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Log Furniture - Dead Standing Trees vs. Green

Started by FrankLad, October 23, 2006, 09:50:34 AM

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FrankLad

My wife and I plan to be getting some log furniture beds, tables, chairs and other items around the first quarter of next year.  We are more than likely going to buy these items and have them shipped, and do the finishing ourselves but I did toy with the idea of building some of the pieces myself.

I found that dead-standing timber is used in most all log furniture construction.  I then started to consider that there is no shortage of dead-standing pines around my parents' property.  So I went out yesterday with the axe and chopped one of them down.  Ok - maybe that was hasty.  I hadn't considered HOW LONG they had to be dead-standing...and I didn't know of a way to check for termites first (this one had termites).

So I have two questions now:
- What's a good test for when a dead-standing tree is ready to come down?  How dry must it be and how do you tell?

- What about using green timber?  Ok, this opens up more issues... for one, it has to be dry before you apply any stain/lacquer/varnish so what's a good way of drying it?  Air dry?  How long?  (That's subjective due to thickness, so let's take a 5" thick round piece for instance.)

And here's something else I started wondering...

Would it be a good idea to drill out the center core of some green pieces?  Seems that this would lessen checking (since checking occurs with the outside drying & shrinking around the inside/heart - correct?), it should dry faster, and also the piece should still be strong in most situations.  Does that make any sense?  It may be a silly idea but I wanted to throw it out there.

Looking forward to any feedback you guys can supply on this.  Thanks!


solodan

I make a fair amount of log furniture, some from standing dead some from dead fall, some from recently felled green trees. All of it works well, all of it has a different look.
You could build a solar kiln to dry some stuff out, or air dry it. I prefer to use dead fall that sits on dry rocky ridges, or lava caps. The wood gets very dry and is rarely rotten. However, it is usually severly checked, but, IMHO that is what adds rustic character. ??? Often I use green logs, and just get the surface dry before I sand and finish it. I usually wash anything green with mineral spirits, as it tends to dry the surface much quicker. I have heard of using anifreeze to dry the surface and stabalize the wood. As far as finish, I would personally never use any water based finishes. Oil based finishes allow the wood to breath better. By making it yourself you will save alot of money, as the true natural log furniture is usually very expensive. Lots of companies offer milled poles and put together what they call log furniture. I think you will also get a better respect for the trade, as each piece is different, and you will have to work with non semetrical lumber. Have fun.

FrankLad

Excellent feedback, Solodan!  Thank you very much!  No rocky areas here in southern Mississippi...and the humidity doesn't really help the dead-fallen trees.  Seems like green may be the way to go.  That solar kiln seems like it would be pretty basic, but do you have any tips on it?  Materials used, etc?

Quoteand you will have to work with non semetrical lumber

That's another thing I've been thinking about.  Seems as though scribe rule is the only way to go with irregular pieces but...I can't find much at all about it on the web, besides the fact that you "use a plumb bob and pencil".  :)  I'd appreciate any explanations you can offer on that!


FrankLad


Don P

There was a log home company back in the last century that bored out the center of their logs to speed drying and reduce checking, sounds like a good idea, I never heard more.
Drew Langsner (?) was a green furniture builder that wrote books and held classes in Marshall, NC

Lee Valley tools has tennon cutters for drills and several rustic furniture books if I remember right. I bought a 1" plug cutter recently that can make a 3" deep plug, or for that matter it could make a 3" long tennon the way I see it, it was $18, alot cheaper than most tennon cutters I've seen.

solodan

Quote from: FrankLad on October 23, 2006, 01:54:02 PM


That's another thing I've been thinking about. Seems as though scribe rule is the only way to go with irregular pieces but...I can't find much at all about it on the web, besides the fact that you "use a plumb bob and pencil". :)



I usually don't scribe my furniture, I usuallly make a mortise and tenon. I usually use the Log Man tenon maker that Bailey's sells. I like it because it gives  more  of a rustic connection then the tenon cutters that look like a pencil sharpener. One thing I really dislike about alot of log furniture is very rustic looking and bent branches and then a perfect machined tennon on the end ::) sometimes I will sand my tenons a bit to make it flow better and look more natural. Sometimes I do cut a tenon with a hole saw and then I cut the collar off with a hand saw. Then I scribe the shoulder and sand the edge of the shoulder till the two pieces meet up nicely. I like to use a v- notch saddle on parts that intersect at a right angle. it makes for anice tight fit. I prefer to do this freehand with a tape and a pencil. I have some photos in my gallery that may give you some ideas.

Raphael

Quote from: FrankLad on October 23, 2006, 01:54:02 PM
Quoteand you will have to work with non semetrical lumber

That's another thing I've been thinking about.  Seems as though scribe rule is the only way to go with irregular pieces but...I can't find much at all about it on the web, besides the fact that you "use a plumb bob and pencil".  :)  I'd appreciate any explanations you can offer on that!


