iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Anti seize on lug nuts ?? Got a bad scare. Got lucky.

Started by chainsaw_louie, December 19, 2006, 03:49:48 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

chainsaw_louie

Hi ,

Somewhere I read about using antiseize on lug nuts - well no more for me.  Last night, I was driving home from Montreal and a noise from the rear end of the car started.  It was a very slight tap tap tap.  I thought it was either a U-joint or a tire that developed a bubble.  I slowed down to 55, put both hands on the steering wheel and moved to the right lane of the inter state highway.   All of a sudden "bang bang wobble " the car swervs a bit but I am able to bring it to a stop off on the shoulder.  I expected to see a shredded blown out tire - I was really surprised to see NO tire or Wheel at all!!  It seems that the lug nuts must have worked loose and the wheel came off.  It was dark but we found the mostly undamaged wheel and tire about 100' ahead of the car in the weeds.  *DanG, that is living too close to the edge for me. 

So, the lessons for me are  this:#1 I should have gotten out and checked out the noise.  The fact that I was tired and been driving 550 miles already and up since 5am played a part in it but I kick myself for thinking that it would not be anything serious or it could wait another 150 miles till I get home. #2 Although that antisieze helps the lug nuts go on and off smoother, its got an obvious downside. I almost paid a dear price to learn that lesson.

Tim

Tom

Tim,
It has always been recommended to me that one should not use any lubricant to aid in assembly of a lugnut onto a lug.  That incluldes grease, oil and the highly volatile liquids designed for breaking loose corroded fasteners.

I guess your experience is the reason.

I once lost the tire and rim off of my LT40.  It wasn't due to assembly.  I think someone tried to steal my tire while I was set up at a sawing job.  Anyway, the lugs broke and I never found the tire and rim.   

A car of young people passed me with the two girls in the front seat waving and pointing.  I looked in the right mirror to see a 100 feet of sparks following me in the road. 

How I got away with not damaging the wheel is beyond me. 

While it was a relativelly easy fix, I still needed to leave my sawmill on the shoulder of the interstate while I went to find new lugs.  Believe it or not, Lugs became my new spare parts addition.

We used to safety-wire bolts and nuts on equipment with heavy vibration, like motorcycle engines and airplane propellers.  Might not be a bad idea on lug nuts if we were to take the time.

Modat22

Never had a tire come off (Hope I never do) due to anti seize on lug nut but I have ruined the wheel studs with it. Anti seize will allow you to overtighten a lug nut to the point of stretching the bolt and stripping the threads off inside the nut. I've been there and done that one myself to over 7 studs at one sitting. Didn't notice a problem till the next time I took the tire off and what a mess that was.
remember man that thy are dust.

Quartlow

I've never seized lug nuts for as long as I can remeber, it's a family tradition. Dad did, every one in the family does.
On everything from cars to semis. We've never lost a wheel.

How long ago did you do have the wheel off? Did you go back and recheck the lug nuts to insure they where tight after driving it some?

Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

scsmith42

I'm in the opposite camp on this one, as I always use anti-seize on lug nuts.  I also always research the specified amount of torque and then use a torque wrench combined with a sequential tightening pattern on the lug nuts.  Here is some background going back to my engine building days as to why:

Bolts and studs provide the maximum amount of clamping force when they are slightly stretched.  Proper torque on the bolt/stud's nut - based upon clean, lubricated threads - provides the correct amount of stretch, and thus the proper amount of clamping force. 

During the assembly of racing engines, it is common practice to measure the length of the rod bolt and then tighten the nut until the bolt stretches a specified amount - as I recall about six thousands of an inch for the engines that I used to build.  The reason that we measured stretch is because it was the best indicator of proper clamping force.  Usually the amount of torque would vary by 10% or so to achieve the correct stretch, but in particular dirty or misformed threads required additional torque in order to achieve the proper amount of stretch.

Over torqueing a nut causes the bolt/stud to stretch past it's yield limit, and actually fatique the metal - leading to a potential failure or the nut coming loose.  Under-torqueing the nut does not stretch the bolt/stud adequately, and insufficient clamping force can result which will also lead to a loosening of the nut.

Clean threads, properly lubricated, are critical to achieving the proper amount of stretch on the fastener.  Dirty threads absorb some of the torque being placed on the nut, leading to insufficient clamping.  Additionally, the abrasive dirt can lead to thread failure.

