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Palm Nailers

Started by Radar67, December 10, 2006, 10:15:42 PM

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Radar67

Has anyone had any experience with palm nailers? I'm looking to reduce the stresses on my wrist and forearm while framing. I have driven close to 10k nails so far on my shed/cabin. I have 2 36 x 60 barns, a sawshed, solar kiln, and who knows what else in the future plans. I'm hoping it would save some time as well. Standard nail guns are not even being considered, due to no selection of nails for them in our area and the prices of the nails. I remember when I could swing a hammer 12 hours a day  ::) now, it is not that easy.  :D I've been comparing prices, found one at Grizzly for $20, and one at each of the big box stores for $80 each (Dewalt and Porter Cable). Anyone know the difference in them other than price?

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Don P

I'm on my third, the first 2 were Danair's and have the most noses to choose from but are expensive. We're on a big box cheapo now and its doing good about a year in. Get some gloves with a gel pad in the palm, I don't think these are better on your body.

DanG

Awww Radar, just go ahead and get yourself a framing nailer.  You will wonder why you didn't do it sooner.  Sure, a box of nails is pricey, but when you consider that they ain't exactly giving loose nails away, it ain't all that bad. You'll be amazed at how much faster the job goes, and how much fresher you'll be at the end of a day.  Lowes carries a fair selection of nails for most guns around here, and if they don't have it today, they likely will tomorrow.  I recently got a bargain on some galvanized 3¼" framing nails because somebody had spilled some paint on the box.  Saved $80 on the deal, I did! ;D 8)  Of course, there'll always be those special nails, biggies and super galveys and such, but you can still whack them in with yer whammer.  Ya need ta remember how to use one of them anyway, just in case the power goes out.

On a related note:  I recently equipped my 10 gallon air tank with one of those curly hoses and a quik connect.  I tried it out with the framing nailer, and drove over 60 framing nails on a charge.  That's really handy for fence fixin' and barn patchin' chores when you don't have power to all your locations. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

blaze83

I'll put in a good word for the hitachi framing nailer. I picked it up a couple of years ago at HD, they were selling the compressor, 50' hose with all the fittings and the framing gun for 495$.... don't know how I got along without it.  was going to get the palm nailer for tight spaces but havn't got around to it yet

steve
I'm always amazed that no matter how bad i screw up Jesus still loves me

Norm

Stew I bought a bostich when I was framing out my morton building (pole shed type). I had to run 2x4 stringers between roof trusses and used metal hangers. I used to dread putting up joist hangers until I bought one but boy what a time saver.

I also have the hitachi framing nailer, some old timers will tell you they don't hold as well as hand driven but that's bull hockey. Get one of each and you'll rough frame in half the time.


TexasTimbers

Radar you never said anything about considering a palm in lieu of a framing nailer on wwingtalk. My answer should be highly revised.
It's like buying a small electric chainsaw for your Alaskan sawmill. It ain't gonna work. I touted a palm nailer for you based merely on the fact that when you need one for it intended application it is indespensible.
If you are avoiding purchasing a framing nailer because of the availability of nails that isn't a good reason. You can buy several boxes each to a case each of framing nails and decking nails at a time whenever you do go to a big box or better yet, a contractor fastener store (all big towns have them) and keep them in stock. You will use them.  
And most areas even have a mobile fastener guy who comes through town on a weekly basis. Talk to your local contractors and I bet they get delieveries on a weekly or semi weekly basis. I doubt you are any more rural than us and when I want a box of ??? all I have to do is make a call and I can order one small box of 15ga 2" brads and there is no minimum order or I can order a pallet of whatever and get a huge price break.
Just because you are not aware of someone who has a route in your ares doesn't mean he isn't coming through.
Regardless of that, you need to bite the bullet and get a nailer. You won'tlook back.
i have a bevy of brands and types (half and full round) and can talk specifics with you if you want to get more info. I don't consider myself an expert on much as you can tell from reading my posts but in this area I think I can answer any questions you might have as I'm sure others here on the board can as well.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Corley5

I'd recommend a Paslode framing nailer.  No compressor required.  We love ours and can take it anywhere we need to use it.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

TexasTimbers

It doesn't sound like he would be using a framing nailer enough to justify the initial cost (althought they are nearly as cheap as corded now), but maintainence, and per fastener cost considering cells, batteries, and fasteners to purchase an Impulse Cordeless nailer.  ???
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

DR_Buck

QuoteI'd recommend a Paslode framing nailer.  No compressor required. 


Ditto.........  I dropped my air framer (import model) last year and broke it.   Parts weren't available, so I trashed it.   I'm getting ready to replace it and will be buying the Paslode.


