advice on a generator

[sbishop]

Hi guys, i'm looking at purchasing a generator(never had one before). looking for advice on does and don'ts

what do you guys have?

i'm looking for something that I could use at the house(since my house is wired for one, electrician said around 5000watts would be enough) and also I could drag to my cabin. At the cabin I would only need it for lights and maybe a tv and dish. Don't need a pump since I have a gravity feed spring.

I don't want to get too big of one since I would be burning gas for nothing at my cabin. it would only be used at the house in emergencies only!

why is a honda/dewalt/yamaha 2 1/2 times more then lets say a porter cable or coleman?

THANKS for any suggestions!

SBishop

[SwampDonkey]

I got no advise on the generator. I was just wondering how ya made out with the new camp on the Bortibog. Dad said he wants to go up to the 'North Pole' country this summer. Ain't been there for 10 years. I imagine the roads are in bad shape now. Used to go up there fishing when they started building roads up above the Little SW. A lot of good fishing times.  8) I wonder if the bridge is out across the North Renous.

[Engineer]

I have a Generac 4000 watt, bought used with approx. ONE hour on it, the owner bought it from Home Depot and they wouldn't let him return it due to being used.  It's a decent, if loud, machine.

why is a honda/dewalt/yamaha 2 1/2 times more then lets say a porter cable or coleman?

The Honda/Yamaha machines are quiet, very quiet, and generally have higher quality output.  Sometimes they utilize an inverter to "clean up" the output power so that it is uniform and modulated, suitable for running electronic equipment.  It's all in the quality.  I have not found anything branded DeWalt to be in that class of quality.  Coleman is just cheap.  Some of the cheaper machines use pretty noisy Briggs or Tecumseh engines, lower end generator units or low-end parts.  If I had the coin, I'd get a Honda or Honda-powered unit.   

[red]

I have been looking for used generators  but have not found any real good deals most are priced close to new units   my thinking was that there would be  a bunch of Y2K units  that have not been maintained  or people just buying a bigger unit

I was thinking of a propane unit until the price of fuel went sky high last year 
the thinking there was  not having to pour fuel in bad weather just get the tanks filled

on the backup unit for the house there are some air cooled diesels that you can run off your heating oil  that seems like a good option  but HD

[PineNut]

Advantages of propane is that the fuel does not go stale. It would be more difficult to obtain additional propane during bad weather conditions so you would have to keep a good supply of propane on hand.

[sawguy21]

I strongly recommend buying a quality unit. We had a run on generators after a recent storm and subsequent power outage. One customer had purchased a cheap Chinese made unit and the voltage regulator failed. The lights went real bright then dim and his 'puter went south. :D
Unless you are willing to run extension cords, have an electrician install a manual load transfer panel. Select the essential circuits that you need in an emergency such as the fridge, freezer, sump pump, furnace and a few lights to run off it. When the power goes off, switch over to standby and start the generator. When the street lights or neighbors lights come back on, switch back to line and shut the generator down.
The ultimate is an automatic system. As soon as the power fails the panel will automatically switch to standby and start the generator within 30 seconds. When the system senses the power being restored, it will wait until the power is stabilized then switch back and shut the generator down. You don't need to be home which could be really important in northern climates where there is a risk of pipes freezing.
If you run a portable use gas stabilizer, nothing worse than a dead generator when you need it. Propane or natural gas is the best. Diesel is expensive and noisy. red, Y2K units dried up years ago.

[beenthere]

Friend of mine just bought a camper for his pickup, that has a propane-fueled generator in it, but he has the old propane tanks. Can they be retrofitted to the new valves, or will he need to buy new tanks?  They looked like a special tank with a bolt-down bracket welded on each one.

[Furby]

They should be able to retrofit them. They will inspect them and then decide if they can retrofit them.
In some cases the price is about the same to just buy new tanks.

