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More Power! New Engine Questions...

Started by WkndCutter, October 12, 2006, 06:47:26 AM

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WkndCutter

I have a Hud-Son 28.  Nice saw for what I use it for but a little light on the power end when I get into a larger log, say 24 to 28 inches.  So a buddy of mine says why not put a bigger engine on it.  Right now I'm running a B&S Intek 8 hp and I can get a new B&S 12 hp Intek that will fit the same mounting and will also run at the same RPM.  The clutch has a 2.5" pulley wheel on it and the saw runs 16" wheels.  I can try to use the same clutch and the mill will have the same blade speed or I could replace the clutch and then I could also increase the blade speed a little.  I'm looking at going up to a 3.5" clutch pulley wheel.  I have not measured the blade speed of the saw now and I don't want to increase the speed too much.  The added HP would be nice and I think by increasing the blade speed a bit I would speed up cutting overall.  I can also get my hands on a 4" clutch but I think that will be too big and may not fit the saw.  I have some measurements to take this weekend and I figured I might as well give you sawmill gearheads something to chew on.  Any thoughts on this are greatly appreciated.

Andy

BBTom

I would start off with the same size.  Sounds like it cuts smaller stuff just fine, but runs out of juice on the big logs.  The HP increse will help that. 
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

WkndCutter

The plan is to do just that, replace the engine and see how the saw cuts.  I'll go on from there. 

Norwiscutter

I would go bigger than a 12 if I had the option.  You are talking about some big logs there that would slow down even my mill a bit. Maybe a 15 to 20 horse would give you better results.  Also keep your blade speed the same unless you know for a fact it is cutting too slow.  I believe that something like 5200fpm -6000 fpm were the desired range with speeds over that not helping. Someone will correct me if I am wrong on that...which is more than likely. :)
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

sawguy21

I would hesitate to throw that much power at a machine originally designed for 8 hp. You might find a weak link (or two or three) in a hurry. I am not familiar with the mill design, is there room for a V-twin? A 12 hp would be a nice addition, if more is needed, a bigger mill might be a better option. Just my .02cdn
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

bad_boards

my 28 has a 5.5 hp and my new b&s is coming sat
its 10 hp
make sure you have the correct shaft size as the bigger engines have a 1 inch shaft and the 5.5 and 8`s have 3/4 inch shaft

i found the correct size cast pulleys on an ebay site for 10 bucks

they offer 1 inch bore 2.5 and 2.75

there isnt alot of room under the blade

also , my saw has the blade in/out linkage not a auto clutch


http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-2-75-OD-1-Fixed-Bore-A-B-Cast-Iron-Pulley-Maska_W0QQitemZ230021380234QQihZ013QQcategoryZ26227QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem?hash=item230021380234

sawguy21

The 8hp and 12 hp both use 1" shafts so it should not be a problem. Just go easy until you get used to the new power :D
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

WkndCutter

Thanks to everyone for the replies.  As far as I can see the blade speed is around 2300 to 2400 FPM now as is.  (if my math is right)  If I move up to a little bigger driver pulley I will increase blade speed to 2700-2800 FPM with a 3" pulley and 3200-3300 with a 3.5" pulley.  I have enough room in the mill for the 3.5" but could also stuff in a 4" but that might be tight.  I think the manufacturer may have used the small 2.5" driver pulley to offset the 8 hp engine on a mill made to make a 28" cut.  That may be why the blade speed is so low from the speed given in a previous post on this thread.  The move up to 12 hp vs. a bigger engine say a 16 hp v-twin is the 12 hp engine uses the same mounting and is pretty much the same engine except the bore is a little bigger so it is an easy swap out.  I think the mill itself will handle the extra hp and I'll just have to get used to it and push slow at first.  Cost is also a factor here so trading in the mill for a bigger mill is not something I want to look at right now.  I can change out the engine for under $500.  This mill with more power will do the trick but I think some testing will be in order before I go and start cutting those big red oaks out in the yard.  Keep the thoughts and ideas coming as I will be keeping track of this thread and will make sure to take plenty of pictures when time comes for the swap and I'll be sure to make the post when I done. 

r/

Andy

Norwiscutter

Is it portable or stationary?  I would think that you could maybe look at getting into a 7.5 horse single phase electric motor for around that price range that would give you better torque than a gas motor. Just another option to consider I guess.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

willknot

Hi Andy, I know your gonna like the extra hp for sure and as far as your calculations are I come up with practically the same @ 3500 rpm which is around were they should run. I would definately go with the biggest pulley possible as a 4" drive is only giving you 3665 rpm far short of the optimum 5200 + rpm . All cutting tools have a cutting speed at which they cut with least resistance therefore I would try to get as close to what the manufactures recommend as possible. Good luck I know you will be happy! ???

Will

WkndCutter

Saturday I am taking the mill apart to make the final measurements including the blade clearance.  If all goes well I will have a new engine on order next week.  More to follow.

Andy

arj

My Hudson Oscar 36 has a 20 hp V twin, 
and I wouldn`t mind a few more horses when
I get a log over 18 or 20 inches
                                                  arj

WkndCutter

After a weekend of maintenance and looking over my mill I figured an update was in order.  I want to increase HP and Blade Speed.  The way it looks I will have to change out the band wheels to at least 18" or 19" in order to give me room to fit the new clutch for a bigger engine.  So now I'm in search of parts.  The engine I was looking at won't work due to the bearing it uses so I'll be looking for a new engine also.  I really want at least 12 hp but may look at any engine up to 16 hp depending on price.  The plan now is to increase the band wheels to 18",  replace the engine with a 12 hp or 13 hp model and a new 5" clutch driving a 4" pulley.  When this all comes together I'll also upgrade the blade guides.  This should increase my blade speed from 2355 fpm to 3768 fpm.  And an additional 4 hp.

bad_boards

if you bump up the bandwheels wont you need new , bigger guards?. the right and left and the center guards?