 French scribe rule uses a plumb bob and pencil, it works well for irregular squared timbers.  Scribing round to round is a bit more complex and usually includes snapping reference lines 90 degrees length wise on the piece to maintain proper orientation...  Most Log furniture I've seen isn't truly scribed in the sense that pieces fit curve to curve rather they are tapered to their tennons such that only the tennon or it's shoulder makes contact which makes it a simple matter of getting your end of tennon to end of tennon or shoulder to shoulder distance correct and your mortices centered and at the correct height.

 The short story on scribing is you align the members going one direction in a plane (eg: the posts in a wall) in their proper orientation to each other.  Often done by blocking them (or their center lines) level above a full sized representation on the shop floor or up on saw horses in the yard for bigger pieces.  Then you block the intersecting members with each centerline the same height above the center of the first.  In this configuration the string of a plumb bob can act as your guide finding the points of intersection or a bubble scribe can be used.
 A level can also be used for the reference instead of the plumb bob both vertically and horizantally by setting up the proper off sets.  My "timber framing" experience actually started with what I now refer to as butt scribing (scribing by the seat of my pants ;) ) raw cedar for a landscape architect.  He was pretty good drawing pictures and leaving the construction details up to me.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

FrankLad

DonP:  I'm gonna see what I can find on Drew Langsner.  Thanks for the tip!

solodan:  Re:  Bailey's Log Man - is this the one you  have: http://store.baileys-online.com/cgi-bin/baileys/1868?product_sku=16500?

What's the biggest pieces you've used on it?  Can it handle 6" and larger stuff (ie. beds, etc)?

raphael:  Thank you for the description on scribing!  I'll re-read that a few times and hopefully it will sink in.  :)



solodan

Yes, that is the one I have. The largest guide is 2 3/4" so that is a good tennon for a piece about 4" or so. You could easily taper any piece down if it does not fit into the guide. Often on the big sticks you'll see a tennon cut with a hole saw, and then the collar cut off. This propduces a square edge shoulder, which can either be tapered, or scribe fitted. The only problem with the hole saw method is that you can only make you're tennon as long as the saw is deep. This is also true for a tapered tenon cutter that goes on a drill. With the Log Man you can make tenons as long as you want, so it is very possible to make through tenons.

metalspinner

I've seen a hand held power planer used before to make tenons on logs.  The log was held between centers and the planer was on a pivot.  As the log was turning, by hand crank I think, the planer was simply pushed down over the end to make the tenon.  The blades on my planer are 4", maybe.  That is plenty long for most things.  This may have been an article in American Woodworker a couple years back. I will flip through the stack to see if I can find it.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

FrankLad

As we are going to be building a limited number of items, what is the bare-minumum I would need if I were to approach this by hand?

Shaving horse and drawknife?

Stephen1

solodan, I was looking at your photo's and like the look of the finnish on your furniture. What did you use? I have seen table tops with a thick shinny finnish any ideas what this is. Your the 1st person I have heard from that has used the log man tennon maker. I have been thinking of buying one as I have to make some railings for my porch, and I also have some orders for some small tables to go with my benches. Do you have all the guides. Will I need the black guide to make railings?

Franklad sorry to steal your thread. I would think that you will also need a drill and bits of some type if you are going to make anything with round tennons.  If you go with square tennons a good chisel and hammer and your all set to go.
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

Raphael

... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

FrankLad

metalspinner:  Looks like there are many ways to go about it.  Hadn't heard of that one.  Thanks for the info!

stephen:  Chisel and hammer?  Then I'm good to go!  :)  Well...almost.  Still have to find some dry timber...or just go ahead and use green.  I worry about how it will act over time as it dries, though.

Also, I would like to see about getting a hatchet as Raphael mentions.

Raphael:  Which manufacturer do you recommend here?

Raphael

Quote from: FrankLad on October 24, 2006, 02:19:19 PM
Also, I would like to see about getting a hatchet as Raphael mentions.

Raphael:  Which manufacturer do you recommend here?

I suspect the best person to ask about axes is Northern Hewer on the Ask The Experts board.
  I really like the look and philosophy of Gransfors Bruks but have yet to pony up the $$$.
What I use most is an old coopers adze and something like the Gransfors Bruks carpenters axe w/ a ~20" handle...  This changes periodically as I have a small collection of old axe & hatchet heads that have accumulated over the last 20yrs of buying $5-15 barrels of old tools to get that one item.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

FrankLad

I have been looking at some of the Gransfors in the latest Lee Valley catalog.  I respect the craftsmanship that goes into them but I don't think I necessarily need anything quite that expensive at this point so I'll hunt around for something cheaper, even if it's already beat up.

I assume 1 or 1.5 LB head would be sufficient.    ?

Raphael

Somewhere in the 1.5lb area should be good, it's really a matter of what feels right to you.
You want an axe that hasn't been used as a hammer to the point it's developed a lip on the poll, a lip tends to scar up areas adjacent to where you are working.  Otherwise a flea market find is usually just as good as buying something new.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

solodan

Quote from: Stephen1 on October 24, 2006, 01:41:18 PM

solodan, I was looking at your photo's and like the look of the finnish on your furniture. What did you use? I have seen table tops with a thick shinny finnish any ideas what this is.