[Raphael]

  I've got the 5500watt (8500watt surge) Wheel House by Generac unit (Home Depot), it's a good size for doing double duty and seems to produce good clean power.  I've only managed to pop a breaker once while ripping with my 10" table saw which is better than the circuitry in my father's basement/workshop.  :

  The Briggs motor has worked ~20hrs. a week over the past year; it is a bit louder than I'd like and it has a bad oil level/tilt switch (I just unplugged it) but otherwise it functions flawlessly.  Loud is relative, our neighbor (1/2mile away) has a monster whole house unit that fires up about twice a year and really lets you know it's out there.

[Trent]

I've got a "5500 watt" that is really 4400 watts. I called the co. and the guy finally confessed that it was some legal loophole and the could call it a 5500 watt. 220v * 20a = only 4400 watts (sinple math). Mine has a 10 hpTecumseh engine and a copper wound brushless gen. My old gen. has brushes, maybe all the new ones are brushless? Copper wound gen. are better than aluminum. Honda engines are better (last longer, start easier). I converted mine to run on natural gas or gasoline, natural robs another 20% power, but keeps the engine very clean because of no carbon deposits. I have a simple $10 home built device to check the hertz.  I think a big part of it is, how many hours are you going to put on it? Mine sits in the shop, I think my engine is cheap, gen. is good (copper wound) blah, blah, blah... 

[sawguy21]

Most generators are rated at peak wattage but continuous running load should be no more than 80% of that which would explain the difference in your numbers. This allows for the heavy current draw on startup. Briggs and Stratton is a notable exception, they rate theirs at continuous load.

[john_boylan]

Get a wheel kit with it.  Check to insure that the 240V outlet is rated for the full output of the generator.  My generator is rated at 6000W continuous, but for some reason is limited to 4800W on the 240V output.  This limits what I can do with my transfer box, since it will only accept the 240V input.  The folks on the Gardenweb Forums tool forum talk about generators a lot--you might want to visit there as well.

John

[rebocardo]

When hooking this up to your house, do it safely so you do not zap a lineman trying to restore power.

Myself, I would go diesel. Fuel storage is safer and for a longer time and it runs longer on a gallon of gas, especially off load.

[Trent]

One more very important thought about generators. As has been pointed out, be careful about backfeeding into your panel (to energize the whole house) I've done this, being careful (being certain the main is open) and had no issues. The big concern for me is, if there were a fire caused by anything, I think the insurace co. would try to get out of paying. Using a Transfer switch is the way to go, this makes it "legal".

[beenthere]

Backfeeding can be prevented by pulling the meter out of its' socket, if in an emergency situation. Usually what I do to be absolutely sure.

[Larry]

I bought one of those Y2K generators just cause the price seemed to be a bargain.  It's a Generac with a Robin engine.  Not what ya would really call a high quality machine.  Shortly there after a big ice storm came and my elderly parents were without power for 10 days.  The generator was big enough to keep the fan running on the gas furnace along with the fridge which enabled them to stay in the house the duration.  Dad would fire it up for an hour or two than shut it off for about the same length of time.  Put out good nuff ac they could even watch a little TV.  So guess you could say it's already more than paid for it's self.

So I've been storing it in the shed with gas stablizer.  Course junk gets piled around it and doesn't get any attention.  Maybe few mud dobbers build a nest...hopefully not in the wrong spot.  Saw the other day battery connections were all corroded up and I'm sure the battery is dead.

Sure would be nice to have it sitting on a concrete pad outside the house, with a insect proof cover, transfer switch with the essential circuits wired in, and a high quality battery charger to keep the charge up on a big battery.  Price the extras out and there gonna run twice what the generator cost. 

I sure wouldn't trust opening the main breaker...especially in an older home to prevent feedback.  You find em froze up and inoperable.  Jerking the meter is positive but some power companies are putting on padlocks instead of seals now days.

[scsmith42]

Lots of good advice here from others.

I have three generators on the farm.  A 5500 watt propane that's hooked up to an automatic transfer switch to run the well, electric fences, kitchen, furnace blower, TV and upstairs bathroom.  I get about 3.5 days of 24 hour runtime from a 100 gallon propane tank.

