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seeking advice on an ethical delimma

Started by Robert R, October 23, 2006, 09:35:14 PM

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Robert R

Some of you know but must don't that my lovely wife is blind.  This past summer while I was away, she prepared and ate some food that should have been discarded.  She wound up in the hospital with bad food poisoning and an intestinal blockage.  Later we learned that our insurance is basically not very insuring and our portion of the bill is way above our capacity to pay at our current, existing debt level.  (Keep reading, I'm not seeking pity or for anyone from here to send me checks).

My plan for fixing this is to dump our truck.  Right now, we can get just what we owe on it and at least free up $520 a month to go for medical bills.  We could also dump the horse trailer but it is only a couple months from being free and clear so we will probably opt to keep it.  That would allow us to pay off our bills in 2.5 years.  I'm fine with that.

But here is the kicker.  As a blind person, she is "entitled" to receive blind pension from the state we live in in the amount of about $450 a month.  Every year, they try to get us to sign up and every year, we decline because we don't need the governments money to get by.  Up to now, we have always been more than comfortable.  They tell us we might as well take it as it will just get shifted to general budget if it isn't used and be wasted by the government but we have always felt that without a good need, we can't morally justify accepting it. 

At this intersection in our lives, I am being tempted to accept it for two reasons.  It will cut our truckless time in half (which contributes greatly to both of our enjoyment in life and the reason for the short fall is a direct result of her disability.  But I am not sure if this temptation is more the result of my selfishly wanting a truck back sooner because the truth is, we can pay those bills in monthly installments and be free and clear in 2.5 years getting by with no truck.  But that means no horse shows for her and no firewood or log sales for me farther than Molly and Ginger can get them delivered. 

I'm not sure what to do and I am also questioning the level of my interest in seeking this money as a legitimate need versus a motive to feed selfish self-centeredness and get a truck back sooner.  So I am looking for input.

As background, I know of no other blind person in my state (I am sure there are but I don't know them) who refuse to except this money as it is presented as an entitlement to elligible recipients.  If we chose to accept it, we would only do so as long as it took to pay off these medical bills and we wouldn't be considering it if it weren't fact that the bill situation we are in resulted from her blindness and not seeing the molded, discolored food.  Apparently with the high level of spicyness we like, it tasted fine.  I just don't know what to do.

Our church (I am a volunteer minister there) has offered to just make the bill go away but I cannot fathom allowing funds given through the church to be used for our personal expenses so I can maintain a truck that exceeds the value of that which I truly need.  I would feel very uncomfortable accepting that help in those circumstances.  I hope I am making since as I feeling rather adrift at sea here in a quagmire of different levels of gray as it pertains to right and wrong and the moral basis for the temptation to accept this government money.  Any input, either insiteful ideas or possibilities we haven't considered would be apprecieated and any due landblasting for willingness to be even temporarly suckle at the government sow will be humbly accepted.  I just don't know what to do but I know I am about 8 weeks away from possibly getting my truck repo'd because of chronic late payments over the last few months.  I'd rather dump it and take a loss if I had to than have a repo on my credit report.  Two years ago when we refinanced our farm, the bank was flabbergasted that folks as young as us had a credit rating over 800.  I don't want that screwed up but where should the line be drawn at struggling on our own to fix this mess versus being willing to accept some help for a program designed just for this.  I just don't know.

Sorry to unload my personal problems but I am at a loss, willing to entertain any ideas from any direction.

And if you are of the sort, I serious covet your prayers for my wife and I as we wreste with what God would have us do to resolve this mess.
chaplain robert
little farm/BIG GOD

Tom

Take the money and don't worry about the guilt.  There should be none.   Don't worry about stopping it because the debt is paid either.  Your State is offering it as an "even up", not a welfare.  The citizens want you to have it. 

Don't let pride get in the way.  It may not just be for trucks.  Children or family will benefit down the road.  You dont even have to tell anybody that you are accepting the money.  It's none o their business anyway.  When you get over the hump, bank it for another bad day.

I have the most respect for the blind and their willingness to take on the world.  Your State, making it a little easier, is admirable.  Give them the chance to be nice folks.

Bless you and keep on kickin'.  :D

Furby

Take the cash.
It's not a case where you are sitting on your butt counting the $ when you could actually be working.
The "even up" as Tom called it, is as I see it as well.

Tom_Averwater

The "government" is you and everyone else in the United States.  We offer programs to assist those in need because we are a nation comprised of individuals from various backgrounds and origins who have worked to create the great country that we enjoy today.  This "government program" is not a handout, but rather a helping hand for those who need it.  It allows all of us to indirectly help those in need.  The fact that your church is so willing to help you demonstrates their loving caring personalities.  Giving is one of life's greatest pleasures.  When you refuse the help of those who are able, you take away the heartwarming abilities of those who care and love you.  Allowing others to assist us in a time of need can be very difficult and often hurts our pride.  I do not believe that God sees this as a handout, rather a way that he can help you (as well as others).  
He who dies with the most toys wins .