Stephen1,
I use oil stains, and oil based poly urethane. I sand  down to about 400 grit between coats, but only on the flat surface stuff. The natural edges, I sand to 220. After my final coat dries, I buff everything with 1500 grit and mineral oil/ mineral spirits. This will take the sheen down a step, but leaves a mirror like finish. I do have all the guides, and I think that the black guide is money well spent. I would also suggest buying the forsner bits Bailey's sells, they are cheap, but will work and save you a ton of money. A 2-3/4" forsner bit at my local hardware store was about $100 :o
Are you planning on putting a finish on the railing?  I like using Penefin on outdoor stuff, and if you put a clear top coat on, use an oil based spar varnish.

jpgreen

You have any pics of your latest work Dan?..  8)

We're gonna be in Reno for Thanksgiving. Maybe the snow may cooporate, and we can swing by and see ya..  :)
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

solodan

yeah, I just put some pics in my gallery. I finished up three mantels and a table this week, and I have two more mantels to finish tomorrow, and one to finish at the begining of next week. Also need to finish up two large signs for the ski area, but no snow on the ground, ??? and very little in the high country. The pass already closed, but it opened up again. So maybe you guys will be able to get down my way. :)

FrankLad

Well, we took a trip out to our land this past weekend to do some tree scouting.  One of our favorite trees on the property - our Turkey Pine (aka Spruce Pine)  had died a couple weeks back (Not long after the septic tank and 280FT of field drain were installed, so we assume root damage was the cause)  so we wanted to use it for something.  We went ahead and dropped the tree and cut it into 6ft and larger sections.

Also there was a Red Oak that had the top broken out after the storm.  It was pretty butchered and it would be awfully close to our future deck so we dropped that one as well.  With it, we cut sections out of the trunk for barstools, and we cut some of the smaller limbs to use for legs and braces.

So that was one of my projects this weekend - to make a 3-legged barstool.

Here are the main tools I used:

- Antique drawknife
- Cheap ($20+) hatchet purchased from local hardware store and sharpened w/ file
- 1" Chisel
- Dewalt DW130 drill and 1-1/8" bit

I don't yet have a shaving horse (planning to make a simple one based on some plans in a Foxfire book) so I had to jerry-rig something to keep the wood in place while I shaved off the bark.

That old drawknife worked very well, and I was able to shave the legs very quickly.  The larger section for the seat part took a bit longer due to the deeper ridges in the bark.

I then proceeded to cut the tenons using the hatchet.  This worked a lot better than I expected, and it went pretty quickly after I did the first one.  I cut the tenons for the legs square, and the ones for the braces round.

On the underside of the seat part, I marked my three leg locations and drilled holes with a 1-1/8" bit.  Then I placed the legs over those holes and and traced around the square tenons with a pencil.  Next, I cut out the square mortises with a chisel.

Once the legs were all set in place, I started cutting the round tenons on the braces.  I cut them round because they were small and I could simply drill the mortises in the legs.

The last step will be to level the legs.  I'll go about this by setting the chair upside-down on a level surface and using a line-level between each leg to get the angle and amount that has to be sawed off the leg bottoms.

Oh, and the detail I left out about how I determined where to cut and how much to cut...well, I just held them against each other and made pencil marks.  Maybe not the most scientific approach but it seems to work.  :)

Pictures forthcoming...


beenthere

FrankLad
Sounds like some good progress. Have you planned where the radial check is gonna be on the seat?  If not, you might want to make a saw kerf where you want it, rather than have it happen randomly.
If in the wrong spot, the comfort of the sittee might be comprimised.  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

solodan

Quote from: FrankLad on October 30, 2006, 10:24:28 AM

Oh, and the detail I left out about how I determined where to cut and how much to cut...well, I just held them against each other and made pencil marks. Maybe not the most scientific approach but it seems to work. :)


I  think that the most accurate tool you can use in building log furniture is your eyes. :)

FrankLad

Quotebeenthere: Have you planned where the radial check is gonna be on the seat?  If not, you might want to make a saw kerf where you want it, rather than have it happen randomly.
If in the wrong spot, the comfort of the sittee might be comprimised.

Hrm..............................  Good point you bring up there.  :)  Something I had NOT thought about at all.  HA HA!  I'm sure glad you mentioned this, though.  How would you recommend this be handled?  Not sure where would be the best place to make the mark.

Quotesolodan: I  think that the most accurate tool you can use in building log furniture is your eyes.
It's reassuring to hear that because I have a tendency to make things out to be more difficult than they really are.

beenthere

You don't want it through one of the leg holes, for sure. So one of three places remain
-- toward the back
-- toward the front
-- to either side, depending on the orientation of the three legs.

The leg holes already may dictate where the crack (s) will show up when some drying takes place (fast in red oak due to the open pores), so making the kerf where you want it other than at the leg holes, may soon be a good idea.

For strength, I might consider placing a dowel at 90° to the crack (kerf) after it opens a bit, just to limit any disasters from a heavy heiny and some dire consequences  ;D (might be able to attribute it to 'heavy' drinkin  :) ).
Cross-sections, especially red oak, don't have a lot of strength (tension perpendicular to grain) as it is a wood that splits easily (not like some other woods like elm).
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

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