Tracked skidders, again

sprucebunny · November 09, 2006, 05:51:39 PM

Coon and I both have tracked skidders we're working on. I'll let him tell you about his and we can be 'backseat engineers' or is that 'seat-of-the-pants-engineers' :D ?

My project is a fifty year old J5 Bombardier and I need some bushings. Plain steel bushings. Look like pipe. I almost fell out of my seat when the first quote was $55 each for a 1/2" ID x 3/4" OD 1" long bushing. There's plastic ones (not cheap either!) and bronze ones but steel ones are hard to find. Drill bushings are a possibility but might be too hard ? Does anyone know ?

I've finally found some at Connex but there's a $50 minimum (that's fine ) and they ship COD. That's OK too. Thiers is spring steel and supposed to be the part that wears out.

These go to a shock absorber that's between the front bogey axle and the rear tandem bogey assembly.There is an inner and an outer bushing.Unless someone has better advice, I was going to use drill bushings for the big part and the Connex things for the small part.

http://www.connexusa.com/HTML/application.html

Coon · November 09, 2006, 06:40:47 PM

Well as Joan has mentioned I am building a tracked skidder that I have a few questions for you experts here. I will try to explain everything to the best of my ability. I do not have a dig cam as most of you know so you will have to picture the project in your mind. Any and all help is very much appreciated.

The project is to put a 1976 Subaru DL car on tracks with very little to no money available for the project. I do although have alot of resources available that include old farm equiment for steel and parts as well as a variety of tools to work with.

What I plan on doing is using the steering clutches and drive components from a John Deere 200A Self propelled swather that will be driven off of the Subaru's transmission via a common shaft. My first dilema is whether the steel I have will be sufficient for the rails and undercarriage. The steel is 3"x3" boxbeam that has 3/16" walls. It is from an old cultivator and is in very reasonable condition with no visible cracking or cracks that have been welded up. I was wondering if it would be strong enough for rails if I welded one on top of another and put in a few cross braces to hold the binding from happening?

There will be more to come but I have to lay my aching back down. Too much snow shoveling I guess.

Brad.

Burlkraft · November 09, 2006, 06:55:44 PM

Sounds like a fun project..... ;D ;D ;D

Good Luck... ;) ;) ;)

Stephen1 · November 09, 2006, 07:15:07 PM

Sounds like a great winter project. But maybe building a snowblower would be a better project. ;D

woodbowl · November 09, 2006, 07:58:23 PM

Quote from: Coon on November 09, 2006, 06:40:47 PM
Well as Joan has mentioned I am building a tracked skidder that I have a few questions for you experts here.

OK Brad, fire away when your ready. Be sure to include lots and lots of pics! ;D

Coon · November 10, 2006, 09:01:35 AM

Woodbowl, pics aren't a possibility right now, no dig cam. I will be taking some the old way though with the 35 mm.

What is your opinion of using the 3x3 x 3/16" boxbeam for rails and undercarriage? Will the Subaru be to heavy for it?

What do you guys and gals think of of using tractor tires for tracks? Probably would have to use two tires for each side and cut some of the sidewalls out as well as make some keepers out of angle iron.????

Will get to more questions as they arise during the project.

Brad.

Brad.

KGNC · November 10, 2006, 10:00:38 AM

Sprucebunny:
Drill bushing are mostly precision ground on the ID and OD and they are expensive. I could not tell a lot from the photo. Do you thing the bushings have to be steel? You can get Bronze bushings at McMaster-Carr for about $3.45 each. How hard are they to get to? You might try the bronze and see how they last, would be a not to expensive experiment.
http://www.mcmaster.com/ and look up part # 2867T21

Ed · November 10, 2006, 10:53:02 AM

The bushings you found at Connex are probably your best bet.
Powered metal (the generic oilite type bushings) are not designed to handle an impact load. With the constant cycling of the shock absorber they will break apart. There are tougher "bronze bushings" (cast bronze instead of powered) available, but the price will probably scare you away & I don't think they will hold up as well as the Connex bushings.

Ed

thurlow · November 10, 2006, 11:45:57 AM

Coon, there was a detailed article in Farm Show magazine a few years ago about a fellow doing exactly what you're doing; I've got a CD around here somewhere with that on it; I'll try to find it................don't hold your breath. ;D

RSteiner · November 10, 2006, 11:58:52 AM

There are many different alloys of bronze available for bushings of that sort. One material I have used before that is very tough is Ampco 18.