Mooseherder

Take the money.
Everyone goes thru rough patches every now and then and can use some help.
Nothing wrong with that my friend.  If we can't help each other out when someone
gets ill, then we aren't worthy of considerations from up above. Besides,
you need the truck to haul your logs and bring your lovely bride to the horse shows. ;)

TArmstrong

Take the "assistance" without a second thought. That's exactly what it's there for, and that will be my prayer tonight.

brdmkr

Robert,

Robert I think you have 2 viable options.  I for one, think you should consider the assistance from the state and from your church.  The church is to be known for their love toward one another.  From your post, it sounds that you are a hard worker, are active and supportive of your church, you likely take tithing seriously, and you likely have given to help others.  Consider that you may be taking an opportunity from someone by not allowing them to bless you.  If your church is willing to help, they obviously recognize that the events that have taken place are an opportunity for them to serve.  I have not been in your position and I can't say that I would feel any different than you, but if I were in your shoes what would you tell me?

Regarding accepting the money from the state... I agree with the prior posts.  There is nothing wrong with doing this.  I doubt that anyone who pays taxes would have a problem with a portion of their money going to meet a real need.

Finally, I don't think I would sell anything that I had a use for, just because something less would do.  If you had no other options, then I would say that this may be the only route, but you should  not feel bad about keeping your truck and trailer.  I might think otherwise if your purchase of this truck went beyond your means to make ends meet.  Obviously, this is not the case as you seem to have been making it just fine until the illness. 

Perhaps you could discuss these options with your church leadership and allow everyone to prayerfully consider the best solution for your situation.  Seek godly counsel and take the path that you are led to follow.

One other thing, it sounds like you have a great church family.  I'm sure you already know that.

I will pray that God will lead in your decision.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

pigman

Take the state money, that is what it is for. As for the church money, that is for you and the church to decide.
Our state has an assistance program for the blind. Some do abuse it, but that should not stop the legitimate persons from receiving it. A while back I knew of a young able bodied "blind" man that would drive his sister to the government office and let her lead him into the office after they got there.  Some of us doubted his blindness. ::)
Bob
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

Jeff

I agree Robert. I can't add anything to other then what has been said. Its not a handout Its a hand reaching out. Grasp it.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

WH_Conley

As a taxpayer (different state) I see enough money handed out to people that don't need it that it would make me feel better to know someone in your situation, a legitimate need, was receiving something. TAKE THE MONEY. As far as the truck, if you are using it to make money to support your family, firewood and log sales, I don't really see how to justify getting rid of it, probably take even longer to get back on your feet. Ifyour church wants to help, they must see a legitimate need. These people must feel that you have earned some help. If you feel you must, have a discussion with them and tell your feelings and listen to theirs.
Bill

Fla._Deadheader


By all means, take the assistance. Everyone gets down, some worse than others. It's a program to assist, not to be abused by others. Your situation meets that assistance requirement.   Good luck in whatever you decide.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

beenthere

Thanks for letting us know, and share in your dilemma. I agree with the others, that the money is there to help people like your wife, you, and the family. You have the need and I think the responsibility to do the best for her with what is available, and that assistance is available. Please use it. There are abuses to any program, as we probably all know about, but IMO your need is not abuse of the system.
We keep you in our prayers and wish you the best getting over this bump as best you can. Keep in touch.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

isawlogs

  I will spare you with my typing ... take the assistance . Your claim is more then justified . Use it and keep the truck to help keep you going .
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

red

Hi Robert

There must be many more things you can use the money for besides paying for medical bills

and you should definitely keep your truck !

You and your family will be in our prayers

Red
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

jack

Robert,
Its a tough delima, but in the bible it says that the ox must not be muzzled, adn the pastor his fairshare.   Remember,  if your congregation supplies you richly about and beyond your wildest expectations, then THANK THEM.  They are doing what God has put on their hearts.....What man is to be thankless to the God that is supplying there needs.?   OUr pastor has a daughter with a terminal illness,  he has never asked for a thing,  but he has never needed to buy a car.  one is Given to him for his use.  no one but the giver and he knows who it is.
It should remain that way....left hand not knowiing what the right hand is doing.  NO strings attached.  

