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Need advice -engine problem

Started by karl, December 15, 2006, 10:26:31 AM

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karl

Just got my mill engine back from factory rebuild- sawed four hrs yesterday-all's well.
Started it this morning and it started running real rough and then knocking. :( >:(
This means shipping clear accross the country again, hopefully the manufactorer is going to the right thing, but I need to know how to insure that they don't try to pass off the problem to me.
I have a call into them, but they aren't in yet(Dang time difference)
I'm not real sure I want to ship it without an independant professional seeing what the problem is, but also would expect that would void any warrantee. ???
Hopefully I am worrying over nothing(except of course the added down time that I can't afford >:( >:( >:( >:()
DANg, Dang, Dang and double Dang!!!
"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

leweee

What make & model? And are there any dealers in your area?
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

karl

Somewhat reluctant to name names at this point, but I need answers. If it turns out good I will indeed praise the folks involved......on the other hand...........
No dealer on this side of the country....it's a Mobile Dimension(modified VW)
I have pulled the plugs and rolled it over by hand- #1 and #3 cylinder come to TDC at the same time, at that point there is resistance as if there is something in the cylinder, I have probed with a soft wire and can feel nothing in the cylinder. A moderate amount of force clears the resistance and it turns smoothly with no rattles/ noises until reaching the same point again.
I don't have a Blown apart image of the internals of this engine, but there has to be some way that the oil pump, distributor and who knows what else run off the crank- any mechanical inclined folks seen the inside of one of these? what else can be binding???

The rep at MD is suggesting that "there may be some carbon sluffed off the piston binding it up"-IT'S A COMPLETELY REBUILT ENGINE WITH LESS THAN 4 HRS ON IT, Come ON!!!!!!!
I WAS born in the morning, but not THIS morning!

He proceeds to tell me how to pull the heads to see "if it is a simple fix" ??? ??? I can't imagine a mechanic stepping into the middle of this to check it out either. As much as I would love to find some little thing and save myself the time and cost of shipping and down time...If I had felt qualified to rebuild it, I would have in the first place! AND, the metallic clanging comming from this thing tells me It ain't "simple" The thought that keeps rolling around in my head is that if I open this thing up- they can say "warrantee void".
He has promised to speak with the rebuilder and get back to me as to what HE thinks......

Do I package it up and ship it back and hope they pick up the tab for costs incurred ( they will have my engine held hostage) or what?

Oh Lordy am I  >:( >:( >:(

Thanks for any advice, this sight has proven to be a valuable asset in the past, and Dang if I don't need help agin!


"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

RacinRex

Here's to hoping the do the right thing. I'd be aweful upset if they didn't step to the plate on this one.
81 Massey Ferguson 275 W/ loader
Stihl 046
Simplicity Bandmill
04 Dodge 2500 4x4 Quad Cab CTD
A whole shop full of wood working tools
and this is my hobby :)

Tom

It sounds like a good time to do nothing.  I know the down time is a burden, but, you have contacted a line of communication that is responsible for the repairs.

I don't know what MD's place is, but you contacted them, so, I'm assuming that they had it rebuilt.  If that is the case, they are, in my mind, responsible for the warranty.

The last VW engine I had anything to do with was one in a 1958 bug.  They would swallow valves back then.  It could be anything from carbon, to a broken valve spring to a whatever.

I think I'd just wait and let the "Rep" do his thing.  No since in climbing the rungs two at a time. :)

karl

Tom-
Probably good advice.......

"If that is the case, they are, in my mind, responsible for the warranty."

Ayuh, my thoughts too. I may be a tad jumpy 'bout this 'cause of a previous thread in which things were not handled in a respectable manner.......

Will attempt to be patient and see what transpires. :-\


"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

Slabs

I ran a dunebuggy based on a VW for a while and had some experience with engine (as most bug owners have) and helped some buddies with theirs.  The little horizontally opposed engines are cantankerous as others have suggested but are
reliable enough in the long run.  We "bug-ers" tend to "enjoy" our bugs somewhat more than most but they seem to hold up well with normal maintenance.  60's and 70's needed extra attention to valves at the 30 K mile range.

As for a rebuild from the "factory" failing after four hours and an overnite rest (knocking and other problems) there's just no excuse.  If the manufacturer (as you suggested as a repair facility) doesn't accomodate you with the problem, then you have a legitament complaint on service.

