Quarter Sawing small log

[Bibbyman]

A new customer brought me two small white oak logs.  I could have told him he wouldn't get much out of them but I suspect it wouldn't do much good as he had me saw up an armload of cherry logs the week before.

Then he calls back a couple of nights later and asked that we quarter saw the BIG one!  The BIG one measures about 9" one way by 10" the other and is 4' long.

Got any ideas of suggestions? :

[Kevin]

At the risk of asking what might be a less than brilliant question ...why cant you just put it on the bed and cut it?

[Tom]

I think I would recommend to him that the log is too small to produce enough vertical grained boards to make it worth-while if the standard method of quarter-sawing is used.  But, If it is sawed "through and through" and if you are lucky enough to get a small heart shake then you will be able to get some Vertical grain.  

I might even suggest that he get it "flitch" sawed and then get some 1/2" stickers and put the log back together with them in it and tie it together with some plastic tie wraps.  That would make it special.

If he persists wanting to do the impossible it may be time to recommend that he find someone else.  Lord knows "you don't want to screw it up".

Frustrating, isn't it?

[Bibbyman]

Tom caught me on this one. ;D I bet everyone out there has had customers that didn't have a clue.

I once had a customer who wanted me to square out some white oak logs into 6x6 posts.  It took about 6 calls before the whole deal was committed to and the date set he would deliver the logs.  I was waiting for him at the appointed time when an 85 Dodge mini-van came down our privet drive.  Who is this?  I thought.  He pulled up and introduced himself.  He had seven white oak "logs" in the back of the mini van!  The larges wasn't much over 6" diameter on the little end.  Even though the load did make the back bumper on the mini-van about drag the ground, they were only stacked side buy side - 7 across.  One of the first things he asked was if I thought I could make two 6x6s out of some of the bigger ones!  I told him there was only a coupe that would make a face on all four sides.  Well,  he said to make them as big as I could get.

Later in the conversation,  he revealed that he was an inspector at our local nuclear power plant!!   I thought seriously about moving.
 :

[CharlieJ]

Sounds like you might get some nice 1/2 to 1" wide lumber out of those! :D ;D

[Kevin]

That`s what I was thinking, 4, 1" boards off each "log".

[CharlieJ]

I recently quarter sawed a 30" log. The widest boards I got were about 6", and they get narrower
as you go. So with a 10" log the return diminishes very quickly.

[timberbeast]

If I have 6 inch "logs" laying around,  I slab once,  then I make a 3x3 with next pass and sell them as landscape timbers.  Two passes,  3 bucks.

[Kevin]

Timberbeast
Do you debark the edges or sell as is?

[timberbeast]

Kevin,  they are clean 3x3s,  unless I get some wane.  I run a Mobile Dimension Mill.  It is kinda hard to explain,  but it has one vertical blade and two horizontal,  the top horizontal is adjustable,  and the whole mill can be moved vertically or horizontally.  I have 4-foot endstands,  so I can throw a 40 inch log on and cut it into anything I want without turning the log once.  They have a website,  just try a search on Mobile Dimension Sawmill,  and you should find it.  Mine has a 1700cc Volks engine,  and I don't have the trailer package,  it sits on 12x12 cedar bunks,  right in the woods.  It's a cool mill,  but pricey.  Check it out!  It isn't a bandmill,  so you lose lumber with the kerf,  but it's fast as hell.  I can do one of those "logs" in less than 2 minutes.(the small stuff),  incuding offloading and throwing the slabs on the pile,  alone.

[Bibbyman]

I've been putting in a lot of time thinking about this and here's what I thinking of trying:

1) I'll put a flat on all four sides.  Then turn the cant 45 degrees and put four more flats on it – using a small carpenter's triangle as a gauge on the first cut. This will make an octagon.

2) Then I'll take the top off one board above the center.  Then turn over so I can get a good clamp and take the now top off again one board above center.  Then spit the two heart boards.

3) I'll put the two tops back together inside to inside and stand them on them mill.  Then repeat step 2 making four boards out of them.

4) The four corners left may be a little tough to clamp.  I may have to use a piece of junk board against the backstops to saw the "point" off to get a clamping flat.  

