, the company sold out and the use agreement changed with the new company.
We are no longer interested in being screwed by the new company and I'd like to disconnect from them.

We have yet to roll off the 0000 mark on the gas meter in close to 3 years, so we really use very little.

My question is wether anyone knows if I could easily hook up a standard gas grill or travel trailer tank to the line rather then mess with trying to get 100 pound bottles again, as no one really handles them anymore in that area.
I really don't see a problem hooking up the small tank and I can easily get them refilled a few miles away.
I assume the stove would work fine as the ones in RV's just keep getting bigger.
Anyone know if we would have trouble using the furnace if we decided to fire it up?
Will a standard regulator off a RV work?

isawlogs

 Alls I can tell you is the stove will work fine with the gas grill tank and regulator ... As that is what I have at my hunting camp. I dont see why the furnace would not work , but then again never tried one , other then the units in a camper .
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Stump Jumper

Jeff
May God Bless.
WM LT 40 SuperHDD42 HP Kubota walk & ride, WM Edger, JD Skidsteer 250, Farmi winch, Bri-Mar Dump Box Trailer, Black Powder

Bill in U.P.

I use a 20# tank with grill regulator for a full size stove top and full size gas clothes drier with no problem.

Stump Jumper

if you use up propane out of a 20lb too fast the tank will bigin to frost the colder the tank gets the less gas the tank will give up. ganging tanks together willhelp out
Jeff
May God Bless.
WM LT 40 SuperHDD42 HP Kubota walk & ride, WM Edger, JD Skidsteer 250, Farmi winch, Bri-Mar Dump Box Trailer, Black Powder

Furby

Mobile home furnace, don't know the size.

farmerdoug

Furby,

A regulator from an RV with a stove and furnace should be fine.  There should be a regulator somewhere on the current line you have.  Just disconnect that one and connect the RV one.  If you can get an dual tank RV system that would be better as you can have a spare ready to use while you refill the empty.  Just remember to refill the empty before the other one gets empty.   ::)

You may even be able to use the regulate that is already on your line also if the tank hose will connect to it that is.

As far as tanks I take old ones to Wallyworld and exchange them for updated tanks for just the cost of the refill.  I know they are more exspensive than other but I get a new OPD tank for free then you can fill it wherever you want.  The tank has to be in good shape though(ie.  Not rusted up, dented, etc' a little white paint does good here).  The other places charge you for a new tank.

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

Furby

Yeah, I have a real old tank I had considered trading in for an updated one as it's not worth updating it.
The regulator that is there now is hooked to the gas meter and I'd rather not mess with their meter.
I can easily disconnect the line right there and tie in the tank.
Might have a second tank someplace, would have to go look.

farmerdoug

Furby,  Actually you can hook up the new regulator anywheres after the old regulator just not before. ;)

Just watch for tanks that people throw out with the trash.  The trash guys will not pick them up either.  I find them quite often.  I must have 10-15 of them around here on the farm. ::)

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

Bill

Not sure about this but I seem to have a recollection about the orifices - the jets to the burners being different between propane and natural gas. Maybe with an RV regulator that solves that issue ? ? ?

Hope others that know more will jump in here . . .


Good Luck

Furby

The furnace has been on propane for the last 24 years at least.
The stove was changed to propane when we moved it up there many years ago so there is no problem there.

Gary_C

I am living in a 32 ft travel trailer where I am logging and have two 30 lb propane cylinders. I was also there last winter and using the propane for just the furnace, I was using one cylinder per week with one electric heater running in the bedroom. The only problem I had was one night that it was 19 below zero at 11 PM when I went to bed. Good thing I had an electric blanket as the propane had stopped vaporizing in the night and it was only 40 deg in the trailer by morning.

The last three weeks, I have been running on one 20 lb cylinder and it was still about half full when I brought it home to refill it. You should have no problems with an RV regulator and that two tank switchover valve.

The only disadvantage with those portable tanks is the propane is much more costly when you have them filled. I have a 500 gal propane tank so I can bleed fill my own portable tanks.

Most propane suppliers now have those vertical tanks that hold about 150-200 gallons and they will come out and fill them at a lot less cost than filling portable tanks. However if your usage is that low, you may not need anything larger.

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Furby

Let me put it this way, if we use one tank a year we will still be spending less then we are giving to the ripoff artists now!
I REALLY don't think we will even use one tank a year.

However, I've got a new angle to ask about.
Anyone know about using a 30-40 gallon propane waterheater on a pair of small tanks?
Any thoughts.
It would only be used for a few days at a time maybe 4-6 times a year.