I also have a 12KW diesel welder / generator that I use for portable needs.  If I want more juice in the house, I shut off the main breaker on the load center, and backfeed the generator through the dryer plug.  This gets me air conditioning, but I have to be carefull not to overload it by turning on too many appliances, etc.  Since the ATS on the propane generator runs off of the main panel, when I start up the welder /generator the ATS shuts off the propane one.

I have a third diesel generator, a 5500 watt that I use on a portable shop trailer.  It's a one cylinder Hatz diesel.

Lessons learned - if you're doing a "permanent" installation propane or natural gas is a great way to go.  The primary benefit is that you don't have to worry about the carb gumming up or the fuel going bad.  The downsides are that it's difficult to refill your own tanks in the midst of an outage, and that it's less portable than a gasoline or diesel generator.

Second - get the quietest generator that you can afford.  If you're running it during a power outage, the noise can keep you awake.  If you use it for portable power on a job site, the noise can be distracting or deafening.

Third - you'll get about twice the efficiency from diesel as you will from gasoline.  However, if you don't have other diesel equipment then it becomes a hassle to keep fuel handy.  And make no mistake, you'll want to have several days worth of fuel handy in case of an outage.

Fourth, try to exercise it at least once a month, and preferably twice a month.  This will help ensure that it's available when you need it.

Fifth - keep a battery charger running on it to keep the battery up.  I prefer the Batteryminder brand of desulphanitation chargers, as they will not overcharge the battery and will also preserve them longer.  I got ten years of use from the battery on my propane generator, primarily because of the desulphanation type of charger that keeps it hot.

Many people who use a lot of portable generators professionally often refer to Generac's as either "Generjunk" or "Genercrap".  Onan, Kohler, Honda, Ingersol Rand, and northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company all make really solid generators.  As mentioned earlier, Yamaha and Dewalt also have a good reputation.

I had one of the inexpensive Coleman's for a while.  It worked ok, but used a lot of fuel and was extremely loud.

Hope this helps.  Good luck.

Scott

[jgoodhart]

I have a Miller Bobcat generator / welder to power the house when the electric goes out. It has 8k watts at 220 volts I hook it up to a 50amp 220 outlet in the garage or shop and open the main breaker on the main panel. I checked on generators and it seamed like alot of money just to sit around waiting for the power to go out so at least now I get alot of use out of the welder. I have it mounted on a trailer so it can be towed around. Are eletric was out all the time till I bought the welder now it hardly ever out >:( >:( :D 

[Greg Cook]

Having had "construction" generators, I finally shelled out the extra money for one of the Honda EU series generators. As mentioned earlier, they use an inverter to create clean AC power.  The reason they are so quiet is that they generate the power as DC to begin with, then through the inverter change it to stable AC.  This lets it run at a much lower RPM. We all know how good the Honda engines are, and having it run slwer should make it last that much longer.  If you plan on running computers, you really should have the clean power from one of these units.  Also, some microwaves, TV's and other electronics will mess up when using a construction type generator.  I burned out a power supply on my computer with one.  Good luck,
Greg

[submarinesailor]

About pulling the meter – I would be real careful in doing that.  About a year or two ago, a friend, who's a master electrician here in the state of Virginia, told me that you could be fined up to $1,500 for breaking the seal and pulling your meter.  They want to know when a meter has been pulled, the reason behind the pulling and has it work been inspected prior to reinstalling it.

Bruce

[beenthere]

However (granted that they could give you a hard time ), I have found that when their power is out, and you are generating your own, and you are being sure that their linemen are protected --- they ain't a gonna hassle you for pulling their meter.   Just call them and let them know, and they will gladly come out and reinstall the meter and/or the seal.

About the padlocks, I'd cut it in a heartbeat if need be. I've often thought that pulling out a meter should be more difficult than it is, just because a burgler or someone meaning to do you harm, could easily disconnect your house power very effectively by just pulling out the meter. Usually they are easy to get to, and easy to remove. Just an ugly thought. Sorry.

