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Alternator troubles on old LT40HD

Started by woodrat, October 25, 2006, 12:16:51 AM

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woodrat

I have a 96 LT 40HD with a Kohler 25 and a delco alternator, and earlier this year I started having charging troubles. I went to the NAPA store with my old alternator and was sold a replacement that fit just fine after changing the pullet and fan. It is a 106 amp unit. But, it wouldn't charge. So I went online and found that the usual delco alternator was wired differently than the one that I had taken off the mill (now returned as a core and long gone). So I wen to the wrecking yard and got a three wire plug off of a buick or something, found the wiring layout online, and wired in the other wire that I thought would be needed. Still no charge. So I call woodmizer and sure enough, typical of Woodmizer, their version of the delco alternator is different and they want about 65$ more than the NAPA one cost for the one that they use.

So, anyone ever run into this problem? Were you able to solve it with a NAPA alternator, without buying the WM version? I can't return my NAPA one now, so I hate to buy another alternator, again...
1996 Woodmizer LT40HD
Yanmar 3220D and MF 253
Wallenstein FX 65 logging winch
Husky 61, 272XP, 372XP, 346XP, 353
Stihl 036, 046 with Lewis Winch
78 Chevy C30 dump truck, 80 Ford F350 4x4
35 ton firewood splitter
Eastonmade 22-28 splitter and conveyor
and ...lots of other junk...

amberwood

Woodrat.

I just changed over the alternator on the LT40..the WM unit was long gone from a prev failure and was fitted with a generic Bosch unit, as fitted to our domestic GMH product..exported to your part of the world as a Lumina. There appears to have been a plug and bracket change to suit this but no loom modifications. even the belt/pulley matched up!

Really it looks like they spliced the internal regulator plug from the car straight onto the WM/Lombardini loom. From memory the HT lead goes straight on. I will be up on site on Sat morning so can take a few pics and a sketch if you need it.

DTR
MS460 Magnum
MS250
DAF CF85-430
ASV RC-85 track loader

jpgreen

There's no reason why you can't get the Delco to work if wired properly.

You may have it wired correctly, but not enough initial rpm's to kick her in. Rev the engine up  and hold a screw driver on the back of the alt.  If you feel the magnetism pulling, it's charging. Sometimes these auto delco alternators have to reach a certain rpm before they work, once they hit that level, they will continue to work at the lower rpm.
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

Tom

The alternator light works as a tickler to initiate the charging cycle too. (I'm talking out of school because I fixed this problem with the help of an auto electrician)  If the light is burned out, there is no way for the regulator to know that the battery is calling for current.  The auto electrician wired a resister in the line when we couldn't find the light on that particular day.  I never replaced the light since the resistor worked.

Some of these other guys can explain what I am telling.  There is even a post on it a couple or three years ago.

jpgreen

I couldn't find the value of that resistor, or find one, so I don't have the wire hooked up.  Still works...  :D

I need to get one, and wire it in, cause what's happening with my alt I beleive is it's regulator is not working, or sensing the batt voltage properly, and it charges full out, which puts a tax on the engine, so I wired in a heavy switch, on the field wire, and when I run the debarker, or get into a heavy log, I just shut it off.

As soon as I feel the voltage drop on the battery a little, by slower lift and feed motors, I switch it back on.

This is backwoods, hillbilly engineering at it's finest..  :D

I bet if he revs his engine and holds a screw driver on the back of the stator, he'll feel that alt kick in, and once it does, it will stay in at low rpm.  This is also a proven hillbilly, theory..  ;D
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

Tom

Yep, you're probably right.

Go to an auto electric place and I'll bet you can get a resistor.  They might even sell you a little dc light, which is the original design anyway.  :D

woodrat

I've been suspecting that light as a problem, except that it does work. It is on, and the alternator is not charging, even when revved up. I'm going to see if i have any voltage off the back of that printed circuit board that the light is part of, when I go back to try the mill again today. I suspect the printed circuit, because that is all there is left to suspect! Really I'm kind of baffled, I don't see why it is not working either. There's just not that much to need hooking up.
1996 Woodmizer LT40HD
Yanmar 3220D and MF 253
Wallenstein FX 65 logging winch
Husky 61, 272XP, 372XP, 346XP, 353
Stihl 036, 046 with Lewis Winch
78 Chevy C30 dump truck, 80 Ford F350 4x4
35 ton firewood splitter
Eastonmade 22-28 splitter and conveyor
and ...lots of other junk...

VA-Sawyer

Typically on an AC Delco Altenator with an internal regulator, you need two small wires  in addition to the B+ wire ( BIG wire ). One of the small wires is for the light and the other one is 12V from the ignition switch to provide power and remote voltage sensing for the regulator. 
Look for a terminal marked F. Run 12V srtaight from the Ignition to the F terminal. Connect the light to the Terminal marked L. The other side of the Altenator light should also go to the ignition switch.  If the altenator isn't charging the L terminal is at a low voltage and the 12V coming from the IG switch through the light will light up the lamp to tell you it isn't charging. When the Altenator is producing power the L terminal is at a higher voltage ( almost 12V ) and with almost equal voltage on both sides, the lamp doesn't light up.
The third small wire in the plug should be a ground .
VA-Sawyer

woodrat

Got it all figured out today. Turns out it was a bad alternator! I tried everything and I knew I had it wired right so I luckily found my receipt from when I bought it, yanked it off and took it back to NAPA where they tested it and said it was no good. Set me up with a new one and now it's charging normally, something it hasn't been doing right for months. Unfortunately, in the summer I don't use it much so I was always attributing its problems to a dead battery from sitting around. I would charge it up, get through a small job OK and then park it again.