Rockn H

Furby, we use both 20lb and 100 lb bottles at our camp for the stove and water heater and I know others that use it for this, plus a gas heater.  We only light the water heater when we're going to be using it, but for the most part it is just a pilot light.  Unless you're using it a lot or have a really poorly insulated water heater.
Say we move in Fri. night and don't use the gas lights.  Then Sat we cook on the stove twice.  Wash dishes twice Sat and three people take a shower.  Then Sun morning cook again and wash dishes.  Just using the stove and water heater for the weekend, one 20lb bottle will do.  If it's cool and we run the gas lights we'll dip into the 2nd bottle.
From my experience here with our trailer, a 20lb bottle will run an infared heater with one brick going for app. 4 days-96hr's. ::)
I carry the 20s down to the camp alot, but if we're going to be there awhile I'll take the 100lb as well.  I know you mentioned them earlier, but thought I would throw in that Lowe's here sells them for around $75.  Mine were old ones that were too old to refill so the local propane rip-off'ers replaced the valves and recertified them for $15.  The 100lb bottles don't have to have the new style valves here.  I don't know about your state laws, but here this little bit of info helped me scarf up another 100lb bottle.

Gary_C

It would somewhat depend on the ambient temp where the bottle is located. If it is too cold, it may frost up and then the water heater burner would go out. If it does get starved for propane, you could tee in two bottles to feed at the same time and get twice the evaporation rate.

That is an advantage to having 100 lb cylinders, they have higher evaporation rates.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Furby

I would consider going back to the 100 lb bottles, but it sounded like it was going to be pretty hard to get them as they were being phased out last time we checked into them.
Might have make some calls up there.

We only need the propane in the summer, so that is a plus.

Rockn H

Just checked lowes online.  A 100lb bottle is $79 now.

Furby


scsmith42

Furby, the main thing that I would be concerned about is the vaporization rate of the bottles.  If you operate multiple propane appliances simultaneously, you could have a problem.

If it were me, I'd either gang up multiple 20 pounders, or have a 100 lb bottle with a 20 as a backup.  The larger bottle would be my first choice.

Tractor Supply used to sell the larger bottles.

If you ever have to replace your water heater, check out the tankless propane ones.  Very efficient - you only use the gas to heat the actual water you use - not in keeping a tank warm.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

johnjbc

I took the regulator from an old gas gill and clamped the hose over the end of the gas line to the stove, in the old house trailer we use for a camp. The first 20 lb tank lasted 3 years.
The water heater is electric and the furnace is oil so I can't help with gas usage there.
We did use one of the infrared heaters on a 20 lb bottle, when the generator wasn't running (10:00PM to 5:30 AM) and a 20 lb tank lasted 4 days

I have a peeve with the exchange tanks here. I was in a hurry the first year and exchanged 2 tanks with new valves. When they needed filled again my normal refill station couldn't fill  >:(them so now I have to exchange them for twice as much. I tried 3 other refill places and no one can fill them. Has anyone seen or solved this problem? 

The Federal Law that made them all be replaced with the triangle valve doesn't apply to cylinders over 30 lb. So in the long run you will save on testing by using 100 lb tanks.
LT40HDG24, Case VAC, Kubota L48, Case 580B, Cat 977H, Bobcat 773

Don_Papenburg

Tell them that it is for your soldering torch, you would never use a little bottle like that  otherwise.  I think that if it is for  a grill ,RV or other household consummer use it needs the OPValve . If you use it for industral it can have the old valve.
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

SPIKER

You may also be able to get one of the fork truck propane tanks too.   they are 62 lbers, but seem to have  a high off-gas rate, they have two outputs, one gas one liquid.   We fill them at our plant, 9sometimes a gas grill 20 lb tank gets in there to be refilled too if no-one is looking  ;D.   as far as the furnace, you need to find out the BTU output of it.  that will tell you if you can gas-off enough with a 20 lb tank for it to run for a while...   I do know freeze up would possible be a problem if it gets too much out too fast. or if outside temps are too low.   If it freezes up you can warm the tank using hot water bath in a feed bucket to help the tank gas-off faster....

markM
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

Rockn H

johnjbc, when the law changed and I had to upgrade my 20lb bottles, I ran into the problem of not being able to get them refilled.  I don't remember the site, but basically the companies went with a valve that has a spring loaded check valve in it.  When they refill it they use a magnetic key to open the valve so it will take gas.  When you swap bottles next time look for one with a valve that DOESN'Thave a triangular indentation on the side under the knob.  The triangle is where the magnet goes.  You may have to try a few different companies before you find one in your area that doesn't use the magnetic check valves.  Blue Rino seems to be the only one here that still uses them some.

johnjbc

Rockn H
Thanks for the info on the tanks. The ones I had a problem with were Blue Rino and they do have the triangle in the side of the tank. I will try to pick out valves without the triangle next time if they will let me.
That failing do you know if any magnet will work or is it possible to buy the key anywhere?
   