5) Getting a flat,  I'll turn them up to rip off the upper corner and then turn over to got the lower corner on top. (I'll probably give the corners to him and he can rip them out on his table saw.)

I figure it'll take 27 cuts and 24 turns and clamps to make 12 bf of lumber.  Question is: How much should I charge?
 8)

[Tom]

Bibbeyman,

That'll work.

I think you will find the labor terribly intensive.
I would make sure he was there and acknowledged the "Pain-in-the-neck" cutting this one log was.

If he's like some of my customers, It's the only log he's got and you would be doing him more of a favor than he will realize unless he is there.  I'de make sure he watched me cut some "good" logs while waiting for me to put his on the mill or he may think that this normal.

I cut Octagonals for newal, nural, post.  However you pronounce/spell that.  You know, the post for the steps going up onto a porch.  

The 45 degree cut isn't too bad to do but making it come out clean at the end of the log is difficult.  Because you are trying to save as much wood as you can, it will be difficult to get the faces equal.

I also have problems with the Heart Shake in cutting the "dead center" boards.  If it is small and true then your best bet is to cut the widest boards at a 90 to it sot that you can get rid of it by cutting the pith out.

If there is a chance that the shake isn't true,(usually the case) then cutting the boards horizontal to it, but a ring or two away from the pith, will produce better boards.  You can't hide it in a 4/4 board.

That narrow board that will come out of the "ears" of the triangle may not be worth going after.  It may peel off of there like a planer shaving.  The tension will cause a lot of bow which will make it almost impossible to  cut that little top triangle off.

Then, this is where sawing becomes an art more than a science and you won't know until you try it.

To answer the question....$24.00 or $45.00 per hour, whichever is greater.

[Bibbyman]

I got around to sawing that little white oak log my customer wanted me to quarter saw.  I did it pretty much as I had planned but I just threw away the four little corners.  The log had some crook to it and was already sap rotten.  It did have some nice quarter saw ray flicks in it.  

 

[Barbara_Gill]

Hi Bibbyman; thanks for sending me the URL for this site.

I used to worry about the same thing when customers asked me to do something I thought was not in their best interest. Now, after 15 years I figure if they have enough knowledge to make suck requests and do not ask my opinion, I will just go ahead and do it. Life is much more simple that way. Who knows, maybe he has a good use for 3" quartersawn boards.  

[Bibbyman]

Your welcome Barbara,  It's good to hear from you.   8)

For those who haven't met Barbara,  she runs a Wood-Mizer mill back east and makes excellent hardwood floors from lumber she cuts,  dries and mills.  She e-mailed me a couple of years ago and attached pictures of her new "coverable" she was so excited about.  It was an Army surplus Dodge 6x6 with a 10,000 winch!  She was going to use it to recover logs from blown down trees.

She has a lot more info on her web site - well worth the visit.  Maybe she'll add a link to it.

Welcome Barbara!   This forum is fun!  (You got to throw in a Smiley   every once in a while though.)

[Jeff]

Welcome Barbara!

Yes, please edit your profile and add a link to your site, I would love to see it. Bibbyman is correct we have a great bunch here. I too am a sawyer, but at a little larger scale then the woodmizer. I saw about 30,000 ft a day at a large circular sawmill in mid Michigan.

[Barbara_Gill]

Thanks for the great welcome Bibbyman.  
You too Jeff. I almost missed that post. I really like the format of this forum but I haven't quite got the hang of it yet.  

[Jeff]

Looks like your doing just fine to me! Smilies and everystuff already!

[Tom]

Welcome Barbara,

That's what we need another Bandsaw mill.  I looked at your site and enjoyed the floor and that quartered oak board.  That's pretty stuff.  

Hope you are here frequently.

Wait till you meet some of the others...teachers...nurses....chainsaws....carpenters......................!

Tom

[Jeff]

Tom did ya catch the cottonwood crotch pic? Beautiful! I have seen the beauty in cottonwood over the years. Barbara, we had another thread where cottonwood was called junk wood. I say NAY!