As for the State money,  Someone made a Entitlement to support the BLIND.....it isnt a sympathy chest for the un able.  It was designed to help support the blind when in cases their city might not have the resources available for her extra support.  SO the Entitlement was established.  TAKE IT...and in when the time comes and you dont need it then release yourself from it.
As for the truck.  you use it for your work,  and recreation.  I bet you have even used it to help move ppl too?  If you feel that your to give up the truck.....pray about it....if you have peace about giving it up....then do so......if not...then dont.
but dont strain and worry about it...Phil 4:6-8   It really doesnt make a bit of difference if you drive a new or old truck....be at peace with your decision.
how will you pull that trailer without your truck?  
i would get a new insurance guy too.
Take care,
Jack
GRAB life by the Belly fat and give it a twist!!!!!

Went from 5 employees to one, sorry to see a couple of them go.  Simplify life... building a totally solar run home, windmill pumps my water, and logs keep me warm.

treecyclers

Quote from: Robert R on October 23, 2006, 09:35:14 PM
As a blind person, she is "entitled" to receive blind pension from the state we live in in the amount of about $450 a month. ...we have always felt that without a good need, we can't morally justify accepting it. 

And if you are of the sort, I serious covet your prayers for my wife and I as we wreste with what God would have us do to resolve this mess.

Robert, you have my prayers with you in your journey, and those of my girlfriend.
In my own humble opinion, the state offering you the "disability" stipend is the Lord's way of helping you and your lovely wife, and it's come around many times for you.
The funding will help you continue to do the good things you do in the community, help you keep your truck and operations moving forward, which I suspect is what you're here to do in the first place.
The ethics aspect is pretty moot from where I sit. It isn't a handout, at least not from my perspective, it's a helping hand.
You work very hard every day, going above and beyond for everyone whose lives you touch, and ask for so very little in return.
May I assume that your wife doesn't work?
Then think of the state stipend as her "paycheck" for making her own contribution to the community, and making it a better place for everyone there.
Put those funds towards the medical debts, and when they're paid off, set the funds aside for a retirement fund or a slush fund.
The Good Lord is always there to pick us up when we need it, and he works in very interesting ways as I have found myself.
God Bless!
SD
I wake up in the morning, and hear the trees calling for me...come make us into lumber!

Ianab

Take the Govt money, it's there because someone back when common sense was common noticed that blind people had extra expenses and less earning power and actually did something about it.

As was mentioned already it's part of the taxes everyone pays, and no one is going to begrudge some of it being payed out to someone who actually needs it (for a change)

If you need to accept help from your church as well, well you can look at that like this. Most people give money to the church because they will 'spend it helping people'. Right now you are the people who need helping, I'm guessing you have given money to the church before, and will do so again in the future. If one of your fellow parishiners was sick / in an accident and needed help you wouldn't mind your donation going to them either.

So .. take the ENTITLEMENT, and use it to pay of the bill. If you accept some moeny from the church, look at it as a loan, pay it back from the later govt payments if you wish. After that you could allways just give away the entitlement to some needy cause.......






Like me   ;D :D

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

DomR

Robert,
Bless you and yours.  It is evidence to me that yours is the type of family that the aid is meant for so you should take it .  If you find at some point in the future you do not need it start saving for a rainy day.  The time of need may not be yours but a neighbor, family member or friend and you can help them out in the same way.  We have all fallen at some time and the amount of time we spend down depende on how much help we need to get back on our feet.  God has given you a hand for each arm, all you need do is hold on long enough to stand on your own.  Also talk to a local banker and let them know your situation.  They may be willing to refinance and delay payments for 4-6 months so that a mar does not appear on your credit.  I have done that once during a messy divorce and actually paid the loan off before any payments were due.  God answers, all we need to do is ask.
God Bless

Dom
life is a merry go round and I'm getting dizzy

CHARLIE

Robert, I agree with the rest of our members. Take the assistance money from the government and keep your truck. You are truly in need and that's what it's for. It's a helping hand.
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

logwalker

Robert,
I would also look at this from a different angle. The hospital may be negotiable about reducing the bill to the same amount that they would pay the insurance company if you were fully insured. The sad fact of the matter is that the insurance companies negotiate with the hospitals and only pay about 60% of what they charge the person coming in without insurance. I know you said you are insured but I am thinking there might be some room in that bill. I would sit down with the administration and firmly demand that I pay no more than what a large insurer would pay. often times they will reduce it immediatly. This may not apply in your case but It came to mind. As far as the govt. money goes I would take it as long as you needed it. I do admire your convictions on this matter but the money is there to help you when you need it. Good wishes and my thoughts are going out to you and your family. Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

BBTom

Robert,
I do not see any ethical dilemma.  I see no way that your ethics would be compromised by accepting what has been offered.  The only thing compromised would possibly be your pride.  I believe the good Lord asked us to be humble. 

How would you feel of your heartfelt contribution to a need was turned down?  I have the feeling that you have helped others much more than you admit. 