Gary_C
    Quote  -    I have a 500 gal propane tank so I can bleed fill my own portable tanks

Can you give me a little info on how you do this. How do you get the liquid gas to move without a pump?
LT40HDG24, Case VAC, Kubota L48, Case 580B, Cat 977H, Bobcat 773

Gary_C

johnbc

I have a hose off the liquid line with that large propane female fitting, the one with the coarse threads. I also have an adapter that reduces it to the male fitting that still screws into the tank valves.

To fill a tank it is best if the tank is completely empty. Then you just connect the tank to be filled and open the valves. As the pressure equalizes it is pushing liquid into the small tank. When you hear the flow stop, that is all you can get in the tank. It will not be full.

Some tanks do have a screwdriver slot or knob on the side of the valve that actually has a small tube that goes down inside the tank to the 80% fill point. On those tanks, it doesn't matter if the tank is empty, you can open that side valve and vent vapor pressure until it starts spitting liquid and you are 80% full which is the maximum allowed. I have kept tanks with those valves so I can easily fill them full.

The reason for the change over to the new OPD valves is to prevent someone that does not know what they are doing from overfilling a tank above the 80 % level, someone like a clerk in a convenience store. However those new valves and there have been at least two changes, make it very difficult to "bleed fill" as it takes forever. I think there is some kind of float inside that slows down the flow. All the filling stations use pumps to force the liquid into the tank and steal back vapors to prevent overpressurizing the tank.

Please do not attempt this unless you understand exactly what you are doing. When you overfill, you will draw liquid out of the vapor valves, and you will cause a fire in any appliance or heater connected to the tank. My son once accidentially "filled" a tank that I had already filled and he filled it completly. Almost burned the barn down.  ::)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Furby

Well I picked up a big tank, got a deal on a used one.
Now I need a regulator.
Most of the box stores carry ones for grills and other things.
They have a .5 PSI rating.
I assume I need something bigger, don't I?

WH_Conley

Furby, I think the PSI is ok, it's the volume. I use one from a gas grill at the camp, cook stove and ventless wall mount heater. Fix breakfast with the heater, oven and skillets on the burner no problem.
Bill

scsmith42

Furby, I am far from being an expert in this area, but from my experience depending upon the amount of gas flow that you need, you will need two regulators - a high pressure and a low pressure.  In permanent installations at homes, etc, typically a high pressure regulator is installed at the tank, and a low pressure regulator is installed at the building or appliance (if only using one appliance).

I think (but am not positive) that the low-volume regulators used on gas grills, etc, combine both high and low functions into a single unit.  The high-volume regulators used on whole-house systems have separate regulators in different locations.

Typically a plumbing supply company (or propane supplier) will have the regulators or can tell you where to obtain them.

When I first installed my backup propane generator, I picked up a used 125 gallon propane tank that included a high pressure regulator.  The generator worked fine for a few months, and then wouldn't run correctly.  Spoke with a friend of mine at a generator servicing company, and he explained that the problem was due to fluctuating gas pressures, and that to fix it I needed a low pressure regulator near the generator in addition to the high-pressure regulator at the tank.  This was in addition to the flow regulating valve that was included with the generator.  Apparantly both regulators are needed due to the volume of gas being consumed by the generator (or a house full of propane appliances).

High-pressure regulators typically have a very small diameter tube that connects them to the tank - usually about 1/4" o.d. or so, and then a larger output such as 3/4" pipe thread.  Low-pressure regulators usually have 3/4" or so pipe thread on both inlet and outlets.  From what I've seen, the high pressure regulators are usually smaller than the low-pressure regulators - most of the high pressure ones that I've seen are around 3" in diameter, and the low pressure ones are around 6" - 8" in diameter.

Your water heater may draw enough gas volume to require a dual regulator system.