So, WM is basically full of it when they tell me that theirs is special and I need to buy it from them.

Thanks to all for the help. With the responses I had here I was able to verify that I did have it wired correctly.
1996 Woodmizer LT40HD
Yanmar 3220D and MF 253
Wallenstein FX 65 logging winch
Husky 61, 272XP, 372XP, 346XP, 353
Stihl 036, 046 with Lewis Winch
78 Chevy C30 dump truck, 80 Ford F350 4x4
35 ton firewood splitter
Eastonmade 22-28 splitter and conveyor
and ...lots of other junk...

Onthesauk

Have to believe that it's a little like computer support.  If everyone mixes and matches parts makes it pretty difficult for them to respond to any questions or problems.  Doesn't mean other parts won't work, just makes their job pretty difficult.
John Deere 3038E
Sukuki LT-F500

Don't attribute irritating behavior to malevolence when mere stupidity will suffice as an explanation.

jpgreen

Woodmizer's not full of it.  Their alternator is wired diferrently, with a couple of diodes.

Sparky can tell you exactly what they have wired, and why.  The reason slips my mind at the moment..  ::) :D
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

woodrat

Interesting. Well, the 105 Amp truck alternator from NAPA is working just fine now, so I wonder what it was about theirs that makes it so special. When I talked to someone at WM portland, i asked for a tech and got someone who really wasn't at all familiar with what I was talking about, couldn't answer any of my questions, and took hours to call me back. And then all he said was, yeah, ours is different and here's the price.

So, since I already had this one from NAPA, I was hoping to be able to make it work. And when I found my receipt, I realized why I hadn't kept the core.... it was a $60 core charge!

Anyway, it works now!
1996 Woodmizer LT40HD
Yanmar 3220D and MF 253
Wallenstein FX 65 logging winch
Husky 61, 272XP, 372XP, 346XP, 353
Stihl 036, 046 with Lewis Winch
78 Chevy C30 dump truck, 80 Ford F350 4x4
35 ton firewood splitter
Eastonmade 22-28 splitter and conveyor
and ...lots of other junk...

jpgreen

They don't have a handle on technical things in Portland.  You have to call back east, then be sure to get the right guy.
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

woodrat

Yeah, I've never gotten good answers from Portland. Sometimes I think I know more about the mills than they do. When I lived in Northern Cal, I finally started calling back east, and then I got good answers about 2/3rds of the time. I was just thinking today that I need to program the indiana number into my cell.
1996 Woodmizer LT40HD
Yanmar 3220D and MF 253
Wallenstein FX 65 logging winch
Husky 61, 272XP, 372XP, 346XP, 353
Stihl 036, 046 with Lewis Winch
78 Chevy C30 dump truck, 80 Ford F350 4x4
35 ton firewood splitter
Eastonmade 22-28 splitter and conveyor
and ...lots of other junk...

woodbeard

I had the alternator die on my lt30 a while back, it was just old.
I needed one the same day, so I got one from the parts store, along with a new battery.
It did not last long, and when it went, it took the battery with it.
Fortunately, the parts store replaced the battery for free, and refunded my money on the alternator.
I got a new one from WM, also questioning the high price, but it is still running strong.

jpgreen

I remember now...

Reason WM has their alts built differently is they need them to run at a high output all the time, vs an auto alt that doesn't put out full amps, I think about 75- 85%.

Also, when you shut the mill off there is still built up voltage that needs to go somewhere from the higher amp alts, and I guess it can blow the regulator and retifier.  They use a diode that auto's alts do not have for protection.

If you had kept your WM alt, a rebuild shop could have installed the same parts as I beleive they're all Delco parts.

Interestingly the way I have mine wired, when I shut the key off, it runs for about 2 seconds still, and uses up the extra voltage, and hense saves my regulator and retifier. 

This is also a perfect expample of backwards mountian hillbilly engineering, that in the end has worked..  :D

But then I could have it wired wrong, and it could blow any minute..  ;D  Will do more checking someday..  :o
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

woodrat

Interesting. Too bad the WM guy was unable to explain this to me, I might have been convinced to get the WM alternator. I guess I will try to set aside the $ to get one soon, and hope that i won't have ruined the parts store one by then. Still, when I break down in the middle of a job, I need to get going again NOW, not in a few days after WM ships me the part.

