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So I have this dillemma

Started by badpenny, October 29, 2006, 09:12:56 PM

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badpenny

   A local person asked me to look at some logs he has and give him a price on sawing. So I looked at the logs, 6" to 14" tops, 10' long, jack pine, and he wants all 2x4 and 2x6 with no 1" boards, Also wants them stacked and stickered next to the mill. I am guessing the stickers will "magically" appear. When I told him .25 a bdft, he almost accused me of highway robbery, as "the circle mill last year only charged 12.5 cents". This circle mill is 65 miles away from his log pile, and he does not want to pay for hauling, as fuel has driven hauling prices beyond his budget. Am I wrong in my thinking, or is my price about in line with most others? I am a one man show with a manual 18" mill, so the best I have done for myself is 500 bft a day, stacked and stickered from 12-18" 12 ' long pine making mostly 2x8 with 1x and stickers from flitches.
   There is about 6,500 bft of lumber to be milled from his logs, so would be about 3 weeks of work for me. I have not done any "for hire" milling yet, this would be my first paying customer. Any and all comments or suggestions would be appreciated
Hope and Change, my foot,  It's time for Action and Results!

sawguy21

What do you mean, he wants them stacked and stickered next to the mill? Is he trying to tell you how to do your job and is it his mill or yours you would be using? From your description, sounds like the job might not be worth the aggravation.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

4woody

most guys around here get .35 cents so i dont see its to much

hiya

I run into this in my home improvement business. There are too many people like that. They want it for nothing, than laugh about it later how they took advanyage of you. You know what you have to have to live. If you work for less than that you may as well work for nothing. In that 3 weeks you could be making more doing something else.
just my 2 cents worth, ( with inflation thats not much ;D).
Richard
RichardinMd.

barbender

I think it would be tough to make money cutting dimension lumber with a manual mill. (that's what I have too) If you are cutting 500bf a day, which I think you're right, is a pretty good day for 1 guy on a manual, you're only making $125 a day at .25 a bf. At the same time, your customer would be paying $1.33 per 8' 2x4 and $2 per 8' 2x6. That's a little heavy and I can understand where he's coming from. I would pass on this one personally, too many board feet. Maybe watch for specialty jobs that would be too small for a big mill, that people would pay you by the hour or something. I've never cut for pay either, just my own wood, so as always just my .02
Too many irons in the fire

Mooseherder

Thats only 125.00 a day before expenses assuming everything goes right.

arj

In Connecticut I get .37 stacked on skids. Stickers and skids are made
from there logs. Logs must be delivered to my site, and lumber picked
up and payed for SOON after I`m done cutting. I run an Oscar 36
                              arj

woodbowl


I'm full time at this badpenny, sawing on the customers site with a WM that has hydraulics. I charge .20 for 2X & .225 for 1X. I haven't went up in price in 5 years, but I probably need to. It seems to me that you are more than fair in your price. The only thing I would do different is, I wouldn't sticker the lumber. That will eat your profit right up.

When I first started sawing, I did things like that to build my buisness. If your OK with $125 bucks a day for your efforts right now, I'd say go for it. It's good experience.

QuoteWhen I told him .25 a bdft, he almost accused me of highway robbery

There's your que. I call it "that ole' talk". I usually say something like ... if you want me to saw it, I'll be glad to saw it for you, if you don't that'll be alright too.

I don't let them push me around much any more, but I've never left a job either. If they act like a jerk, I charge them close. If they appreciate my work and try to make things flow, I find myself giving extra boards to the count and going out of my way to make things easier for them. Funny how that works. Seems to me like you just spotted a hair splitter.  :)
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

badpenny

   Thanks, all, you are right in line with my thinking. I can understand his thinking on cost of milling, plus cost of planing in a year or so, will be as much or more than what the big box stores are charging per piece. But I'm not into paying him for the priveledge of milling his logs into lumber. I have a Navy retirement to live on, so this is not a "have to" type of work. And when the planer in town needs an extra set of hands
when making log siding, I work 3-5 days a month for him,for cash, and they provide lunch. The owner is an old school chum of mine, and has an artificial right leg from just above the knee from a hunting accident, so they get cheap help, and I get a free meal. Not sure which of us is coming out on top there.
  I think that milling and dead stacking next to the mill for .25 is not to bad, and let him stack and sticker where he wants to will be the only way for me to go, if at all.
Hope and Change, my foot,  It's time for Action and Results!