Scott

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Gary_C

What you need is one of those dual tank, automatic change over valves and regulators. It's the same one that is used on all campers and mobile homes. Any propane supplier will have them as they are a common item.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Rockn H

I just wanted to throw in, that if any of y'all fill your own 20lb tanks off of your home tank, please wear saftey glasses.  When your filling the tank you can get a little liquid propane out of the vent valve or even the hoses when your disconnecting.  This stuff is cold and like your momma always warned you.... you could put an eye out. ;D

Furby when I was working on our trailer I tried running the infared heater off of a grills regulator and no luck at all.  Like was mentioned earlier the grill reg was low pressure and the infared already had a low pressure reg where the line hooked up.  I was told that I could have deleted (chunked) the reg on the infared and all would have been well, but I had a high pressure regulator off of an old camper. 
I'm no expert on the subject so someone else may be able to say this better, but here goes.  From what I have been told, if you use a grill regulator like I said you'll have to remove the reg off of the appliance ,it's usually what you connect the supply line to.  The problem comes in when you try to run more than one thing at a time off of the same low pressure reg.  You won't get enough flow.
Oh yeah, if ya see a camper of any kind at the junk yard stop and ask. ;)

fuzzybear

   All I use is propane up here. Stove and fridge on demand hot water heater. I use 100lb tanks. I do run two tanks at once with a juction valve. I have the choice of witch tank is primary that way I can run off of just 1 tank if nessasary. The stove and fridge as well as the furnace should have their own regulator on them. Check each appliance where the line conects, they should have a regulator.
   I ALWAYS keep a 20lb tank as a spare incase I run out.  I live on an Island in the middle of the river and it is a long trip to town when you have to lug 100lb tanks. 
   In Michigan if I remember corectly it does get pretty cold.  Here it gets extremely cold -50c. The only thing I do to keep the tanks from freezing is to wrap them with an old sleeping bag. I have never had one freeze up that way, even when it reached -65c.
   *note* all propane regulators are preset at the same psi. It's an industry standard.  A regulator from a bbq and a propane furnace are no different(just there shape and design same psi)  Natural Gas regulators run on high pressure and then are reduced by the regulator at each apliance.  You can buy adjustable regulators but the only time I use them is on my propane fired forge. 
I never met a tree I didn't like!!

Rockn H

fuzzybear, are you not running any kind of regulator coming off of your bottles?  Just the regulators on the appliances themselves? ???   The high pressure reg at the bottles are to step the pressure down from say 250lbs, when the tanks are full, to the 30lbs that's supplied to the house. Then each appliance has there own low pressure reg that steps it down even more. 

Redneck pressure test.
When getting a new tank hooked up the propane company has to check that your propane system, starting at the tank, can hold 30lbs of pressure for 30 minutes.  If your not getting your propane delivered because youre at a camp on a river in SE AR and you want to make sure there are no leaks, here's what you can do.
Go to your parts store and purchase a steel valve stem, it will be threaded.  Next buy a bushing to adapt your valve stem to your supply line.  Put 30lbs of AIR pressure in the line and wait 30 minutes.  Then check it with you tire pressure gauge.  If you've still got 30lbs you're good to go and hopefully won't blow up. 8)

fuzzybear

Sorry forgot to clarify. The Regulator is built into the switching valve for running 1 or 2 tanks.  Thank's for bringing it to my attention.  It's late and been a long day ::)  It's the kind that also has a little pop up valve when the tank pressure drops to let you know it's almost empty.
I never met a tree I didn't like!!

Rockn H

I wish mine had a pop-up valve.  I've got a gauge off of a cutting torch reg that I'm thinking of T-ing inline.  Right now I'm having to sort of weight our 100lb bottles to see if they're getting empty.  My wife says I look like an arthritic bear trying to give the bottle a hug.  ;D If I can move it, it's either getting empty or I should try and remember what I ate so I can have it again.  ;)

rebocardo

If you do not use the furn. and only use the gas stove sometimes, why not go with a wood stove in the cabin? A $500 wood stove with a glass door will blast the heat, plus, you can cook on it (maybe not a turkey).

Or even one of those old stoves with a grill and burners?

Furby

It's an old mobile home, no room for a stove and if I could afford a $500 wood stove, I'd rather just keep paying the gas fee we have now as the stove wouldn't be worth the effort for the time we use it.


Need to change gears a bit.
I have a perfectly good natural gas fired water heater. Nothing wrong with it, just replaced it with a powervent model. I'd like to use that on propane rather then then spend the $350 on a new propane model.
I've pulled the guts off water heaters before, and still have some, but they are all N. gas.
Can I find an old propane water heater that has been junked and swap the guts?

