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So I have this dillemma

Started by badpenny, October 29, 2006, 09:12:56 PM

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Warren

I'm with Brad_S regarding it is tough to say "no" when you're starting up a business. But there comes a time when you learn that in some instances, "no business" is better than "bad business". 

I've also used Bibby's line "Well then, thats the place to take your logs."  when they start singing the praises of another mill.

I had one customer I cut for one time.  Swore I would never saw another one of his logs.  Later on found out he has been run out of two other mills.  Any time he comes around, I am always busy with "something".

Warren
LT40SHD42, Case 1845C,  Baker Edger ...  And still not near enough time in the day ...

badpenny

   Thanks, all, for your responses. A message on my voice-mail today explained that I'm charging too much, and he will be looking elsewhere for a sawyer. I wish him the best of luck with no animosity.
  Deer season opens Sat am, and goes to the sunday before Thanksgiving, so now I have time to hunt.
Hope and Change, my foot,  It's time for Action and Results!

bull


VA-Sawyer

The question about using log or lumber scale brings back a bad memory. My .30/bf rate was based on counting the good lumber. I was sawing Walnut for a customer that was hard to please. He would put usable boards over in the slab pile because they had sapwood or too many knots or some other excuse. He only paid for the wood in the 'good' stack. Of course, when I came back the next day to finish the job the slab pile was a lot smaller than I had left it the night before. I was new to the game at that point and didn't know what to do about it. Later on, if I had a customer that wanted to call a fair board trash, I would put all the rejects back on the mill at the end of the day and saw them into narrow but random size strips to make sure they were trash.  Normally, at the end of the day, when I would add up the stacks to get a tally, I would be more than fair with the customer when it came to the bf total.  If  1/2 or more of the board was bad, I wouldn't count any of it, unless the good part was REALLY great and at least 6' long. I always made sure if the customer went back and totaled up the bf  on his own, that he would have more than he was billed for.  Most customers were happy with my tally, and the bill that followed. The few that weren't.... would have complained if I billed only a dollar for the whole job.
Now, I charge by the hour. I never charge for more hours than I spend on the job, but sometimes, I don't charge for all the hours. It's my choice now.
VA-Sawyer

rebocardo

"the circle mill last year only charged 12.5 cents".

I would have said that is a great deal. My price is still $#.## a foot .

I charged $0.50 a foot and even at that price, I have sold all the wood off the mill.

At .25 a foot a 2x4 is going to cost him $1.33.  Can he get it cheaper at Home Depot?

> Also wants them stacked and stickered next to the mill.

That is when you start charging $50 an hour and ask if he wants to help.

>  Am I wrong in my thinking, or is my price about in line with most others?

For small jobs, a bit on the low side. I think it depends on the target market for the wood. Is it for shed wood where very board with wane is being used where the lowest cost per board matters or is it for a cabinet maker?

>  so would be about 3 weeks of work for me. I have not done any "for hire" milling yet,
> this would be my first paying customer.

Knowing this I would say take the job for the .025 per foot. Then next job go to hourly $30-$50 or .50 a foot. Especially for 2x4 which takes a lot of time.

I know using a chainsaw mill cutting 2x12x96 you can easily cut 500 BF a day. I would stick with cutting 2"x12" wide material to maximize your BF per day at .25 a foot. If he wants 2x4 and 2x6 I would charge .50 a foot. You have the saw, he does not, cut on your terms to make the most money per hour. Let him "save" money by cutting the 2x12s down on his own table saw.  ;) 

All done and said, if you can not earn $30-$50 an hour using your own equipment, you are not charging enough and I do not care what the BF per day is.





rebocardo


"the circle mill last year only charged 12.5 cents".

I would have said that is a great deal. My price is still $#.## a foot .

I charged $0.50 a foot and even at that price, I have sold all the wood off the mill.

At .25 a foot a 2x4 is going to cost him $1.33.  Can he get it cheaper at Home Depot?

> Also wants them stacked and stickered next to the mill.

That is when you start charging $50 an hour and ask if he wants to help.

>  Am I wrong in my thinking, or is my price about in line with most others?

For small jobs, a bit on the low side. I think it depends on the target market for the wood. Is it for shed wood where very board with wane is being used where the lowest cost per board matters or is it for a cabinet maker?

>  so would be about 3 weeks of work for me. I have not done any "for hire" milling yet,
> this would be my first paying customer.

Knowing this I would say take the job for the .025 per foot. Then next job go to hourly $30-$50 or .50 a foot. Especially for 2x4 which takes a lot of time.

I know using a chainsaw mill cutting 2x12x96 you can easily cut 500 BF a day. I would stick with cutting 2"x12" wide material to maximize your BF per day at .25 a foot. If he wants 2x4 and 2x6 I would charge .50 a foot. You have the saw, he does not, cut on your terms to make the most money per hour. Let him "save" money by cutting the 2x12s down on his own table saw.  ;) 

All done and said, if you can not earn $30-$50 an hour using your own equipment, you are not charging enough and I do not care what the BF per day is.

> "the circle mill last year only charged 12.5 cents".