Demand satisfaction from your repair request.  Shipping should be their responsibility with the problems you have incurred.  Stay after them.  You spent your money on the service - get your worth from it.

Good luck
Slabs  : Offloader, slab and sawdust Mexican, mill mechanic and electrician, general flunky.  Woodshop, metal woorking shop and electronics shop.

Furby

Stupid question.........
Did you check the oil when you installed the engine?

trim4u2nv

My first car was a 1970 vw with a blown engine.  Given free from the neighbor.  A trip to the body shop got me a spare engine.  Anyhow at TDC you are at start of power or end of exaust.  The valves on these things were notorious for sticking.  The pistons then would slap into the valve and bend it or worse punch through it.  This depends on how far the valve was stuck open.  These opposed cylinders had valves that were also horizontal and could starve for oil.   If you take the rocker cover off with the spring clip, you can see the valves cycle up and down.  Also you can see if a stuck down valve on the questionable cylinder presents itself, while cranking the engine with a big socket.

DanG

Karl, I rebuilt my MD/VW myself, so I kinda know what the innards look like.  The only diff in that and a stock VW is the extended crank and modified case where the thrust bearing is.  Stop in at Autozone or somewhere and pick up a VW manual.  The pics in the Haynes manual are pretty good.

I would do as Trim4u2nv suggested and pop off the rocker covers.  That wouldn't void any warranties.  I would remove the spark plugs, which would get rid of the compression and make it easier to feel any irregularities as you turn the engine over by hand, plus it will be easier to turn.  You can also stick a dowel down each spark plug hole to tell exactly what each piston is doing at the time of the little obstruction you're feeling.  Also check the valve clearance per the instructions in the manual.  It sounds like they might not have tightened one of the lock nuts and a rocker might be out of adjustment.

Sending you a PM, too. ;)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

mike_van

Karl, a while ago i got a chainsaw for free, it had an awful knock, you could feel something wrong when you pulled the cord - I pulled it apart, the small brass screw that holds the throttle plate had come out & was sucked into the cyl, [it actually ran too]  I'm hoping yours is that simple, someone forgot to tighten something. Sad part is, if you want them to warranty the work, you gotta wait. 
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

karl

Hey all,
After I simmered down a bit I pulled the plugs and valve covers and did some more checking- determined that some thing had hit the plug in #1 and closed the gap, probed around in the cylinder with a copper wire and felt something, stood the engine onend and stuck a magnet in the plug hole and after a few trys fished out a piece of mangled sheet metal roughly 1.5 "long and .25" wide :o???
It turned over fine after that ::)
Another call to Ron(Mobile Dimension) and he says"try it, see what happens-there's probably no serious damage "Even though niether of us could figure out how the heck it got there ??? Sooo, I start putting stuff back on and get to the mufflers which I had removed assuming it was going back in the crate and one of them rattled and pieces start falling out- pieces a lot like the one in the cylinder......Hmmmm, don't suppose this has anything to do with anything, Eh? Can't believe a chunk that size went through the exhaust manifold and valve ??? ???

I like my crow bbq'd thanks ::)

Here lieth another lesson in jumping to conclusions......and a bit of newly discovered wisdom- if'n your gonna spend good money on a rebuild- BUY NEW DANG MUFFLERS!

Bet Ron is gonna be relieved too- looks like he's off the hook......

Oh yea, I did start it and it seems Ok- will get-ur back on the mill and hope for the best

Thanks for the input, looks like several of you were on the right trail..
DanG - good to hear from ya, I did check on a Haynes V-dub manual yesterday guess I'll look on line as they were out of stock here.

Ever notice how much better things look the next morning? (does NOT apply to nights at the bar)

"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

DanG

Well, that's just too kool, Karl! 8) :D :D  I'm bettin' that it happened on shutdown.  I've noticed when I shut mine down, the blade and flywheel keep that engine turning for a few revs and sometimes the compression on that last rev will kick the engine over backwards.  That would make the exhaust suck when it should be blowing, and it could pull something in.