You and your lovely wife have my prayers. 
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

Sprucegum

I believe the advice is unanimous and has been expressed with respect for you and your situation.
Please do not hesitate - go get that money!

rbhunter

Robert

I have seen what you have written and can understand what is going through your mind to some extent. I have been in charge of benevelonce at my home church before I had to move to Missouri. The church helped several people during the time in which I was in charge of making the decisions. I viewed this money as Gods money and tried to do what he would have me to do with it to help people.

If you look at the book of Acts the early church was selling possesions to help each other. I truly believe that if you are active in the church and the church wants to help you should allow them to help. The bible states we should share with our brother in need.  I would say you are a brother in need and this could allow others who God has blessed to follow what God has commanded and share with you. If you let them pay the full amount or a portion of it, I think it will benefit those in the church to be able to help.

If you do turn down help from the people in your congregation make sure it is for Godly reasons and not for personnel pride. Think about the enjoyment you receive in being able to help someone and the frustration when you have to set by and watch someone struggle when there is something you could do to help but they will not allow you to.

I would urge you to talk it over with the elders in your congregation and to see what they have to say. They are the shepherds of your congregation and should be able to help you make a decision.

Randy Brown email robert63_hunter@yahoo.com

"Said the robin to the sparrow, I wonder why it must be, these anxious human beings rush around and worry so?"
"Said the sparrow to the robin, Friend I think it must be, they have no heavenly father, such as cares for you and me."
author unknown. Used to hang above parents fireplace.

thecfarm

I would opt for the penision.We all need help over the rough times.Nothing a matter with accepting help.Sounds like to me you need it.Good luck.We are all here for you.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

mike_van

Robert, the world needs more people like you.  You've carried the load long enough, I feel you should take whatever  assistance that will help you & your family. Someday someone else will need it, and i'm sure you'll be there to help them. 
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

Don K

I can't add much to what has been said already. There is no question what you should do. Take the money, no one will think less of you. You seem to be a man who serves and loves God and puts him first in your life. If the church wants to help, allow them too. I'm sure you would not hesitate to do the same if it was someone else and you probably already have.Pray for God's guidance and He will show you His will. I will be praying for you and your wife through this.

Don
Lucky to own a WM LT40HDD35, blessed to have a wife that encouraged me to buy it.     Now that\'s true love!
Massey Ferguson 1547 FWD with FEL  06 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4X4 Dozer Retriever Husky 359 20\" Bar  Man, life is getting good!

red

Just to survive these days $450 does not go very far

there may also be some other services you are entitled to that you have stayed away from in the past  maybe even community  groups for people with disabilities   

people in the same situation  that are brought together  and grow

Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

breederman

Robert,
  Nobody will think ill of you and your wife for taking the money from the state, it is for people with legitimate disabilities, and she certainly qualifies.  As Jeff said a helping hand has been offered. Some times our pride can get in the way, several years ago our family went through a very rough patch and my wife accepted a few hundred dollars from our church to buy groceries with.  I was livid.  I was also wrong, she had did what needed to be done to feed our kids and the church fund was eventually repaid several times over. 8)  Perhaps you could let your church family have the joy of helping you out now and tithe it all back with the government payments?
Together we got this !

tcsmpsi

Robert,

As a most unwilling taxpayer, you have my most sincere permission and blessing to TAKE the money.  Please.  I know you won't waste it on a bunch of frivolities and I would much rather see it go to something positive.

Just the fact that it creates an ethical dilemma for you, is a great deal of 'proof'.
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Roxie

Once upon a time, a very pious man was caught in a flood.  A truck driven by the National Guard drove through flooded streets and the men yelled, "Get in the truck, you'll be saved."  But the pious man said, "My God will save me."  The water got higher and the Coast Guard came by with a boat.  They threw out the line and said, "Grab the line, you'll be saved."  The man replied, "My God will save me."  Then the water was to the roof line, the pious man was on the roof when an Army helicopter hovered over.  They dropped a basket and yelled, "Grab the basket, you'll be saved."  The man replied, "My God will save me."  So, the man drowned and went to heaven and upon seeing God, said, "I prayed for you to save me."  God replied, "Look, I sent a truck, a boat, and a helicopter." 

Don't refuse God's blessings .... they come to us in many different ways.
Say when

rbhunter

Roxie I like that story and believe it is true. God uses different means to answer prayer.

There was once a boy on a playing on a roof. He slipped and started to slide down the roof and became scared. He said a quick prayer "God please help me". About that time his pants caught on a nail and stopped his slide. He said "never mind".
"Said the robin to the sparrow, I wonder why it must be, these anxious human beings rush around and worry so?"
"Said the sparrow to the robin, Friend I think it must be, they have no heavenly father, such as cares for you and me."
author unknown. Used to hang above parents fireplace.