Rail-O-Matic

What I have done in the past when I get penny pinchers like him is, offer to take a % of the lumber as payment, but tell them you will charge for the fuel and time it takes to sticker it all up, and nine times out of ten, they tell me they want to sticker it themselves, but they don't realise where the stickers are coming from, if they do, then they are on the make, walk away.

Its funny how some think that giving you produce instead of money, will save them money, but what they don't realise is, when the boards are dry its worth more to you, if you take boards for payment, make sure you have a buyer waiting a size that they need for a job they are doing.

If they turn their noses up at this one, again walk away, because they will never be happy with what ever you offer them, they are like our Yorkshire men, short arms and very deep pockets, only kidding, there.

Logg-saw bandmill, Stihl 088, Stihl MS880, Stihl MS660, Stihl 017, 018,  Husky 385XP, Husky 395, Husky 350, Echo WES 350ES, Echo CS 27T, Jonsered 2150 Turbo, Jonsered 111S, good old saw still going after more than 20 years hard service.

SwampDonkey

$125 a day wouldn't make much profit. I don't mill, but if it's my equipment and I gotta move off site, I gotta have a minimum of $300/day. So if they want more production than the 500 bf, they better be ready to tail and sticker boards. ;D I dunno what box stores your buying lumber at, but I can get my lumber alot cheaper at the sawmill, all kilned and planed. When it comes to buying hardwood at the box stores, they're asking $5-$12 a running foot, not board foot - kilned and planed.  :P
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brad_S.

The hardest thing for me to learn in business was to say the word "no". I charge an extra 5¢ a bdft. for stickering, and your sawing rate is fine. IMO, you have a complainer on your hands who won't be satisfied with anything you do at any price. Pass on this one.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Part_Timer

We charge .30 bf.  This includes cutting stickers for them.  If they want me to stack and sticker it for them also then another.10 unless their a good customer then we help for free.

At the size of those logs I'd be charging buy the hour.   Seems to me like you'd be spending all your time with rolling logs not cutting logs.
Peterson 8" ATS.
The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

bull

I wouldn't touch that job.... The whinning has already started before you even accepted the work

I won't touch custom sawing for less than .40 a bfd. I stack and sticker everything as it comes off the mill. "I hate Stain" !!!!

Remember the customer is always wrong, if they were right they would do the job themselves and have as much fun as we do !!!! 8) :D

VA-Sawyer

It was customers like that, that made me change over from charging by the boardfoot to charging by the hour. Apearently he thinks your mill must run on air. The high cost of fuel has raised trucking out of his reach, but he seems to think you can still saw for last years prices.
I would tell him .25/bf for sawing and $20/hr for your time stickering. If he doesn't like your rates, no problem, he can talk to someone else. Believe me, you really don't want him as a customer.
VA-Sawyer

jpgreen

Obviously trying to get over on you.  I just look at those people and smile with a big laugh when they suggest such a thing..  :D

Ask him for the name and number of the mill that works for 12.5 cents..  :D
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

WkndCutter

What Va-Sawyer said is spot on.  Guys like this made me go to an hourly rate.  Working the whole job of loading through stacking you are giving this guy a great deal at $.25 a bf.  I'd pass on the job and chauk it up to a learning experience.

SawDust_Studios

We get alot of jobs on construction sites. I get the same thing, we charge .30bdft and guys sometimes gasp for air when I say that.  I've had a few instances where we've cut at the same time the backhoe guys are still there, so I ask the homeowner.  Whats he charging you per hour? 