Why would a car or a truck not have the same issues with the leftover voltage? Could something be wired externally to solve that problem? I could live with 80% output probably, but I'd rather not fry the alternator, since NAPA probably will get suspicious if I return another one... :-[
1996 Woodmizer LT40HD
Yanmar 3220D and MF 253
Wallenstein FX 65 logging winch
Husky 61, 272XP, 372XP, 346XP, 353
Stihl 036, 046 with Lewis Winch
78 Chevy C30 dump truck, 80 Ford F350 4x4
35 ton firewood splitter
Eastonmade 22-28 splitter and conveyor
and ...lots of other junk...

Tom

I ran a NAPA alternator as a spare for a lot of years.   I also made good use of having auto electric shops around that would rebuild the alternator for a fraction of the cost of a new one.  Alternators and starters are two automotive parts I don't throw out unless they are thoroughly toasted.  I tend to keep switchs too.  With a little effort, most can be made to work again, at least long enough to get you through a rough spot. 

You know that toggle switch that controls the in-out of the moveable guide?  Well, they break inside and quit working.  A lot of times, they aren't broken, but have dirt or corrosion inside.  A few drops of Rust Reaper at the base of the toggle handle and work it into the switch will, many times, rejuvinate it.   If you can't make it work, just keep a spare that you buy from your local hardware store.

It also pays to make little notes of this kind of thing and keep them in the glove box of the truck, along with copies of the receipts of "life-time" warranties.

My wife even made me a duplicate copy of my Wood Mizer manual and I kept the stuff in there and behind the truck seat.   It had phone numbers and all kinds of stuff in it.

You can also jumper around that hydraulic solenoid to "get buy"  I have made a suggestion before about putting a light on the hydraulic motor for stuck solenoid problems.  It's in several old post and in the Knowledge base too, I think.


woodrat

Yes, I have all my old switches around as spares as well. Sometimes I've replaced one without knowing for sure it was the problem, and sometimes I have just been unwilling to throw away such a specialized part. I have the old forward/reverse switch sitting on the shelf and it looks like i could maybe clean it up and make it work again. Unfortunately, the core charge on the alternator was so high that I let it go, against all of my better instincts... :-\

I guess with that figured in I should have bought a WM part, but I would have been down for days waiting. Next day shipping doesn't exist out here in the sticks. Even though WM portland is only 100 miles away, it usually takes two days for stuff to get here.

Did you have any problems with the parts store alternator burning up the rectifier?

As for the hydraulic relay, it turns out that I have to go to the city today anyway, so I am going to find a new relay there, either from a parts store or WM. I will look for your posts about it though.

Thanks.
1996 Woodmizer LT40HD
Yanmar 3220D and MF 253
Wallenstein FX 65 logging winch
Husky 61, 272XP, 372XP, 346XP, 353
Stihl 036, 046 with Lewis Winch
78 Chevy C30 dump truck, 80 Ford F350 4x4
35 ton firewood splitter
Eastonmade 22-28 splitter and conveyor
and ...lots of other junk...

Tom

QuoteDid you have any problems with the parts store alternator burning up the rectifier?

No, I didn't.  don't leave the ignition switch in the run position when the engine isn't running though.  It isn't good for alternators.


Even if you find, what looks like, the right solenoid in town, it might not be.  Lot of those parts guy don't know about much but the picture in the book. That's why it's good to deal with Wood Mizer or someone knowledgeable like an auto motor rewinding shop. (even some of them  can get confused over the proper brushes).

woodrat

Well, this time I need to go to WM anyway, for a new throttle cable, which I KNOW I can't get in any other color but orange... :D

So I will probably get the relay from them.... THIS time anyway... ;)
1996 Woodmizer LT40HD
Yanmar 3220D and MF 253
Wallenstein FX 65 logging winch
Husky 61, 272XP, 372XP, 346XP, 353
Stihl 036, 046 with Lewis Winch
78 Chevy C30 dump truck, 80 Ford F350 4x4
35 ton firewood splitter
Eastonmade 22-28 splitter and conveyor
and ...lots of other junk...

Fla._Deadheader

 Talking with Ed yesterday, while traveling to Miami, we discussed that very thing. We use Auto Zone. They DO have the heavy Duty Solenoids, just don't know it.  ::) ::)

 First question::  What's it go on ??  Homemade Bandsawmill named Homey  8) :D :D :D :D

 We don't stock those items.

 Try looking for an early 70's model Ford.  ::) ::)

 What year ??????

 Move over, Where do you keep the Solenoids ?????  

 You can't come back here.

 Where's the Manager ??????

 Can I help you ???  Where do you stock the Solenoids ???  

 Why ???  

 Just bring me a few, PLEASE ???

 They had 3. ONE was for the firewall mount. It was RED=Heavy Duty.  ::) 8) 8)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

crtreedude

Hey Harold, you fixing to haul Homey down here?
So, how did I end up here anyway?

Fla._Deadheader

All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

sparks

The alternators on our sawmills are basic Delco alternators that can be picked up at any auto parts store. This is good for the 61 amp, 105 amp and the 140 amp. The 190 amp alternators are delco parts put together by a local rebuilder. The internal parts, regulator, diode trio and rectifier bridge are not automotive grade but can be orderd from any delco dealer. The numbers are on the parts. The 190 amp is the only one that you will have a hard time finding. The 190 amp automotive alternators do not have the heavier duty parts inside. FYI   Thanks all.
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

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