The new-style muffs look better than the old ones.  They got them little flapper caps on'em, too. ;D 8) 8)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

sawguy21

That broken baffle might have been hanging around in the manifold and that particular time, the engine stopped on that cylinders exhaust stroke. Good to hear it was a cheap and easy fix.
Like Tom and slabs, I got educated on VW's during the 60's. My buddy's dad used them in his excavating business and they were always breaking. 'Course driving a 36hp truck loaded with steel cage wheels and three drums of fuel across farmers fields might have had a lot to do with it.  ::) Brian and I spent a lot of time in the shop.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

karl

Sawguy,
ya, think you may have been usin' them thar V-dubs to their capacity on occasion... :D
The news isn't as rosy as I thought- we got a knock now, kinda simmering and waiting for nasty weather (and a Haynes manual )to schedule surgery. Oh, yea, NEW mufflers are on order too ::)
some days the windshield, some days the bug....

"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

DanG

Karl, do you have the 67hp 1835cc engine?  If so, there are a couple of differences you will find inside that are not shown in the Haynes manual.  1. There is no oil slinger on the crankshaft.  It is shown in the manual, but doesn't exist.  I 'bout went crazy looking for it till I called Ron with my hat in my hand, and he laughed at me. ::) :-[ :D :D  2. There are some little positioning pins in the main bearing journals that do not show up in the manual, or in other VW models.  Be careful not to lose them, as you will not find them locally.

If you have to break the case in half, use only Permatex Aircraft Grade sealant to reassemble it.  Otherwise, you'll have the same sort of oil leaks that I have. :-\ :'(  It is usually easy to find at any GOOD parts house.  It comes in a bottle with a brush in the cap, rather than a tube.  Be sure to mark the flywheel and the blower well before disassembly, so you can reposition them properly.  Do you have the MD manual?  If not, at least get Ron to send you the procedure for removing and replacing the blower.  That is a MD proprietary part, and isn't covered by Haynes. Positioning it properly is important.

You have my phone number.  Feel free to call or PM me if I can help in any way. ;)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

karl

Hey Dang,
Nope, I got the 1700cc- 57 hp.
Good to know there are mo' s'prizes in store...... ::) Thanks fer the heads up,
By Gum, youre all right- I don't care WHAT they say 'bout cha!
"Be careful not to lose them, as you will not find them locally." So, your saying there ain't no extra parts in these engines?  ;D I usuall have extra parts ::)

Got my new mufflers today-Ooohh boy, they sure  are gonna look snazzy on my new "doorstop".. ::)

Had breakfast with an ole boy that works on boat engines- his business is a tad slow this time of year, so he's gonna take a shot at he'pin' me through a re-rebuild. 8)

-all I want for Christmas is to saw logs-
"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

DanG

Quote from: karl on December 19, 2006, 05:45:28 PM
I don't care WHAT they say 'bout cha!

I don't either. ;D

I didn't find any extra parts in my engine, at least not parts of a muffler! :D

I thought about having a contest to see if anybody could guess how I knew that you couldn't find them little pins locally.  I dismissed the idea because nobody would be able to figger it out. ::)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Flurida_BlackCreek

The rear main is held in place (keep from spinning) with that pin. I wish I could hear it I'd tell you exactly what it is that's knocking. Pull a compression test and check the rocker arm travel to make sure it didn't bend a valve and check the push rods to make sure they didn't get bent. Either could cause a knocking noise. If those aren't it, then pull the head, you could have more metal in there. You can change the piston and jug's without cracking the case if need be.
I'm happy anywhere south of the mason-dixon line.
-- cdb

DanG

Flurida_BlackCreek makes me think of something else to check.  You have two exhaust manifolds.  There is another cylinder that shares the same manifold with the #1, where the problem was found.  It stands to reason that some metal could have gotten into that cylinder as well.  You might want to check it out before you do any major surgery.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

karl

A ray of sunshine-
Finally, I'm sawing again.
What a ride getting this going again has been- decided agaisnt the boat man to to repair it- took it to an ole boy who knows more about engines than Websters knows about words. It took him quite a while to get to it, but for $200. he pulled it apart, extracted the additional pieces of muffler that were imbedded in the other piston, checked the bore and valves and it runs like a charm. The only rattle it has is the flappers on my brand new mufflers ::) I had just got it home and Mother Nature decided it was time for snow and wind- lots of both. Then my tractor went down( that one IS warranteed) finally got snow moved , motor mounted, and milling just in time for two loads of big ole pine to arrive 8)

Sure felt good to saw again, but I noticed that the lumber got heavier since I last sawed back in Dec.  ::) Hopefully I can spend mud season sawing and get caught up a bit.
"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

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