There must be a small machine shop in your neck of the woods that could turn up what you need. Material is not cheap these days but you should be able to find some one to sell you what you need and not have to purchase more than you need.

Randy

woodbowl · November 10, 2006, 03:04:29 PM

Quote from: Coon on November 10, 2006, 09:01:35 AM

What do you guys and gals think of of using tractor tires for tracks? Probably would have to use two tires for each side and cut some of the sidewalls out as well as make some keepers out of angle iron.?

Coon, I've been looking for info about that for a long time, even posted a topic about it. https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=15394.msg218736#msg218736 There is some good stuff here, I just wish there were some pics.

Thurlow, you found dat CD yet? :

thurlow · November 10, 2006, 03:51:48 PM

Nooooooooooooooooooooo; it's on my to-do list, but not right at the top. ;D You might poke around in here........http://www.farmshow.com/index/searchdb.asp

sprucebunny · November 10, 2006, 06:20:24 PM

Thanks for the bushing advice, fellas. ;D
I'm going to use the Connex. The old ones were steel and some are worn. My next concern is the outside bushing which is worn on a couple of them. And does anyone have an opinion on whether to use grade 5 or grade 8 bolts ???

Coon : the steel 3x3 you have weighs 7 pounds per foot. You might want to envision what the whole machine will weigh in relation to the engine's power and there will be more friction in the track. You could look for used conveyor belt for tracks >3-5 ply. Then you could make grousers out of angle iron and the inside keepers out of flat steel with a diagonal half 2" slices of the 3x3 like the letter 'P'.
Just thinking with my fingers :D

Reddog · November 10, 2006, 07:08:28 PM

Grade 8 will wear longer.

Mr Mom · November 10, 2006, 07:20:45 PM

You might call a CATERPILLER dealer and get their hight strength bolts there are stronger than grade 8.

Thamks Alot Mr Mom

Coon · November 10, 2006, 08:57:07 PM

Can you elaborate on those keepers sb. I am not quite sure whether I know what you mean.

I have a friend that used tractor tires for tracks long ago when I was still in high school. He used them on a unit he completely built from the ground up. It was very small and used about a 10 or 12 hp garden tractor engine and transmission to drive a couple of steering clutches from a swather. It was slightly underpowered because of his choice of engines and was what he had around. Actually he used his running garden tractor for parts just so he had an excuse for his wife to let him get a new tractor with all the bells and whistles. He had an even better plan in store though which he knew would work. The tractor they had was pretty worn out and the wife wouldn't run it. He knew that if they had a new one she would be on it working the garden and mowing the lawn before it even needed done. :D :D I guess with thinking like that you could understand why their marriage lasted for so many years. They have been married now for just over 60 years. ;D

Back to the tracks. I will be joining the tractor tires together with homemade hinge-type system. I may not have to cut too much of the sidewalls out if I can manage to get the right size tires which I will get for free from the local tire shop for taking taking them off his hands. I will be running 16 inch 4x4 tires on implement rims. I will also be bolting on pieces of angle iron to the track to be used as guides to keep them inline with the world. ;)

What should one be using for suspension for such a rig as this one I am building? Coil springs?

Brad.

woodbowl · November 10, 2006, 08:59:28 PM

Quote from: thurlow on November 10, 2006, 03:51:48 PM
You might poke around in here........http://www.farmshow.com/index/searchdb.asp

I did and here is what I found. http://www.farmshow.com/index/detail.asp?article_id=60032475&source=FARMSHOW

It seems we can't view it online, rather we have to buy the back issue.

sprucebunny · November 11, 2006, 10:40:34 AM

Coon, here is a pic of the grouser set ( inside and outside of the rubber )
You can see the P shaped part that helps guide the tires and the sprocket .

And here is a track hanging from the sprocket and an old sprocket propping it up. The little axle you see is a bogey and attached by a coil spring to the back tandem axle.

Coon · November 11, 2006, 09:33:37 PM

Thanks Joan. Those are almost exactly what I was thinking they were and just had to make sure. The keepers I am going to make are out of angle iron with some fishplating to keep it from bending closed. I don't have my tires yet so I don't know what size I will be using. I was also thinking that I could possibly make those keepers from scratch using a single piece of iron, and bend it similar to those you have.

