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Mill died, suggestions????

Started by brdmkr, December 29, 2006, 09:45:05 PM

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brdmkr

Today was 'one of those days'  :(.  I hit tramp metal >:( and lost the tips on 4 of th 5 teeth >:(.  I changed out the blade and then the saw started running really badly :( :(.  It would run smooth for a second or 2 and then it would really start shaking and sputtering.  When I put a load on the blade (even with shallow cuts), it would really shake, bog down, and often backfire.  Finally, I decided that the shaking was so bad that I was actually having too wide of a kerf.  Ultimately, I let it run for a while with no load on the blade to see if it would straighten itself out.  It started running rougher, backfired, and quit  :o.  It will not crank now smiley_crying.  When I try to start it, it will attempt to run for a second or two, but it never actually runs.   It sounds strange trying to start.  It has a 'hollow' sound ???.

As luck would have it, I had squared off a log and was about to start on a row of vertical cuts, when I had to stop >:(.  Thus, if I have to take the carriage to a small engine mechanic, I'll have to spend a good bit of time getting things back right before I can finish.

About all I feel comfortable doing is changing filters, changing fluids, and cleaning things (basic maintenance).  Is there something simple I am overlooking.  The mill is a Lucas 618.  The engine is an 18 hp Briggs Vanguard and I only have about 80 hours on the mill.  Any suggestions?
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

scsmith42

Pull the spark plug and clean it.  You may have fouled it out when the blade stalled in the metal.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Minnesota_boy

Check your fuel tank for water.  Check the fuel filter too.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Faron

Maybe sheared a key somewhere and it's out of time??
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

farmerdoug

If cleaning the spark plug does not cure it then it may be the key between the flywheel and the shaft.  B&S engines have given me the fits sometimes until I discoveried the key is usaully made of aluminum and shears real easy to protect the engine when the shaft stalls and the energy in the flywheel does not.  You have to pull the flywheel to check and the key cannot be even a little deformed or it will mess up the timing.

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

brdmkr

Actually, the metal did not stall the engine.  I just got the "chink' sound and knew that I had a problem.

Still, it seems weird that the poor running occurred after the metal.  Also, it didn't start out really bad, it got worse with time.  I plan on pulling the tank and cleaning the fuel filter tomorrow. 

I'll clean the plug as well.

Anything else??
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

oakiemac

I'd check to make sure you are getting a good spark and not a weak spark. you probably have an electronic ignition module-maybe that is going bad. The only other thing to cause this would be lack of fuel or bad fuel.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

scsmith42

Ditto the other comments - your problem sounds either ignition or fuel related.  In particular, I think that Farmerdoug may be onto something with the potential of a sheared key. 

Also check the vent on the fuel tank - probably a long shot though.  Also visually inspect the fuel lines to make sure that none are pinched.  Check the air filter to make sure it's not clogged with sawdust. 
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

brdmkr

If the key is sheared, that will definately require a trip to the shop.  Could this have happened even if the blade did not stall? 

I reread farmerdougs comments.  I suppose that a key deformation could have certainly happended.   Would this result in the engine just loosing time and coming to a complete halt or would it be possible for the enigne to continue running for a while before dying? 

Is there a way I could test for this without tearing into the engine?  I suppose I can eliminate everything else first and then take it in if it still doesn't work.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

DanG

Mike, I spent 34 years shooting trouble for the phone company.  In all that time, I learned one basic truism that applies to all problems;  ALWAYS check the easy/cheap possibilities first!  Are the plug wires seated properly?  At both ends?.  Clean or replace the spark plugs.  Blow out the fuel lines and replace filters.  Is your air cleaner clogged up? Is the gas fresh?  Replace it anyway.