[Polly]

 8) 8) 8) 8)i have a honda gen i think i gave around 2,000 for it it will run about three hours on tank of gas  i wish i had bought a pto driven one that i could have ran off my diesel tractor i could have got gen for alittle over half the money and it would have been twice as big and a tank of fuel would have probly ran the tractor at least one day  live and learn  :D :D :D :D

[PineNut]

I had the local power company tell me when we had an extended power outage, just go ahead and pull the meter.  Sometimes there may be a problem knowing when the power was restored but on our last extended outage (about two weeks) I knew when it was about to come on as they spent over a half day replacing all the lines along the road by my place.

[theonlybull]

we've got a couple around the shop that we use,  a cheapy princess auto one, 3000w in our welder, and a 19kw unit we built, with a 36 hp wisconsin v4....

but,  as a volly fire fighter, we use honda gens.   we've got a 5000w, and a 6000w...  never fail to start ( always on the first pull.)  i don't even use the eletric start, takes longer then the rip cord... 8) ..  their nice and quiet, and dependable as nails.....  but very pricey.

as a standby, that's not gonna be run 24hours a day. a cheap will do the job.  but won't last as long, be as good a power, or be near as quiet

[IndyIan]

I have a Yamaha 3000 watt generator with the inverter and sound proofing and electric start.  It is very very quiet, I've had people ask what it was as it wasn't nearly loud enough to be a generator.  Down side is it very very heavy, 200lbs empty, so it is not that portable, it has wheels of course but is a bit much to lift into the pickup truck bed by yourself.  The other plus is that it runs at 25% output for 20 hours, 2.5 gal tank.  Also it only puts out 110V but I think some inverter models now do 220 if you need it. 
I would look into some of the smaller inverter models which would be good for your camp and if you actually had an emergency at home it doesn't burn through gas like a conventional generator does and you can run your freezer or fridge for a couple hours each day and they will be fine.

Ian

[wiam]

I am training officer for the local fire department.  We had a power company safety guy come in to talk at a meeting.  He showed a video of a meter blowing up when it was pulled under load.  We are firefighters with special training.  WE DO NOT PULL METERS. We wait for the power company to come and pull the fuse.

Will

[beenthere]

Guess that makes good sense. Must be some gas that is ignited from a spark when pulling them out under load and they sometimes explode.  Don't expect they always do that, otherwise they'd have a huge warning sign on them, I'd think. 

But.....if one is out of power, and going to hook up a generator to get power in the home, and pulling the meter protects the lineman........ : : : ??? ???
Me thinks I'll pull the meter.....but not when the house is under load. 

If I was a fireman, and killing the power in a house was important to my safety, I'd figure a way to pull the meter safely from a distance rather than wait for someone else to show up 'after awhile'.  But I'm not a fireman, and not qualified to make those important decisions. :

No offence meant to the hardworking volunteer firemen here. 

[Part_Timer]

Beenthere

Don't hold me to this but if I remember right the spark actually makes the air conductive and allows the phases to short together.  At least it does at 4,000 volts.  That's why I hate working on it.

[theonlybull]

beenthere ,  i've never even seen the power company pull a meter for us.  they do everything at the pole.  they have no interest in getting close to a building we're working at  :.

i've seem some pretty nice shorts when the mains burnt off, and i've worked a fire with live lines on the front lawn...  ya gotta be safe, know the risks, and watch your back.  but in no way, do we touch power lines, or meters..   

[sbishop]

Thanks for all the advice guys!

It looks like I need 2 generators for 2 different needs...a bigger one for the house in emergencies and one for the camp..smaller one as I only need to run lights and tv.

my plan is to purchase the bigger one first, use it during construction at the camp. once it's finish purchase a smaller one for the camp as it would save on fuel cost!

but i'm having a hard time forking over 3k for a nice honda generator..I know they are really really good but I don't have 3k to fork  ;D

i'm kinda eyeing a briggs and stratton 6500W with electric start for the house and  a small 2000W honda for the camp when its finish!

any thoughts on the B&S?

Sbishop

[sawguy21]

The Briggs is a very decent generator and should serve you well for your intended purpose but you may find it too noisy for extended use.

[sprucebunny]

I built my house with a 5500 watt generator. Honda 11 hp with a Dyna generator. Have to be really careful selecting a compressor to go with it as it won't start the compresser ( I have now) when it has air pressure : Makes filling the backhoe tires at a remote location interesting.