This proverb is 300 years old

14 " It is good for nothing," cries the buyer;
      But when he has gone his way, then he boasts."

SawDust_Studios

Quote from: badpenny on October 30, 2006, 04:57:51 PM
  Thanks, all, for your responses. A message on my voice-mail today explained that I'm charging too much, and he will be looking elsewhere for a sawyer. I wish him the best of luck with no animosity.
  Deer season opens Sat am, and goes to the sunday before Thanksgiving, so now I have time to hunt.

Don't be suprised if the guy calls back in a few days saying something like "Everyone else is busy, so I guess I'll LET you do it for that"  I've had a few guys offer to take business elsewhere, some did, some where happy others weren't, but many came back..  Some people just want to be able to dicker the price, no matter what. 
Making Sawdust on a Woodmizer LT40SHD CAT 51 /WM Twin Blade Edger and WM DH Kiln

SawDust_Studios

Quote from: VA-Sawyer on October 30, 2006, 06:11:37 PM
The question about using log or lumber scale brings back a bad memory. My .30/bf rate was based on counting the good lumber. I was sawing Walnut for a customer that was hard to please. He would put usable boards over in the slab pile because they had sapwood or too many knots or some other excuse. He only paid for the wood in the 'good' stack. Of course, when I came back the next day to finish the job the slab pile was a lot smaller than I had left it the night before. I was new to the game at that point and didn't know what to do about it. Later on, if I had a customer that wanted to call a fair board trash, I would put all the rejects back on the mill at the end of the day and saw them into narrow but random size strips to make sure they were trash.  Normally, at the end of the day, when I would add up the stacks to get a tally, I would be more than fair with the customer when it came to the bf total.  If  1/2 or more of the board was bad, I wouldn't count any of it, unless the good part was REALLY great and at least 6' long. I always made sure if the customer went back and totaled up the bf  on his own, that he would have more than he was billed for.  Most customers were happy with my tally, and the bill that followed. The few that weren't.... would have complained if I billed only a dollar for the whole job.
Now, I charge by the hour. I never charge for more hours than I spend on the job, but sometimes, I don't charge for all the hours. It's my choice now.
VA-Sawyer


I had something similar happen a few months ago.  My friend is an cabinet maker with 20yrs experience.  He had a customer come by with Walnut logs, he wanted a kitchen out of them.  My friend has a small breezewood mill and cuts his own logs only, but will do this if the person is buying a kitchen. 

Long story short, the guy decides he doesn't want the kitchen but still wants his logs sawed.   So, I get the job and my friend helped.  I tell him I charge .30bdft and we will stack it for him and he needs to sticker it when he gets home.  My friend asked me to measure the stack and he measured it separately, we came up a mere 30 bdft different.  The total was 1450bdft.  When the guy comes to pick up the lumber with his friend, he says nothing.  He'll drop off the check later that day.  When he comes back, he says "My friends been in the logging business for 30yrs and he said there was no more than 1000bdft in those stacks.  We told him that was fine, if it was our mistake, we'd gladly goto his place and remeasure everything.  He backed off and said, no thats ok. I"ll just pay it.   

Some people just like to take advantage.  Sometimes starting out, you let them. With a little experience, you quickly can identifying most of these people.
Making Sawdust on a Woodmizer LT40SHD CAT 51 /WM Twin Blade Edger and WM DH Kiln

badpenny

   And when he calls back, I will probably be too "busy' at a higher rate to be able to work his sawing into my schedule. Still have siding for my house to get sawn this winter, and in a month or so, birch to make into 4 1/4 for cabinets and such. And firewood for my mom's wood furnace, snow to plow,trees to cut, logs to skid, deer to hunt  well you get the idea. Come spring, there will be a basement to dig, blocks to lay, and get a house built by fall to move from this corncrib of a mobile home into.Did I mention there are deer to hunt? And Jesse will need a few days here and there for log siding
I have to admit, the extra $ would be nice, that would let me get a sharpener and setter for the blades, but thats not high on the list right now. Did I mention deer season opens This Sat?
Hope and Change, my foot,  It's time for Action and Results!

VA-Sawyer

If he calls back, go talk with him. Sometimes all it takes to make a good customer is some education. His calling back will mean that he has learned a thing or two about Sawyers and their value. If he still has an attitude... well, it does sound like you are going to be real busy this winter and spring. And, there WILL be a price increase next spring if not before.
VA-Sawyer

jpgreen

Maybe he's like my grandmother who's so tight she sqeeks, and if you mention a number, I don't care where it is, or what it is, it's an automatic gasp, and automatic flintch, and a look like you're crazy..  :D
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

SwampDonkey

The longest piece of lumber I used on a project might be handy to 4 feet. That being said, I can pretty much use anything off a mill as long as it ain't a cork screw when dry. So, for someone to go sorting through my milled boards and rejecting what he calls junk so he don't have to pay, then to have the pile of rejects (I consider belongs to me by now) to disappear at night, I think I'de consider that being a robbery in progress. Pack up the mill and warn any sawer to stear clear.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