KENROD

  I agree take the state money, that's what it's there for.
Also, strongly consider taking the help your church has offered.
When you get your bills paid you can help do the same for someone
else.

              :) What comes around goes around. :)

jerry-m

Robert,  I cain't say it any better than what has already been said.

Your wife deserves the money. It is there for her and her needs.
Take it for her... Its her money not yours...


My prayers are with you also,   Jerry
Jerry

asy

Robert, I totally agree with everyone else so far.

If you are honestly entitled to the government payment you SHOULD take it.

Let me put it this way, if the government came to you and said "You only have to pay half the tax you did previously, to compensate for the extra expenses and loss of income due to your wife's alternate-ability" would you say "No, thanks, I'll keep paying the higher tax"?

That's what this amounts to. It's TAX dollars going to where they're SUPPOSED to.

Some of it is YOUR TAX DOLLARS. Whether current, previous, or future, they are your tax dollars too.

I'm sure you would not begrudge someone else in the same situation drawing the same funds. Would you???

As for your church, well, I'm not a church type person, but I must ask you, Who are you to refuse to allow these people, your church family, from feeling good about something they want to do???   ;)

If it was someone else at your church, someone else who does things for the community, and who really needed the money came to the attention of the church, you'd vote to help them out, wouldn't you???

Look, if you are really concerned, maybe take a good mix of the suggestions:

1: Go negotiate with the hospital, there IS profit built in to their fees, and a lot of it. See if you can have that reduced and pay them a fair but reasonable amount.
2: Take the funds from the church, with thanks. See this as an interest free loan (if that's how you want to do this).
3: Take the government pension. PERMANENTLY.
4: Use the pension, in part, say maybe 20% of it or such, to slowly pay back the church's 'loan'.
5: After the loan is repaid, use the pension to make your, and your lovely wife's, lives just that little bit easier.

And, if you truly believe in God, Stop waving the bloody helicopter away.

asy :D


Never interrupt your opponent while he's making a mistake.
There cannot be a crisis next week. ~My schedule is already full..

Bill

Robert

I agree with logwalker - the big insurers do regularly pay only 60% so why not you. Tell them they will accept that from you too.

Church -v- govt is a tough one. In the way old days we relied on our family, friends and church. Now the govt is involved but I look at it thusly: the govt will give a body a big tax deduction for ( you fill in the blank ) and the person ends up paying less taxes. Think of this govt money as a legitimate tax deduction and you're getting the refund. Its really the undeserving that outa feel guilty about taking public funds  -  not you.

As far as the Church's money - well when you have it you can give them donation(s) - they are there to help people in need.

Hope all goes well for you and yours


Patty

When given the opportunity to help a friend in need, most of us will gladly pitch in to help. That gives us the chance to feel real good about ourselves. Give your church the opportunity to help, it will make them feel good. As far as the government help.....well I see it as a small refund for all the thousands of dollars you have paid in. Take what they are offering and get that truck paid off after you have taken care of the hospital bills. When all the debt has been paid and your life is back in order, perhaps you will be given the opportunity to help a friend in need, and you will feel good that you are able to help.

As someone mentioned earlier, you may want to go have a discussion with your insurance agent for selling you such a lousy policy and putting you into this situation to begin with.  >:(    He at least owes you an explanation.
Women are Angels.
And when someone breaks our wings....
We simply continue to fly ........
on a broomstick.....
We are flexible like that.

DanG

All I can add to this is one more vote to take the money.

36-0
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Bothy_Loon

37 - 0
That Robert seems way too nice a man.
Hope your wife is OK now.
Bothy Loon

thurlow

38 to nuthin............you see a pattern developing here?  I've only been hanging around this board for about a year, but it seems most folks who frequent these forums are working/taxpaying citizens.  I think there would be no hesitation in condemning anyone looking for a free ride or trying to take advantage.  At our little (country) church,  the times when we all come together with one mind and feel best about ourselves is when we help out our fellowman.  Don't deny your church members the opportunity!  As far as the gov't help, it's a no-brainer;  accept it.
Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

dave7191

 Made that 39 to nothing  the one thing I 'd been thing off  was when you and yours don't need the state money use it to help the church and other folks in need and use what is neeed for yourselfs that is what it was given for you sound like a hard work  folks that have a little bad luck i would bet their are very few of use on this list that haven't some hard times and had to take a little help

rebocardo

Take the state money!

I can only speak for myself. I don't mind my tax money being used for blind people, people
crippled in a wheel chair, war veterans without limbs etc. Because it is still almost
impossible for most of those people with these type of injuries to make it on their own or
earn anywhere near even poverty level. To me, this is a worthwhile government expenditure and it does not even come close to level the earning playing field, it simply helps people survive at a higher level.