WkndCutter

I'm having new guards built anyway.  The guards are too light and create noise due to vibration and how they are constructed.  My task will be to make the right changes and look forward so I don't have to re-do something later because of what I do now.  That is kind of why I'm taking my time before starting this.  The bigger wheels will be easier on the bands, and give me more room above the clutch to the bottom of the blade.

Fla._Deadheader


It's also going to involve relocating the blade guides. This is quite a project you are attempting. Don't be afraid to ask for suggestions here. There are plenty of folks that remodeled or built from scratch. You ARE in good company.  8) ;D ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

WkndCutter

Its funny how a simple engine swap has turned into a mill rebuild.  I will definetly be asking for help when I get this going?  Right now I'm still in the planning phase and looking at whether this is going to be cost effective compared to getting a bigger mill.  For what I cut now I really like my mill.  Every once in a while I will get asked to cut logs that are just too much for me.  This is mostly too many logs not too big logs.  My mill is great for when I started but I would like it to have more power and cut a little faster.  I guess I have my work cut out for me.  I have a list of the things I want to change and How I would fix them.  I'll keep this post going and see where it takes me.  Engine, clutch, band wheels, guards and guides.  The saw head is also a little light so some extra steel to add weight won't hurt.  The bigger band wheels will also pull in the wheel center distance making the saw a little narrower and still use the same size blades.  Again, thanks to everyone for their comments and help.

Andy

Fla._Deadheader


Really seems to me that you would be way ahead to sell and buy something bigger-better.  ??? ???  You are getting a pretty hefty list of changes to be made.

  What brand of mill do you have ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

WkndCutter

I have a Hud-Son Oscar 28.  Its two years old.  I have it on custom built tracks on a flat bed.  Nice rig for what I do.  We are in the middle of buildiing deer posts from custom cut pine.  Its not free wood but the 6x6 x 14' legs would have cost alot more than the 2 hours it took to cut them.  You never know, a used bigger mill could be in order but spending $1000 to upgrade or lord knows how much for a used mill.  I'll keep an open mind about things.  You never know.

Fla._Deadheader


Don't know your metal working skills, so, just posted a heads up on upgrading. If you don't get everything pretty well lined up, you could pull lots of hair out trying to get the mill to saw.

  You are contemplating LOTS of changes.

  What is the cost of a new sawhead from Linn ??  That gets you all sorts of parts all lined up. Maybe just buy a new sawhead from Hudson and sell yours to someone wanting to get started. You already have the bed and track. ??
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

WkndCutter

The new band wheels will have to fit the bearings and shafts already on the mill.  Also the new engine will have to fit the existing engine mount.  The guides already are made to move so no problems there.  The guards are bolt on so I don't see any aligning problems and I think I can design them to be easier to use and to be more quiet.  Hud-Son doesn't make that model with a bigger engine.  I think I can make all the modifications for under $1000 and I'll have a better mill than the next grade up from Hud-Son.  If I go up to a bigger Hud-son then I loose my custom track and I might as well go up to a WM LT40HD and take advantage of hydrolics.  I don't want to spend tens of thousands of $$ on this.  Not yet.  I have very good metal working skills and engineering ability.  I hear what you mean though and I could see where this could get out of hand and I don't want to make my own problems with this mill.

Dan_Shade

I started off on the same thoughts you are on before upgrading.

I found the Hud-son to be somewhat flimsy, i don't know that the saw frame can take that much abuse, with the more horsepower + the bigger wheels?

why not go ahead and fabricate a new frame out of 2x2x.25 tubing?

I'd look at selling the 28, and stepping up to a bigger mill.  The Linn setup may get you pointed in the right direction....
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Dan_Shade

I'd give what you are doing a LOT of thought.

having logged in many hours and days of sawing with the 28, I know it pretty well.   12hp, is probably still going to be on the weak side.  my new saw has 25hp, and I even wanted more a few times this weekend, but 20hp, is what I would call a minimum.

I was spending all day sawing up what would be a 2 hour job, or less with a good saw.

why not just step up, make the improvements, get better guides, better up/down mechanism, maybe even some sort of hand crank head drive mechanism?  depending on how far you want to go, and your metal shop access, you can build up a nice mill and keep the track you've already built.

my dad has a nice metal shop, but he's 150 miles from me.  if I had one here locally, i'd have probably built my mill.  but i'm very happy with what I've got right now.

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

WkndCutter

Dan,

I was kind of hoping you were going to chime in on this.  The object here is to either upgrade or get a new mill.  I know what you mean by the amount of work on a 28 vs. what you have now.  I cut on a job with VaSawer once, his LT40 cut circles around me.  I may look into a better saw but until I find what I want I will continue plans to upgrade.  As far as building a better frame I suppose that will come down the pipe but not too soon.  If I follow through with the power upgrade the bigger engine will cause the clutch, guides, guards and wheels to have to be changed.  I will gain a 4 hp and +1400 fpm of blade speed.  The frame should hold up.  I still have to find parts and see what this is going to cost me.  I'm sure the cost of even a used mill will be much more even after selling the mill I have.  If I can get a bigger hydrolic mill I may take the plunge though.  We'll see.

Andy

Dan_Shade

i guess i'm sort of stuck on why you wouldn't want to build a new frame...

it would only take a few sticks of tubing which would probably cost a few hundred bucks and be 50x stiffer than the hud-son.

then you could sell your hud-son striaght out.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

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