Its usually anywhere from $50-65/hr around here. I say, that is fine, I'll charge you $50/hr then instead of .30/bdft.  It works out better for me in the long run.  I have a $30,000+ machine and I'm paying 2 guys, what is the difference? Usually they back off about that time. ;)
Making Sawdust on a Woodmizer LT40SHD CAT 51 /WM Twin Blade Edger and WM DH Kiln

beenthere

I may have missed it, but is the BF measurement based on the log scale of the logs he brings to you (which is what I think it should be) or the BF scale of the pieces he picks out of the stacked and stickered pile that he thinks are suitable (meaning you get nothing if the logs are poor quality, and therefore the 2x's are low quality, and he doesn't want any of them)?  ???

And to me, the worst thing you could do would be lower your price when he whined, as it supports his thinking your price is too high. Lose this one, and you will be better off as others have suggested. He whimpereth too soon in the deal :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Fla._Deadheader


As I get older, I get harder to impress. This guy I would have laughed in his face. You are entitled to the same money as the Backhoe guy.

  Since you changed the way you price the job, I would stick with the Hourly rate as he didn't want to pay the bd/ft rate. Can't keep switching prices for this loser.

  Find another customer and don't look back.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Bibbyman

Quote from: badpenny on October 29, 2006, 09:12:56 PM
   ....When I told him .25 a bdft, he almost accused me of highway robbery, as "the circle mill last year only charged 12.5 cents".


My quick reply would be, "Then that's the place to take them." and the converstion would end right there.

We've done some stacking and sticking for a few customers and charged $350/mbf.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

SawDust_Studios

 
Quote from: Fla._Deadheader on October 30, 2006, 12:11:47 PM

As I get older, I get harder to impress. This guy I would have laughed in his face. You are entitled to the same money as the Backhoe guy.

  Since you changed the way you price the job, I would stick with the Hourly rate as he didn't want to pay the bd/ft rate. Can't keep switching prices for this loser.

  Find another customer and don't look back.

Believe me, we've seriously considered going to hourly for everything. I know alot of mills doing that now.  It used to be alot of the farmers and other customers around here knew what a bdft was and what they where getting in return. Not so much anymore, so you get these gentleman farmers and landowners that at least understand if you work 8 hrs, your paying me $400. 

BTW:  Sawing for that job came out to about $48/hr, so I saved him $2/hr and left him know it. ;)
Making Sawdust on a Woodmizer LT40SHD CAT 51 /WM Twin Blade Edger and WM DH Kiln

footer

I have started charging $70.00 an hour,$20.00 pr blade that hits metal, and $1.00 pr mile one way to saw on site. The hrly rate starts when the mill is set up and goes untill the last board is cut.  If I do any trimming, stacking, handling or whatnot it is the same rate. I used to charge $50.00 an hr, but with the price increases of everything in the last few years, it just seemed like I was just sawing to cover my expenses. I have yet to have anyone question the pricing, and have never had anyone ask me to cut stickers, let alone sticker their wood. I have helped load the wood on their trailer, or truck though.
I would't touch that job with a 10 foot pole for .25 a bdft. Not with a manual mill anyway.

millit

 :-\ i would lose this guy also tell him to buy a mill  :D try it see if he works for less. I charge 100 bucks to move it set up customere gets logs to mill i saw the lumber. put in piles (not Stickered) and charge bf of lumber sawed :o

solodan

Quote from: SwampDonkey on October 30, 2006, 05:28:13 AM

$125 a day wouldn't make much profit. I don't mill, but if it's my equipment and I gotta move off site, I gotta have a minimum of $300/day.

I'm right there with SD, we all live in different areas and cost of living reflects how much you can afford to work for. I may work for $300 a day if I had nothing else going on, but for me I really want to make $500 a day. I think you know what you are capable of producing in a day, and base your prices on how much you are willing to work for.

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