BTW.  I also have two air brad nailers, a stapler, a roofing shingle nailer and a palm nailer.   All air operated and work well for intended use.  Just put 400 sqft of shingles on and used the roof nailer.  :)
Been there, done that.   Never got caught [/b]
Retired and not doing much anymore and still not getting caught

Radar67

I want to thank everyone for this great discussion. I have used the Pasload, framing, and finish nailers before. The replies prompted me to do some further research on nails. Based on my findings, the nails are comparable in cost to bulk nails, and I have no doubt that the stick nails will hold as well as the bulk nails. I do have concerns about the shear strength of the stick nails compared to the bulk nails. Bulk nails are definitely thicker, so do you have to step up to a bigger size in the stick nails to get the thicker guages for strength?

As for the Pasload, I was not at all impressed with it when I used it before (several months on a framing job). It is very costly to operate, not to mention the initial cost. I had to have one rebuilt during that time as well and it was not pretty.

Everyone's comments are swaying me toward a framing nailer...especially with all the future work I am planning. I'll have to check on the traveling fastener guys, otherwise I will have to order most of the nails. I can get common sizes, like 12d, but galvanized and coated nails are not carried at our local HD or LWS or Marvins, and I have yet to locate an industrial fastener supplier locally. Keep the comments coming.

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

scsmith42

Stew, I have a Porter Cable FR350 MAG framing gun, and love it.  It's lighter than average, and will drive a 3-1/2" .162 diameter nail.  It's the full round head version.

Amazon.com's Tool Crib sells good quality nails at a reasonable price.  I typically buy either ring or spiral shank nails, in the largest diameter that I can get (usually .131 or so).

The drawback to a full head nailer is that you have to reload more often.  However, I've found that the nails are a bit stronger than some of the clipped head nailers.

In five years of use, I have yet to rebuild the PC - not bad considering.

Good luck.  Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Corley5

We've used our Paslode extensively with NO problems whatsoever.  The main thing is to keep them clean.  You can drive a bunch of nails on one gas cartridge and the batteries last a long time.  They use the same clipped head nails as some air nailers.  Senco nails is one brand that is interchangeable.  As far as nail strength use more of them or buy ring shanks.  
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Larry

Amazon had one of there super sales on the Milwaukee 7100-20 round head framing nailers several months ago.  Bought 20 strictly to re-sell.  Didn't take any time at all to find new homes for 19 of em.  Several went to full time framers.  None have come back.  Have to say this is a great nail gun.  They claim it is the lightest on the market.  Air pressure adjustment at the gun, switch for sequential or bounce fire, and a five year guarantee.  Has a little more power than my Bostitch.

If your in no hurry watch the sales at Amazon...when they have one of there super sales it may only last couple of hours...never longer than a day or two so be prepared to buy.  The have pretty good price on reconditioned PC FR 350's right now.

Noticed your in coastal state...don't buy a clipped head nailer as it may not be to code now or in the near future.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

TexasTimbers

In shear wall tests the pullout strength is nearly identical as to full round versus clipped. Still, for whatever reason i do shoot full round more often now, even though my Hitachi plastic collated nails shoot bits of plastic at my face requiring saftey glasses as a must. I know I am probably wasting money.
And as Smith states you have to reload more often, and on double sequential cycling mode (semi auto) it ain't long!

I won't tout any brand over another, I will simply state the only paslode nailer I still use is an old 92 model that has never seen a drop of oil (don't mimick my bad habit here; I oil my Hitachis, PCs, Duo Fasts, and  but for some reason I never do this  Paslode) and it keeps on keepin on, even though I have abused it to no end it just keeps on keepin on. i have seen subs work for me that have had to have their new orange Paslodes rrebuilt in months, but my old gray machine has outlasted them all. Well, except for the REAL old Senco single cast aluminum body nailer that I don't use but it's probably 30 years old or more and works fine, just doesn't shoot anything longer than 3"

Of course the caveat here is that clipped nails will blow through sheathing and decking easier and thus they WILL have less holding power in that case.

Edit: Radar, one feature that I consider a must is a depth adjustment on the gun itself. Nothing worse than shooting deck nails on top of a 3 story and you have to climb down to adjust the pressure, then get back up and find out you need another half-turn.  >:(
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Murf

I'm with DanG, besides, those palm nailers sure do a number on my hands. They sure ache afterwards.........