[Tom]

I say neigh-h-h---h...hee hee

I saw it Jeff.  I love stuff like that.  The big cottonwood I sawed had some crotchs but they weren't special.  The thing was shook pretty bad too and I had a heck of a time getting anything out of it.  It was a lot of work.  

Did you notice the tiger on the oak?  That's what quarter sawing is all about.  I love it.

[Jeff]

Barb, I just read your philosophy on use of wide boards page. http://www.velvitoil.com/Wideboard.htm Excellent Material. Yes, even this board has had its threads on shrinkage and stability. (Wood Science thread in edu forum).

I love wide Boards, and I am glad you are using them.

[Ron Wenrich]

Barbara

Nice floors!  I see you are using wood species that many others don't.  Black locust is one.  I've seen birch, hard maple, soft maple, oak and cherry.  I've been told that the Japanese were using quarter sawn beech for bowling alleys, since it was lower in price.

I was wondering if there are other species you have used and what type of kiln are you using.

I saw in a circle mill, but we don't pull too much wood.  Get the logs in, and put the lumber out.  No time for specialty products.

[marc]

I would saw it right down the center and get 2 or 4 quarter-sawn boards out of it depending on if you cut out the hart wood and then flat saw the rest and tell him that is all the quarter-sawn wood you could get out of it. :-/

[Barbara_Gill]

Thanks Ron. We have used cherry, walnut, red and whit oak, hickory, SYP, black locust and  holly for accents in our house. Other jobs have been a little more traditional except for some teak and thick pecan (ugg) for a timber frame second floor . A flooring company ordered some Eastern red cedar strips the other day. They had a customer who wanted it. It was not available through normal suppliers, go figure.  :D

We use a solar kiln for the first drying then solid pack the wood till needed. Then it is stacked in a homemade dehumidification kiln and brought down to about 6% before milling. If necessary, we will buy wood from a supplier whom we trust to produce a quality kiln dried product.  We are very small and specialized.

[DanJ]

I am no expert on sawmilling, but with the smaller logs there is usually more stress and warp that come from these boards than mature wood. I find that if I cut the log in half, then cut the halves into quarters giving you four triangle pieces. The next thing I do is to lay the quarters (one at a time) bark side down on the mill and proceed to take off the boards until the entire quarter is sawn! You get the first piece as a triangle, but the rest of the boards come out as rift sawn boards (I hope that's the correct term, for a board that is half flat grain and half vertical grain). They all come out as 45 degree bevelled boards, but I use them for numerous things anyway! Hey that is value-added right there isn't it? This works awesome with bandmills, but the alaskan mill wastes one or two boards from each quarter! Just an idea if any of you are bored and want to try something with those smaller logs that I'm sure many of you have laying around!

DJ

[Tom]

I usually cook steaks, hamburgers and hotdogs on them Dan.  A pot of coffee on an open fire is better than one out of the kitchen too. :D

[whitepe]

Okay, all you quarter sawyers, I think I've found
the right place. I saw J.B. quarter saw some poplar
at the woodmizer 20th. It is a given that
quarter sawing red oak will give you some of the
finest looking lumber that the almighty ever gave
us the privilege of sawing. I also hear that
quarter sawing will make lumber that is more
stable and less prone to warping.
So my question is, What are species should I quarter
saw instead of flat saw?  I've got some ash, blackwalnut,
mulberry, osage orange and of course red and white oak.
My best log is the black walnut.  18 feet by 22 inches
at the non butt end.  I had to cut it into a 10 footer and
8 footer to haul it home.  :'(
Please keep in mind that I'm a rookie at this since
I just bought my LT15 in March 2002.

Bib, chime in here please cause I know you'll have some
excellent and welcome advice.

[Bro. Noble]

The white oak will make the extra effort worthwhile quartersawing.  The red oak less so.  The rest I wouldn't bother q' sawing myself.  Try q' sawing some sycamore sometime,  you'll really be pleased.

Noble

[Bibbyman]

Sorry to disappoint you WhitePe but a guy just can't be an expert at everything.  I'm more of a jack of all trades and master of none.  That little log was my one and only attempt at quarter sawing.  