Follow this line of thinking, and you'll probably get it going all by yourself.  Then pound yourself on the chest for about 3 seconds and get back to work!
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

brdmkr

DanG, I hope you are right.  I didn't have much time to mess with it today.  I'll do everything I feel comfortable doing tomorrow.  If that doesn't work, I have located several sservice centers that do warranty work.  I suppose I can just start putting up shingles if it needs shop work.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

woodbowl

Quoteit seems weird that the poor running occurred after the metal.


QuoteYou have to pull the flywheel to check and the key cannot be even a little deformed or it will mess up the timing.

I've taken a key out, looked at it, said it was OK and put it back in, only to take it out again to take a second look. It barely had a nick on the side, but was enough to cause the problem. It's made to sheer, just in case a binding situation happens. Running over a root with the lawn mower does the same thing. It's a cheap fix. May want to keep some spare keys for the future.   ;D
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

woodmills1

check the easy but the chink sounds bad.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

DWM II

I like checking the easy stuff first as well, but the key shear is highly possible. Just consider the amount of tork generated by the circle blade, any sudden slow down has to put that energy somewhere else and the key is defenitly made to shear. If it didnt you would have a worse problem like a bent crank shaft :o. Good luck and I hope it works out the cheapest way possible.

Stewardship Counts!

farmerdoug

All it takes is just a little cut in the key to screw up the timing.  If the key is cut the spark will be off or no spark at all.  I keep extra keys just for that purpose.  Just backfiring has cut a key for me.  If it was not for the key the energy stored in the flywheel would torque the heck out of something else.  Keys are cheaper than cranks and such.

I would check the easier stuff first as I would feel like an idiot taking an engine in to find out that the fuel filter was plugged.  Also a sheared key may not be an warranty item as it is not you company's fault you caused it to shear.

It the engine a vertical shaft or horizontal shaft?  Replacing the key is easir as all you have to do is remove the cover and pull the mag flywheel.  A slide hammer is very useful too.

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

saddletramp

Howdy Brdmkr. It just so happens we had the same problem last weekend with our Lucas 827. Drain the fuel tank and change the fuel filter and you will be runnin like new in a couple of minutes! There was water in the fuel from condensation in the tank. Be sure to completly drain the tank. We change the fuel filter every oil change and from now on when we run out of gas ::) of get low we will drain the tank as a preventive measure. Best of luck and happy millin. Steve
Horses dont git broke.Cowboys do.

Fla._Deadheader


Bout a month ago, I had the same problem with my Honda. Sounds like water in the carb. Should be a small screw-bolt in the bottom of the carb. Take it out along with draining all the lines, filter and tank. Gotta have gas, as, it isn't near as good as when we were younger. Doesn't take much for it to not burn  ::)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Tom

I remember, one time, discovering that a glass float bowl solved water problems and made my fuel filters last longer too.  Some of the old fixes still work. :)

jpgreen

Drain the fuel system and install one of these:

http://www2.northerntool.com/product/910811_910811.htm

That's what I would do in your climate and be done with that problem..  :)
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

brdmkr

I went over today to clean everything out dealing with the fuel system.  I thought I would see if it would crank and it fired right up!  Ran smooth as silk.  I finished the log I had bunked and called it a day.  I plan on replacing the fuel filter, draining the gas, checking fuel lines, etc. before I start on a new log.  I figure that there may be water or trash in the gas.

Thanks for all the suggestions.  It is good to know about the key as well as I could see that as being a problem in the future.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Trent

Carl Childers from Slingblade: "It ain't got no gas"
Can't fish, can't hunt, don't care about sports. Love to build, machine, fabricate.      Trent Williams

brdmkr

I wish it were that simple.  She was full.  I do think that the gas or gas supply may be an issue.

Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

breederman

 sounds like it may have some dirt or sawdust it the fuel system some where and after it set awhile it floated out of the way. Probably in the tank.
Together we got this !

ladylake

If it starts to act up again it might be the coil. When they are shot the motor will run good untill it gets hot then start missing and backfiring.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

brdmkr

Thanks Steve,

That is something else I'll keep an eye open for. 

Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

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