DomR

I don't quite understand.  If he cut the trees and you cut them into boards ( what you were hired to do ) then why wouldn't you charge for the work.  I usually work with steel and if I go through the process of making parts to spec they get shipped and billed for all of them.  If they should find something wrong I have them send it back to me and credit the account.  Customer does not keep bad parts- I do.  At that point it's my loss.  If they want to keep the "bad" boards I would charge for them or else cut them into strips so they actually are BAD (and useless) lumber
just my 1.6 cents (allowing for inflation)
Dom
life is a merry go round and I'm getting dizzy

Fla._Deadheader


YEP. You can only get out of a log what is IN it. Not your problem that the customers logs are "Iffy". I would stack and measure ALL boards that are "usable". If it's not usable in the log, cut big slabs. Every cut you make takes time and material. Culling is not acceptable except if you are trying to make cuts at all cost. There is always "evening up" cuts to get a better surface. There is always "test" cuts, to see if serious defect runs out in the next board. That's all I DON'T charge for. I don't charge for a small amount of stickers. Lots of stickers, I edge boards and keep track of what I used FOR stickers, and charge for it. Raising your price will cover some of this "picky" stuff, if needed.

  If it's not usable, be sure it's not, unless the customer is new or a really good customer. Any signs of Whining or other things, I get suspicious.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

VA-Sawyer

SD and DomR,
I was fairly new to the world of sawing back then. I didn't really understand that a log could look nice and only have junk wood in it. I was under the impression that a good sawyer could always get good wood out of a good looking log. I believed that any time a good looking log gave me junk wood that it was due to my lack of knowledge and skill as a sawyer. I know better now, but that is the reason my sawing contract said I only charged for the good lumber produced.
There is a little more to the story about the guy that was putting usable boards in the slab stack... the job was about 50 miles away and I only charge mileage for one trip per job. If it is large enough I can't finish in one day, then it is probably worth the cost of going back . Problem was, I would have everything that was ready for sawing all cut up by early afternoon, so I wasn't getting a full day of sawing for my travel. He would then haul more logs up to the saw area (over a week or two of time) and expected me to consider it as being the same job, so as to not have more travel charges.  I did make enough trips to cut all the logs he had shown me in the woods on my origional scouting trip. After that, I quit returning his calls. That was about 2 1/2 years ago, and he still stands out as being my worst customer ever. 
There have been guys like him since then, but I figure out their game pretty quick and don't let them get to me. 
VA-Sawyer

footer

These are some good reasons to charge by the HR for custom sawing. You also don't have to take the time and measure all the wood you cut. If it were me, I would charge for every board cut, unless I screwed it up. It is your equipment, and there logs. It costs just as much to saw junk logs as good ones.

DR_Buck

QuoteMy quick reply would be, "Then that's the place to take them." and the converstion would end right there.

We've done some stacking and sticking for a few customers and charged $350/mbf.


I agree with Bibby and many of the others who have commented.   To me this is a "no thank you, I'm not interested" job.    Everything I cut is 30¢ bf  or $60 per hour.  And, I don't stack and sticker.  That's the log owners job to take care of.  My job is to run the mill.  My mill don't even roll out the drive for less than $250.    In the almost 3 years I've been milling, I've learned to walk away from small logs, logs not stacked where I can get them on the mill easy, and customers that sound like there may be issues.   I don't need the problems and thats what those jobs are.
Been there, done that.   Never got caught [/b]
Retired and not doing much anymore and still not getting caught

VA-Sawyer

Sometimes, it goes the other way. The customer is nice and the log fools both the customer and the sawyer. I had a fellow call me from West Point ( about 15 miles away ). He had a Black Walnut log he was going to bring over for me to saw. He arrived with the log on a trailer, so I took a moment to look it over before moving it over to the mill. Good looking log, about 100 bf, fairly straight with no big knots or signs of rot. We put it on the mill and 2 cuts later, the story is very different. The whole inside of the log is mud. It starts about a foot from one end and runs till about a foot from the other end. I'm not talking a little 'punky' here, the stuff was falling out of the log as I was sawing. I told him we could stop right there and I wouldn't charge him anything for my time. He said to keep sawing, as he had put in too much effort to quit now. He got maybe 5 bf of usable wood, and paid me full price for sawing the log, about 25 or 30 dollars as I recall. I did feel a bit guilty about charging so much and him only getting junk wood, but I had offered him an out.
Well, that was over a year ago, and was the first time I met the guy. He has brought me a few jobs since then, and sent some other folks my way as well. He is a pleasent fellow to be around and always insists that he pays full price. I think about that Walnut log every time he pays me.
He called the other day and wanted to know if I could fit him in and saw some Cedar for him. As we were cutting out his boards, I asked him what he was going to build with that nice wood. He asked "if I really wanted to know". I said "yes, I did". Turns out he is using it to build the coffin for a 'lifelong' friend.  I told him any wood I saw for a coffin gets a 'third off ' discount because of its special purpose use. This time he took the discount. I'm glad he did.
VA-Sawyer

rebocardo


4woody


Tom

I'll bet your customer remembers your compassion as well.  Good story.

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