I worked helping a blind guy out for a while and everytime I felt bad about my situation all
I had to do was look in the mirror and be glad to see a reflection and not have to depend on
people to take me food shopping or be easy prey for street thugs.

So, take the state money and use it was long as your wife is blind, when she is no longer
blind, do not take the money. The citizens of your state determined that would be a good use of their tax money and I agree. SHE can accept that guilt free.

As for the church helping, that is up you. The only reason we were able to stretch our
budget and move into our current house (and keep it) was because of time, money, food,
professional services, etc. people donated to help us start over. The church even gave us
money when my wife was very sick, had an operation, and was out of work and unable to care for the four kids (now have five) so I had to stay home too.

As a pastor, minister, or other position in a church you never want to even give the
impression of fleecing the flock. Which was Paul's point of doing his tent making and
providing his own way for two years in his own house/apartment.

> possibly getting my truck repo'd because of chronic late payments over the last few months.

As Christians we frequently forget God's good advice about usury and to avoid it. Of that, I
am guilty too. God does not want his servents in debt to Satan. Ditch the truck, pay off the
loan, and have good credit for things directly related to your homestead. Use the $450 a
month to save up for a $1200 truck. Then use the $450 a month to have a good reserve
($10,000) in the bank and then start using it to pay down your mortgage and bills.

What I would consider acceptable is after you sell your truck, asking if anyone in the
church had a free truck they are not using or one that you could buy on terms such as $100 a month. I do not see how anyone could object to that.

re:horse trailer
They hardly ever come up for sale here locally and when they do, they are beat up pieces of
junk. I would say since you have at least two horses, hold onto the trailer because if you
own a horse and it gets sick, you have to transport it even if you borrow a truck to do it.
It is not as easily or cheaply replaced as a truck.

Last of all, but, not least. Go to this website

http://www.biblegateway.com/

set to NKJV

and search for "usury"

Don't take a man's word or your own decision on the best course of action, read God's word, then go to bed and think about it for a night or two while silently (why give Satan an advantage by praying outloud) asking for guidance. Pray with your wife and be of one accord.

Proverbs 13
Psalms 119:33
Ecc 12:13

Robert R

I have to say, the first time I read all these replies, I had to walk away and regain my composure before I could reply.  Thank you all for your support, including the numerous private replies as well.

The truth is, it does boil down to a pride issue.  When she was in the hospital, I got scolded by her mother for not being there when she showed up to visit.  Of course, I would have been there but I was across town at another hospital visiting someone else in far worse shape (and yes, I went with my wife's blessing).  After she was home and word got around church that she had been sick, an older lady I deeply respect really read me the riot act about not calling for help.  All I could think of at the time was "I'm the chaplain, I help other people, not ask for other peoples' help".  Bluntly put, that is sin on my part that I need to deal with (Thank God for Grace). 

We are going to go ahead and accept the government money, at least for now.  We will see what we feel about it after the debt is cleared.  As for the truck, we are going to have to part with it.  I've (wrongfully) grumbled about folks using food stamps and driving better vehicles than me.  I can get by without one, at least temporarily and then replace it with a more modest one when all the other things that seem to add up so quickly are taken care of. 

Again thank you for the advice and most of all, for the prayers.  We both do appreciate it.
chaplain robert
little farm/BIG GOD

Quartlow

make it ,,,41-0? If my counting is right.

Take the the state money and run, it may not be there in two years. The way our government works you never know.
Take the help from the church. Don't worry your turn will come to help out the church and you know you will  ;)
Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

pineywoods

Make that 42 - 0. I agree completely with these posts. No ethics involved.These are helping hands being extended to you, embrace them. I would like to add something from a slightly different perspective, but first a little background. My wife is severely disabled due to a nasty stroke 6 years ago, cannot walk without a cane. A while back she laid the cane down to reach for a water hose, fell and damaged a hip so badly it had to be replaced. read massive medical bills, poor insurance coverage, long and painful, never complete recovery. Like your wife, she would qualify for some assistance, but again like your situation, we prefer to pay our own way, which thankfully we have managed to do. Now here's the kicker, which I sense may be true for you. I can't help thinking, if I had been there with her, this wouldn't have happened. It's a difficult thing to understand unless you've been there. It can eat away at your very soul. In my case I don't think I would have ever come to grips with the circumstances had it not been for the love and support of my church family.
You have the same available to you, if you need it, use it.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

konrad695

43-0  Accept the state money.  Set up a payment plan with the hospitol for the amount of the state funds.  When everything is squared away you can deposit the rest.  If you feel guilty about still getting the money when the bills are paid then just pass it on.  A good accountant should be able to set up a scholarship for whatever you want.  This way you can lower your burden now and help someone else later.  My thoughts are with you and your wife. 