Mary bought a lot of white oak logs this spring and I've saved out some to try some quarter sawing.  I thought if I added a couple hundred bf to my shed, someone would eventually want it. ;)

I meant to get to the demo on quarter sawing at the WM party but was visiting too much.  Did you take notes and or pictures of how they did it?

[whitepe]

Bib,

I did take one picture of J.B. and his off bearer quarter sawing the poplar.
Basically cut about 20% of the top and bottom of the log.
Cut the center pith section out and then flat saw the two remaining cants
which will yield a lot of q-sawn lumber.  J.B. said that this method
required less handling of everything.



Noble,

I have updated my biography and as you can see I also work for the
big yellow worm.  Been there since jan 1976.

[woodmills1]

that woodmizer method sounds more like the modified quartering that they spell out in the manuel that comes with the saw. I do some true quartersawing for one customer who makes barrels for movies, museums, and the booze trades.  he doesnt need the figure but wants lumber that will not fail when it gets bent.  He takes both white and red oak and boy is that stuff pretty.  I cut the log in half using the bed levels to saw right down the pith,  then cut each half again the same way.  the quarter sections are then clamped so that the growth rings are as near to vertical as possible.  every board gets edged due to bark on one side and bevel on the other.  but hey at $2.00/ bd ft green I take all the time i need.  and those triangle slabs are great for building worm fence. :D

[Tom]

Hey Whitepe, a most gracious welcome.

We don't do too much quartersawing way down here except for flooring and by request, but I have had to learn how to get vertical grain.  There are several procedures you can use and the way WoodMizer teaches is the easiest on a bandsaw. Check out our knowledge base.

This is a manual I go to frequently http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm
It is in our link directory and has all kinds of good info.

Check out chapter 3 for stuff about quarter-sawing. The chart 3-2 gives decorative value to flat sawn and quarter sawn woods by species. You have to take it with a grain of salt because every tree is different.

I have noticed that many sawyers, especially the new ones, put too much emphasis on quarter sawing.  It isn't the panacea of the industry as some would have you believe.  If you will read in between the lines in articles about gluing, nailing and stuff like that, you will determine that there are a lot of uses for flat sawn wood.  It isn't just the ease of sawing that makes it popular.  While Vertical Grain is pretty in some woods, it doesn't have the strength to hold a fastener. A nail or screw in vertical grain is separating the rings.  Water tends to soak in whereas flat sawn tends to shed it.  Vertical Grain doesn't cup like flat sawn but it sure does Bow.

So, while quartersawing is a good procedure to learn, don't think that it is the right product for every job.  I think that some folks get hung up on "Buzz Words" in their quest for knowledge and end up only skimming the surface of deep subjects.  

[whitepe]

Thanks Tom,

I am downloading PDF files from the FPL site right now.
I think that I will stick to q-sawing red and white oak
and sycamore for now.  I sure like some of the old
furniture made with q-sawn oak.  

[ARKANSAWYER]

 Sycamore is pretty Q sawn but you should see Dogwood,  it is the prettiest pink and has nice rays.  
  Bibby, you should have done that job by the hour. ;D  I bet them boards bow.
  Welcome to the newbies and enjoy for what we do not know we will make up something that sounds good. 8)

  And a 30 inch log should have made some 1x12 boards Q sawn.
ARKANSAWYER

[lamar]

ARKANSAWER thanks thats what I thought

[Gilman]

Tom,
Could you fix the link you posted a couple of years ago?  I'm curious as to its contents.

Thanks

[Tom]

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm

We have it in the knowledge base too.  Lots of man-hours went into this manual and I've read it from cover to cover more than once.   I have a paper-backed copy that I found in a used book store one time.  It's a sterling press "Encyclopedia of Wood".  There are some other books named this but none with the content.

It is one of the few technical manuals I've ever seen that makes entertaining reading.  It is easily accessible on the INTERNET , put "wood handbook" into google.   

The information is provided by the Forest Products Laboratory in Madison Wis.   Our member, beenthere, was an employee and can tell you a tale or two about the place.  When you come to the next Piggy Roast, corner him. :D