When the power goes out, my main box has TWO disconnects, one indoors and one outdoors.

I also have a little Honda 1000 that I love ;D When the power is out in the summer I just put it out on the porch and run a cord to the 'fridge, computer and a light.

[sawguy21]

We sell a lot of generators to building contractors and find 6500 is the minimum required for most compressors. Does your unit not have an unloader to release pressure in the head when the unit shuts off?

[sprucebunny]

Sawguy, The compressor has no unloader. Unless it's me ;D I run over there and let ALL the air out of it and turn it on again. I used a different compressor to build the house.

If I build another house, it's not going to need a nailgun.

[sawguy21]

An unloader is easy to install. You will need a check valve with a 1/8 weatherhead fitting in the line to the tank. Get a pressure switch with an unloader fitting, hook the two with a copper line and you are good to go.

[Bro. Noble]

I thought I'd bump this thread back up------it's that time of the year and snow is on these Ozark hills.

We have a 25 KW generator that we run the dairy barn with.  It is a pto unit so we use it around the farm for welding,  spray painting,  and construction.  We have a double pole transfer switch at the barn and at two of our houses.  We usea 3500 portable unit when the larger isn't needed or when the power is out and the larger one is used elsewhere.  My wife and I are thinking ablut getting one to leave at our house so we don't have to spend so much time jockying generators around during long outages.  We priced some last week at a local hardware.  They were priced cheap ranging from about $400 to $1400  for 2.5 KW to 10,000 with electric start.  They were boxed up and no indication of the make of engine.  Thje clerk didn't have any literature and didn't know anything about them.  He didn't want to open a box,  but did say that they had sold a bunch of them with only one return and they had a place to send them for repairs.  The brand name was Steele.  I expect they are junk,  does anyone know for sure?  My wife said she thought that was a well respected brand.  She asked if I didn't have a bunch of chainsaws made by them :D :D

[Gary_C]

I've seen the same ones at various farm supply stores. Plus Sam's club has one you can order that is real cheap for it's size.

But two things about these China made things are troubling. One is they do not run test most items. So then you become the quality control. Hopefully the store would take them back if they are defective from the start. But you never know.

Second thing is they do require some repairs occasionally. So how long would it take and how much would it cost to send it back to some far away repair shop, even if it is in the US? Could you afford to be without it for a month or more?

I did not buy one because of those reasons.

Also you must consider the noise factor and run time. I have an older 6500W Briggs one and I get real tired of the noise after about a half hour. And it is not very economical for extended run times. I think a four or five gallon tank will only last for about 4 hours. As compared to those small and quiet Honda generators with load sensing that will run for about 12 hrs on a gallon or so of gas. For long time running they are the best but pricey and with only 2000W capacity. But they can now tie two together for twice the capacity.

Bailey's has them in their catalog but you have to call for the price.

[Fla._Deadheader]

To effectively wire a generator into a house, you NEED to pull the main breaker. Down here, there ARE NONE, until maybe VERY recently. We have a knife switch at the meter and also at the house, on the outside wall.

  To do it correctly, you NEED a double pole, double throw Switch, between the meter and the house breaker panel. You HAVE to throw it one way to use Power Co. and you HAVE to throw it the other way, to use the generator.

  There should NEVER be a reason to have to pull the meter, although, I have done that, on occasion, being I youster work for a Power Co.  : :

  What makes the fire ball is, AMPERAGE from the full load in the house. The pulling of the meter, will allow that electricity to bridge the gap, from the meter prongs, to the meter pan, (where it plugs in). YEP, done that too.  : : :  Only way to stop it is, shove that sucker back in the pan. Once the meter is completely out of the pan, the ARC will burn until something burns away and breaks the circuit.

  Had it happen on a pole one night. Missed the socket throwing the fuse door back in, and actually melted the Porcelain box housing. Passed the Hard Hat through the flame, trying to break the arc, and melted that baby, like nothing.  : : ;D ;D :D :D :D  Weren't funny at the time, though.  : : : ;D ;D