Faron

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

Riles

44-0-1.  I'll take the position that it doesn't matter what you do. You've got your head on straight and will come out of this in better shape than ever before. The best thing to come out of this for you is a little tweak in your perspective on life. Should make you a better chaplain.
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

farmerscotty

Robert,  I understand your determination to take care of all this yourself.  I applaud that very much and I do understand where you are coming from on this.  What I think you are missing is the big picture on part of it.  I personally think you should take the money from the state for you wife.  But, that is not what I want to address.  I am a Christian and will help others as much as I can, we are suppose to because the bible tells us to!  Being more Christ like brings us closer to God in our everyday walk.  The point I want to make is this.....from previous experience.   Ok,  here goes!   Christians should accept help from other Christians or there church.  Your church is your family and they want to help you thru a troubled time.  Now I would say you have a troubled time, and it is NOT up to anyone else to judge your trouble.  What is important is that a blessing is recieved by the help and a blessing is given to someone that helps.  We get stuck on this "macho man thing" or something similar that says.......ok now I can surely take care of myself and my family by myself....... Or it is a sign of weakness that I cannot.  I sure don't want to show a sign of unorganization or weakness!  So I will just trudge along and take care of all my problems just me and hopefully GOD. 

Well I learned that people get a blessing from helping someone that needs help.  It is not like your going to be asking for help or food or money or hay, or a tractor or a chainsaw everytime you turn around.  You are being a witness to others by letting fellow Christians help you, by accepting the help of others.  One never knows who is watching or what many great things could come from something like this.  I

My experience was much simpler I have to admit, but the concept was the same.  I farm full time, raising alfalfa hay and beef cattle.  The man that helped me got sick (heart attack) so I had to do all my farm work by myself, (it was easier by myself).  To train someone would take time and tear ups costing money.  I had offers, but I didn't want stuff tore up!  The one thing I was neglecting was my yard, it was the last thing on the list to do!  I had couple of friend dumping there leaf mess in an old pond, they worked at this commercial.  Finally after weeks of pestering me I let them mow my yard for me.......2 or 3 or 4 times.  That is where I learned the blessing of receiving and giving of blessings.  They wanted to help me so bad and were thrilled to get the opportunity to do just that.  Me, I was being what I think is selfish by not letting anyone help me.  Whew!  I hope that helps your decisions. 

I wonder how many times that summer I was offered help and refused, bet it was 50 or 60 times.  I should have taken more of my church friend up and let them help another Christian.

Your brother in Christ

Scott
"A fool lives tomorrow reaching back for yesterday!"

sawguy21

I went through a rough time a few years ago, lost my job, my home, and finally had to swallow my pride and declare bankruptcy. I was loathe to ask for help solving my problems. One day I got an unexpected package by courier. Two couples I have known well for many years got together and sent me over $600, including some from their kids :o One couple was also in financial difficulty yet found the resources to help out. What do you say to friends like that?
My point is that we never know where help will come from. It is no sin to receive a genuine gift with no strings attached and the government services are there for people in your position. I hope you swallow your pride, accept what is offered and move on contributing what and when you can. That is what makes our society work.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Murf

Robert, you and your good wife take the money, she *deserves* it, it is after all, as was mentioned, just people helping people, the truly Christian concept of help.

While talking to those nice people at the Gubernmint about the 'pension' you should also inquire about medical coverage, those who can't work because of a condition like your wife's often qualify for either medical coverage, or at least help with big bills like you have now.

You won't know till you ask.  ::)

I'll keep you two in my prayer's, keep us up-dated.
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

ely

it does me good inside to know there are folks like robert out there in the world. thanks for sharing this.

rebocardo

Tithes were suppose to be used to not only support the Levites, but, to help the true widows (as Paul points out), crippled people, the orphans, the blind, etc.. The church was the government.

Our government has taken the place of the church providing for widows, crippled people, blind people, people with disabilities, travellers, and immigrants. God warns you from one end of the Bible that he judges individuals and countries by how we treat the disadvantaged and travellers inside the borders. When handing down the law and he says not to trip blind people I do not think the spirit of the law was limited to physical tripping.

Consider this:

"Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him"

This was related to the works Jesus was doing, but, imo it still holds true for individuals (that lady mad because you did not ask) and countries. People helping people showcases the power of God.

Have your wife accept it with God's blessing and praise him for living in a country where in God We Trust still means something and people follow his law without even knowing it.
:)

scsmith42

Robert, I am in agreement with the many eloquent replies regarding your accepting the monies available from both the state and your church.

With respect to to the question of accepting assistance from your church and the congregation, I ask you this simple question:  How effective would your own ministering be if people refused to accept your help or did not even make others aware that they were in need?  I think that we both know the answer is that you would be much less effective in carrying our Christ's work. 