At least with the framing gun it's only one bounce per nail, not dozens.  ::)
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

Radar67

Does anyone have a link to compare shear strength of stick nails to bulk nails. Using "more" nails is not an acceptable or economical solution in my book. The stick nails already average .02 per nail, compared to .01 per nail on costs. If I have to use 2 stick nails to equal the strength of one bulk nail, I'll stick with my hammer.  ;D

I appreciate the references to Amazon, but I don't do buisness with them due to differences in views. I won't get into that to keep from getting a heated debate going.  ;)

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Murf

Stew, while it doesn't affect the end user as much, if you're paying the guy who is doing the nailing by the hour, a couple of cents a nail doesn't go very far on payday.

At just $15 / hour, the guy swinging the hammer is getting $0.25 a minute, you don't have to save many minutes to make those nails for the framing gun look like a heck of a bargain.

I think you'll find a two nails of similar size will have similar strengths. Big companies like Stanley Bostich, Paslode, Rigid, and Porter Cable are going to try to squeeze any extra profit out of scrimping on nail quality. They are all fighting for market share, especially with the "pro" builders.
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

rebocardo

> I'm looking to reduce the stresses on my wrist and forearm while framing.

Not what a palm nailer will do, just the opposite. It is meant to drive nails into joists while hanging brackets where you can not reach with a gun or hammer. Works great for that, though a bit time consuming. What I do is try to tap the nails into the plate holes with a hammer, if it fits, and finish with the palm nailer.

> Bulk nails are definitely thicker

I have used (air powered) nail guns to build decks while doing day labor and I am pretty sure they were full sized 3.5" 16D nails we were driving.


Bulk nails are definitely thicker

Radar67

Murf, I agree it is much faster to drive nails with a framing nailer than by hand. You are also correct that the strengths are similar. I found charts on nail strengths. A 12d common nail has a shear strength of 94 pounds (9ga or .148 in/diameter), a round head stick nail 3 1/2 inch length is 78 pounds (10ga .131 diameter) and a clipped head nail is 76 pounds (11ga .120 diameter). The strength is reduced by about 20%. I'm not so sure I want to give up that much quality for quanity :)

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

KGNC

When I was building my house I hired 3 older guys to do some framing for me. They were doing a great job but maybe not as fast as I would have liked. I asked them if they could use a nailer, they didn't see the need. I brought in a Bostich nailer anyway, it took them a few days to get going but then there was no stopping them. They ran through nails like crazy but they  also were building walls faster then ever. By my rough calculation the nailer added nothing to the cost of the house.

I was also concerned about strength but as mention there really is no difference in pullout strength. The shear strength may be a bit lower but even in the hardest woods nails don't generally shear, they pull out or tear the wood. 

There is also something to be said for conserving our bodies. I figure my shoulders and elbows have only so many swings before they are worn out. Why waste my precious (to me anyway) body on something I can do with a nailer for an extra $300.

submarinesailor

Round head vise clipped head.  My bother is a builder in Florida and after all the hurricanes came thru.  He had to go out and buy all new guns because they changed the codes to round heads only.

Bruce

Don P


Nails in shear and withdrawal are all about diameter and density. The gun scsmith mentioned is shooting a 16 common(.162), that's larger than the 16 sinkers most of us hand drive (.148)

You can compare nails and woods here.
http://www.awc.org/calculators/connections/ccstyle.asp

Connection quality might have as much to do with wood density as which diameter you use. Ring shanks and threaded nails have the least strength loss as wood moisture content changes.

A question I heard and have since wondered about, if it's truly shear, does the head even matter  ???

Larry

Glad you posted again Don with additional info.  I think a lot of the newer guns are shooting a .148 roundhead nail if you wanta pay for it.  I dunno but I always thought withdrawal was the limiting factor.  Guess we also have to consider head shape.  Hurricane winds pulled sheathing over the head of clipped nails so maybe that is the reason they got banned?  Course I guess we could ban nails and go to screws...or even better lag bolts.

Sometimes I ponder...don't take much of a nail to keep a building up.  Takes a whole lot more to keep a building down...when the wind blows a might.  J bolts, bracing, hurricane clips, and strapping is where I put the money.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

thecfarm

Probaly I've seen a palm nailer,but I have no idea what one is.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Don P

Here's a palm nailer I was talking about earlier
http://www.danairinc.com/palmnailer.html

You get the ponders too Larry  :D. Wind loading is something that doesn't get much mention but pushes down or takes apart alot of buildings. I've been strapping more and more as time has gone by.
I guess the thinking is that connections should be designed to work in shear whenever possible. Think about how they make those strap and hanger nails load. Sheathing is a case where the plywood is working in shear but when the wind is popping under it the failure can be in withdrawal. Must be what the head is for  :).
One thing to be careful of when nailing sheathing is not to overdrive the fasteners. Lack of nails and overdriven nails is almost always the cause in those dramatic flying and flying apart roof pictures. One of our inspectors became the sheathing nail police  :D

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