Clean threads, with anti-sieze (which is a lubricant), allow you to properly torque and stretch the bolt / stud.  Although some may argue that tight threads will prevent the nut from backing off if it wasn't torqued properly, what can happen then is that due to insufficient clamping force the stud metal may fatigue - causing the stud to break.

Additionally, over time wheel studs that do not have anti-sieze may have the lug nuts "frozen" in place, and the stud may be fatigued (damaged) when the nut is removed, which shows up as a catastrophic failure down the road.

Regards,

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

SPIKER

I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

Fla._Deadheader


  I'm no Engineer and have NO technical background, BUT, I NEVER use anything to lube a lug. Might use something to break a rusty nut loose from an old wheel, but, never lube for tightening.

  Guess I'm one of them, too dumb to know it won't work types ???

  NEVER had one come loose or leave me.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

rebocardo

Sorry to hear about your misfortune! I have never lost a wheel and I do not wish too either.

FWIW: I always use anti-seize on lugs, though you should clean the threads before applying it and it does not hurt to wipe the studs down before removing the nut either. I have used it on 100s if not over 1,000 vehicles with no problems.

Believe me, if a wheel falls off they look to blame the last person to have it off, even if it was 10,000 miles ago.

I do use a torque wrench and decrease the max. amount by 10% when putting on a lugnut except on vehicles that require it over 120 pounds. Then I just do it at the min. (example 140 on my van) while ignoring the max.

On some vehicles, since noone does tire rotation with the 3k LOF anymore, if you do not have anti-seize on the lugs AND wheel hub, you are not likely to remove the wheel yourself if you have a flat by the side of the road.

Just to echo what someone else mentioned, removing a frozen lug does strip threads, I have had that happen a few times on other people's cars.



Brian_Rhoad

Lube on the threads will never cause a nut to get loose if properly tightened. Lube on the seat area may cause a nut to get loose but I doubt it if it is properly tightened. Lube used on a bolt in a blind hole will cause a false torque reading due to "hydraulicing". The oil has no place to go and builds up pressure in the hole. Never seize is thicker than oil, more like a grease but I still don't think it should affect the tightness if the nut was tightened correctly. We use never seize on the race cars and never had a problem with nuts or bolts coming loose because of it.

Tim L

I use never seize all the time . no problems in my exp.
Do the best you can and don't look back

Ironwood

The FORD manual says you must lubricate the lugs on F-450 and F-550's. Absolutely! They are VERY specific about it and it is posted in several places on the trucks.

              Reid
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

PineNut

I have heard that when a wheel comes off, the lug nuts can usually be found along the road. I had a wheel to come off of a trailer several years ago. Went back down the road and found all of the lug nuts but one. One that I found was damaged and could not be used. Borrowed one from the other wheel and was able to take it easy on down the road until I could get replacements. Figure I was very fortunate on this occasion. (I did not have any lubricant or anti-seize on the nuts.)

Don P

I've used anti seize on lugnuts for years too, I don't think it was the culprit.
I did break 6 of 8 studs on the motorhome rear once, leaving 2 side by side. I had put one of the aftermarket spacers behind the wheels to try to solve a wheelwell rub, boy was that the wrong move.

chainsaw_louie

OK, well there sure seems to be a lot of you who use anti seize.  I guess I got to get into the habit of using the torque wrench and  then re-torquing after 25 miles.   But I sort of like the safety wire idea, after what happened I think it would add to my peace of mind. 

bitternut

I also use anti-seize on lug nuts since I happen to live in the rust belt where the roads get heavily salted in the winter. I torque the lug nuts properly and then re-torque them after about 50 miles of driving. This is especially important if you have aluminum wheels in the rust belt as the wheels will stick to the hubs like they are welded if you don't. Proper torquing of   wheels is necessary with disc brake rotors also to prevent distorting the rotor.

One time I did have wheels come loose. It was not a result of using anti-seize. It was a direct result of overloading my truck with firewood. I made the trip from my woods to home ( 100 miles ) with a severely overloaded truck which had aluminum wheels. I unloaded the wood at home and then headed to work for the night shift ( 25 miles one way ). About half way there I started getting a vibration every time I let off on the gas. Felt like a universal was bad so the next day I dropped it off at my local auto mechanic to get it fixed. When I called him later in the day to see when my truck would be done he said it was all set to go. I asked him what the bill was and he said no charge. All he had to do was tighten the lug nuts. 8)  That was when I learned that severely overloaded aluminum wheels will loosen up. Beware if any of you have aluminum wheels on your truck or trailer.