Helping others is what makes us complete in life, and fulfilling Christ's mission.  To be a complete person, we need to be able to gratefully receive help from others as well as offer it in turn.

If you choose to forego your truck, make sure that it's loss does not inadvertently create a burden on your family. 

I have frequently seen the Lord's hand in many challenges that I have endured, and always when I have looked back there has been something that I needed to learn.  Perhaps the lesson that you are supposed to learn from all this is the one most painful of all - losing your pride.  Don't let it cause you to lose your objectivity.

I'll keep you and your family in my prayers.  Best wishes.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

LedlieLogs

Robert,
My first stab at this form. Been reading for months but never posted because I can't spell and get embarrassed. That bad pride again.
I might be old enough to be your dad but I still understand your feelings. In my youth I was not a good person. I was in prison when my only child, a son, was born. The lord laid it out for me that nite. Since then my time is spent trying to be a good husband and father. My son is now 19 and in his second year of college. Praise God.
I work full time in the printing industry. The lord led me to a non profit for childeren 9 years ago. We teach the kids about the great outdoors. Camping, hunting, fishing and the likes. When I came to Wildlife Action 9 years ago we had about 300 to 400 kids per year out to the property. I suppported most of the thing myself feeling that it was the lords work. We got to a point where we had to turn away kids because I could not afford to host any more childeren. A local man asked if he could help out with a donation. My pride would not allow that even though we are a non profit 501 c3 with an A2 charitable statuis. The goverenment said its ok but I could not do it. The man came out the next Saturday to the camp knowing that I would be there like every other Saturday. He brought his wife , his preacher and a group of kids to help around the camp. As we worked we talked about how many kids we touch through the camp. Got me feeling pretty good inside. Then the preacher talked to me about not accepting what the lord is sending to the camp in the way of money help. He asked me if accepting help in the form of money was any different then letting the group of kids do yard work around the camp. I just could not seem to get there in my mind.
At the end of the day the wife of the money man got completly angry with me and my pride and let me have it both barrels. She told me that I was not doing as the lord wanted because I was turning away childeren who needed this time outside with good christen leadership. Can you say wake up call?
After a good verbal butt kicking and a day or two to think it out I went to the man, his wife and the preacher and opened my heart, pride free to ask for help. They helped with a cash donation. However the real help was that they worked with me over the next couple of years to eat my pride and let the lord work out the details of how the camp made ends meet.
We are still broke at the camp. We host about 3000 kids every year, some day trips but most camp out over a nite or two. 230 grils for a week at girls camp this year, best turn out of the three years that it has been going on.
Once the lord got me out of the way he went to work full speed and thank god he did.
Don't sell the truck you need it. The lord wants you to have it. Take the goverment money it is owed to you and your wife, that is why the lord made it available to you. Please do not let pride stand in the way, that would be a sin. What ever you decide god will have the final say.
In closing don't be the man shiped wrecked on the desert island who asked the lord to save him. A boat came by and the man refused help because the lord would save him. A sea plane came by but was turned away because the lord will save me. A helicopter came to the island and was sent away because the lord will save me. Soon the man died,  and when in heaven asked the lord why didn't you save me? The lord said I tried three times but you did not listen.
The only reason I own a sawmill is to try to improve the camp with as little investment as possible. It is the lords doing not mine. He will lead but you MUST be willing to follow with out question. Even if he tells you to buy a chainsaw mill. haha
God bless you and your family, you are on the top of our prayer list
Ledlie
Wildlife Action, GA. A great place for kids. No lights, no phone, no motorcars, not a single luxury. Just the GREAT OUTDOORS and the reason I am learning to mill and build small log cabins.

ronwood

Ledlie,

Welcome to the forum. You did quite well with the post. Keep up the good work.

Ron
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

Jeff

Ledlie, from me as well, welcome to the Forestry Forum. DOnt let that spelling thang bother you one bit. We cant read any better then you can spell so that evens things right out. ;)  Again, welcome. :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

thecfarm

Ledlie,who said you can't spell?Do better than I do.Go at it.looking forward to hearing some more stories of your camp and sawing logs.Welcome to the forum.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Norm

Welcome to the FF Ledlie and thanks for a great insiteful post. :)

Don't let yourself be embarrased by spelling here, we all appreciate everyones posts no matter how they come out. My english teacher would be smacking be on the hands with her ruler if she saw some of my posts here. :D

asy

Don't fuss ovar yer spellung.

Nun of us kare.

asy :D
Never interrupt your opponent while he's making a mistake.
There cannot be a crisis next week. ~My schedule is already full..

Murf

Yup, if'n we kin figger out da yoopers, we kin figger out anyting!!!

:D  :D  :D  :D  :D

Welcome eh!!!!  smiley_hellow_im_here
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

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