Minnesota_boy

I haven't done a water heater but the usual way to change from natural gas to propane is to replace the orifice and adjust the air mixture.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Furby

That was mentioned to me yesterday, but I've never seen a kit or anything to do that for water heaters.
There is a real big price difference at the store when you look at propane vs. N. gas, so I figure there's more to it?

PineNut

I have changed a couple of appliances from natural gas to propane. The only part changed was the orifice. Some appliances will supply both orifices and instructions on changing them. This is especially true in mobile home furnaces. The price difference is what ever the market will bear. 

Furby

Any idea how to do it?
I've changed furnaces before, but the directions were stamped right on them and they didn't look anything like the water heater control.
Looks like it would take me 10-15 minutes to swap out the guts, any chance anyone might have a propane water heater control laying around?

beenthere

I've got one "laying around" in the bottom of the water heater.  ;D  I expect you are looking for a spare one laying around, unless you just wanna know something about the one I'm using.  Which?  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Furby

Yeah, I was thinking spare. :D
With out opening it up there is no way to compare them.
I might just open up one that I salvaged before just to see what's what though.

Gary_C

I am not sure why, but I think that hot water heaters cannot be converted from natural gas to propane. As others have said, it's usually just an orifice, but if I remember right, there is a substantial difference in price on the hot water heaters and they do sell both kinds, where most appliances, there is one model for both. ???

Call some local propane supplier and ask if they can be converted.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Raider Bill

I just installed a propane fireplace insert. I was going to use a 20 lb tank and BBQ reg but was told that it would not have the proper pres. When I went to the supply house they said that normal house presure off the reg is 10lbs, bbq's are 4lb.
My friend tried to use  bbq tank and reg for his stove but found that it did not supply enough gas to properly run 3 burners at the same time or the oven at proper temp. After I told him what I had learned he bought a house reg and all is well.
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

thurlow

Not sure this is germane to the issue.........my propane distributor sells adjustable regulators, aboout $15 each.  I use 'em on my fish cookers;  between one and four cookers off the same bottle.  Need to light another burner/cooker, just screw the regulator down (more pressure/volume) a little.  Use either a twenty lb. or 100 lb. bottle, depending on where/how much fish/set up, etc.  These are home-made burners;  the biggest I could find were those 170,000 btu available with turkey fryers/fish cookers.  I would guess mine put out 3-400,000 btu...........just guessing.  :)
Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

Gary_C

Truth be told, you do not even need a regulator on propane. Those big propane torches have just a needle valve to regulate the flame and even the small propane torches that run off small bottles have just a needle valve, no regulator. All the regulator does is give a constant flame regardless of how much the tank pressure varies. That is important on a stove or other appliance so the heat stays the same without constant adjustment. The smaller propane fired units, like gas grills need lower pressures so the control is not so sensitive. And the lower pressure regulators will not supply enough gas for the larger burners.

A propane fired engine, like on a generator or forklift truck draws liquid propane from the tank and then has a hot water vaporizer to supply enough gas.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

thurlow

Saw this on e-bay and was reminded of this thread; it's a translucent/fiberglass see-through propane bottle.  You can actually see how much fuel is in the tank.




Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

Furby

Just thought I'd update this.........
After lots of thought on this, we decided to go ahead and hook up a bottle and disconnect from the gas company.
Day after we decided to disconnect, but before we called, we got an updated price list for services in the mail.
They wanted $80 to disconnect us and they didn't even know we were thinking about doing it. >:(
Well, after a lot of phone calls and dealing with the number three guy at the company who based on dealing with him, was a total idiot... we got away with disconnecting for half price. ::)
I cleaned up and painted the 100 pound tank I had, and had it checked and filled.
Bought a two stage regulator from the RV dealer near me and hooked everything up after a couple trips to the store.
Used it Memorial day weekend and things are good. :)
May even give the furnace a try this fall.
At this point I have waaaaaaay more $ invested in the bottle then if we had kept the gas company, but................. I'M FREE! 8)
I really think we may get 5+ years out of the bottle anyways, unless something changes, so it'll work out in the end.

Thanks for all the help folks! 8)

sawmilllawyer

 :D, Good for you. Glad you got mostly free of the utility money mongers. You may have more invested now but over the long haul you are going to be $$$$ ahead. I did this with a wood buring fireplace insert stove. What a difference in my winter utility bills and the heat from the stove is more pleasant to my bones.
Stihl MS-361, MS-460 mag, Poulan 2150, 2375 Wildthing.

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