What is the measurements of your "P's"? What is the measurement from the long flatside to the point of the "P"? What angle are they bent at? I would like to know more about your whole machine if possible and Yes, I have read most of the info you have posted on the forum. (I think)

Going to sit down tonight and figure out some of my gearing I need to do.

Brad.

sprucebunny · November 12, 2006, 06:42:49 AM

What do you have for a sprocket, Brad ? The number of teeth will have alot to do with gearing. There are machines that just use tires but all eight wheels are driven. Argos and tracks

The size of the P relates to the width of the track and the width of the tire. Any width tire will work.The larger diameter, the better, to increase ground clearance. I'll measure the angle and post it a little later.
A suspension picture.

The left side ( the side with the bent axle stub :

)

This is an axle from the Thiokol. It would have a full leaf spring mounted on each end and a tire at each end of the spring.

theonlybull · November 12, 2006, 08:14:24 PM

it looks to me, that the bolt draws the 2 sides together against the inner bushing, and keeps it from moving, all the wear should occur between the 2 bushings. i may be wrong, but see if the inner bushing is a lil' wider then the larger bushing. if so, i'd use steel for the inner, and brass for the outter. mainly, one bushing should take the wear.

sprucebunny · November 12, 2006, 08:49:31 PM

You are correct that the inner bushing is longer and clamped by the 2 sides.

I've ordered the Connex bushings for the inner one and they say that thiers should be the wear part ???

Coon · November 13, 2006, 12:22:10 AM

Joan, I will count the teeth on the sprocket tomorrow. I was going to do some figuring on the gearing thing last night when I realized that I hadn't gotten some of the needed figures down on paper. I was going to do that today and I got busy with other more important things like going out to the farmers place where I am getting all of my parts from. He is giving me all of the parts that I want for free because he thinks it's really something that I am building things from these otherwise unneeded parts. Heck I have gotten hydraulics parts for the processor and for the skidder unit that would total up to probably $1000 if I were to buy brand new. He wants to slowly get rid of all of the stuff he has because he is now retired. I need to get all the parts before the snow gets too deep and it gets too cold out. The weather was mild so......

The sprockets and hubs that I am using for the front and back are from the John Deere 200A swather that I wrecked for the steel and the steering clutches. ( He had two identical swathers that between the two I have got all of the drive components other than a couple of sprockets, chains, bearings, and possibly shafts. But I am pretty sure I can find the needed shafts on one of the pieces of equipment Henry has there for parts. He has 4 combines, 2 swathers, old grain augers, old tractors etc, etc, etc..... Gotta love that goldmine of parts. It's just like " Mr. Hooties " only all he's got is farm equipment. He's got a beautiful winch there that he had on a winch truck but it is way too big for my unit. ) The hubs that I am using have a drive sprocket on kinda like a rim. The sprocket is on the back edge and the tire rim fits on the front of it. It uses implement rims with 16 inch rubber. I am removing the implement tires from the rims and replacing them with 16 inch rubber from a 4x4 half ton. The tracks will go over these tires. I have not figured out or found tires and hubs etc for the idlers yet, but I am quite sure they won't be too hard to find out at Henry's Hacienda.

Tomorrow I'll be out at the Hacienda most of the day gathering parts. Not all of them will be for the skidder. I am in very bad need for a chimney in my garage and can't afford to buy one so, when I was out there today I walked around the yard looking for something to use. I found an old 6" grain auger that the outside flighting (tube) is still in good shape but the iauger is shot. So tomorrow that will come apart. I will take the tube off and cut three sections out. One will be from the woodstove up to where I will put the damper section, then the damper section (about 12") which will have a homemade damper inside, then the last section going up and out the roof. East way to save atleast 100 bucks or more. It'll work and outlast what the current chimney did about 3 or 4 to one.

Brad.

sprucebunny · November 13, 2006, 09:10:56 PM

Here's a picture to help you think, Brad ;D

Coon · November 13, 2006, 09:54:57 PM

That pic will definately help me think. I was thinking about making a similar walking beam type idler system but still questioning a few things. I don't yet know if I will be using just one or two idlers on each side. If I do use the two I will use a walking beam system. I just don't know how much smaller of a tire I should be using for my idlers???? The wheel base of the Subaru is 96.7", overall length of car is 164", width 59.3", and weight is 2040 lbs. The car has 13 inch rubber.

I have a pic of a car the same year etc as my Subaru saved on the comp. (from the net) but don't know how to post it. I am not all that comp. literate. ;D

Brad..