Dana

I had a flat on my f-250 a year after it was purchased new. I was barely able to get the lug nuts off and the rim (aluminum) had swelled on the rear hub. A little die grinding to the rim, where it met the hub and anti-sieze to the lug nuts took care of it.
With 130,000 miles on her now, there have been no problems with anti-seize.
Grass-fed beef farmer, part time sawyer

submarinesailor

Having spent many years working on some very critical systems that required torquing and several years in a job that did nothing but engineering testing on these systems.  I have the very firm belief that nuts and bolts should be clean and lubricated.  Lubricated as directed by the design engineers! 

Example would have been what we called the dog house doors, access doors to the missile umbilical cords.  These doors were part of the people tank, people on the inside and water on the outside (a good thing in submarines) but they could be exposed to lots of sea pressure so the clamping pressure had to be right all the way around it.  It was required that the bolts be cleaning and lubed with antiseize – Leadplate 250 if I remember correctly.  I remember when several got stuck, took well over 500 ft/lbs to break them loose and then we had to repair the holes.  Yes, I wipe off and grease my lug nuts each time.

Don't know if it still holds true or not, but a long time ago, I remember reading a NAVSEA( Naval Sea systems Engineering Command) document about clamping force and lubricating nuts and bolts.  It stated that you could reduce the torque by 50% and get the same clamping force as a nut or bolt that has not been lubed and is fully torqued.

Bruce

Burlkraft

At work we use Anti-Seize on lug nuts all the time. On Budd wheels the combination of the aluminium wheels, steel studs and salt make a great welded on nut. There's nuthin' like a customer lookin' at his bill and askin' why it took 2 hours to get the lugs off before ya could even start the brake job.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Why not just 1 pain free day?

johnjbc

A couple of years ago I was on the way to camp going south on Rt81 just south of Carlisle when a Tractor Trailer Passed me and slowed down. When I pulled out to pass him he waved and pointed back at my trailer.
Pulled off and didn't see anything till I walked around to the other side of the trailer.
The back trailer tire was missing. Never did find the tire.
It didn't pull or shake or anything that you could feel, and I hadn't changes tires recently.
Luckily it wasn't loaded heavily like it is on the way home or when I haul the Kubota.
I don't use Anti-Seize but Keep 90 wt gear lube in an oil can and apply when they look dry. I also take time to check them more often now. ::)
LT40HDG24, Case VAC, Kubota L48, Case 580B, Cat 977H, Bobcat 773

moosehunter

Having been tightning lug nuts for 26 years I have found three reasons for wheels falling off. The first two have already been talked about. Under torquing and over torquing, both covered well in Scott's post.
The third is failure to clean the back of the wheel where it meets the hub and the hub surface. This is exspesially true with alluminum wheels. You can torque them properly, but if that surface has dirt or corrosion on it, the wheel will loosen up.
"And the days that I keep my gratitude
Higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days".    Ray Wylie Hubbard

chainsaw_louie

I checked the manufacturer spec on the torque setting and its 65 lbs.  This seems kind of light but with the other things like clean threads, clean hub and clean wheel backside, this must work.

Furby

You MUST make sure you understand wether the reccomended torque setting is wet or dry.
Lots and lots of listings are listed for dry, some are wet and some say so, but not all do.

scsmith42

65 lbs - I take it that your wheel studs are around 7/16" diameter then?  That would be about the right amount of torque for clean, lubricated threads.

Most of the folks on this forum probably drive trucks, with 1/2" or 9/16" studs (or the metric equivalent), which would require more torque.

Moosehunter, I intended to add a comment about cleaning the rims and hub faces and then went and forgot to include it!  Glad to see that we're thinking alike though.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

slowzuki

One thing to note, if you use anti seize and have a chain tire shop put a new set on, they tend to break one stud per wheel putting them back on using the wobble bars.  They use the same size bar for almost every car that comes in and every time I got there they cost me 50$ of wheel studs.

rebocardo

Around here we call them "torque sticks". Of course a torque stick does not work as well when someone never lets off the impact gun. Many of the imports require 70-80 ft pounds, so when they use one for 100 pounds it really can mess things up.

I have seen people use a regular impact extension because they lost their stick and say "I can tell by feel". So, then I walk over with a torque wrench and can't move the lug at 250+ pounds. Yea, tell me that feels right  >:(

Thank You Sponsors!