Treating for bugs

[dail_h]

Hey Guys,
I need to treat the lumber from these pine logs for powder post beetles.I've read several posts about it in the past, but now can't find them .What should I use?
THANKS

[Scott_R]

Dail, I may be wrong (the rest of the gang is sure will tell me if I am) , but powder post beetles feed on hardwoods. You should be treating for pine borers. Scott

[ohsoloco]

I'll second Scott's comment about PPB's only feeding on hardwoods...

[Tom]

Powderpost beetles may feed on soft or hardwood.  Some educators don't acknowledge softwood feeders, probably because of their narrow band of experience.  Others will speak of PPB in softwoods.  The argument relies on the description of a "true" PPB.  Regardless, the damage still exists and the animals are much alike.

Look for  timbor, boracare, or other borate applications.

http://www.menco.com/powderpostbeetlepage.htm

http://www.cce.cornell.edu/factsheets/pest-fact-sheets/powder-post-beetles.html

http://www.powderpostbeetles.com/

http://ctr.uvm.edu/ctr/el/el51.htm

http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/edmat/html/pnw/pnw326/pnw326.html

[Don P]

Didn't realize Bora-care was effective for them.
Here's a cheaper home brew way to make it.
http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/rot.html

We can get Solubor from the Co-op, mixed with water it makes Tim-bor, mixed with ethylene-glycol it makes Bora-care.

[dail_h]

THAT'S THE STUFF,THANKS GUYS ;D ;D ;D ;D

[ARKANSAWYER]

  The main thing when storing pine lumber is to remove any bark that may be on a waney edge.  It is the thin layer under the bark that gets them started.  I have sprayed pine lumber stacked outside with 50/50 mixture of bleach and water to stop mildew and bugs.  Works ok.  Borate stuff will wash off so make sure the lumber is in the dry.  
  It may not be the same bug as in my oak but it makes the same hole and powder out side of it.
ARKANSAWYER

[Steve]

Here is Hawaii the powder post can be real bad, especially in the fruit woods like Mango.
The local Ag inspectors tell us to use Orthochlor and it seems to work great. I use it right behind the mill. I spray a heavy coat between each layer of deadstacked boards behind the mill. The boards sit this way for a few days and then are stickered and covered to dry. The one application is about all I need as it keeps the bugs out till the wood gets half way dry and they seem to leave it alone. They can often hit freshly milled wood in a day or two.

[Don P]

I have sprayed pine lumber stacked outside with 50/50 mixture of bleach and water to stop mildew and bugs.  Works ok.  Borate stuff will wash off so make sure the lumber is in the dry.  

Arky,
 Put down the bottle! :D The bleach bottle that is ;D...think about this thing. Clorox gasses off after it does its initial work, it doesn't even wait to be washed off. It damages the wood fiber, not a big deal if planing, a big deal if its rustic siding that someone is going to try to finish, premature finish failure is the usual result.

Look at the borates, they really don't just wash off, they leach out. If flooded on, especially if done to fresh green wood still wet, the salts diffuse in pretty deeply travelling across the wet from a high concentration area (the surface you're flooding) toward the lower salt concentration of the core.

Ideally you would then dry under cover and apply a water repellant finish in use. But, lets say it does get rained on. The surface layer of borates is washed away but a damp layer of wood of low salt concentration is there...the salt diffuses from the core area back toward the surface offering some protection. Far more protection than the Clorox, about that next rewetting and humid day you're heading back to the house to get another bottle  ;D...of Clorox.

I've used the solubor solution on several jobs. On one we had hot weather, lots of rain, water in the basement and fungi blooming on the logs . 24 hours after spraying it down the fungi died and didn't come back. A former customer used the bora-care on some active decay this summer (he had "unique" finishing ideas), so far same result. We used impel rods in logs around the AC unit splash zone on the house this year with proper finish on the logs, its my back-up if the finish fails and splash wets the wood the rods will dissolve and migrate to the wet area that would otherwise support decay and bugs.

I know you've heard someone repeatedly dismiss borates out of hand. I don't know why, its good stuff. We knocked back a nasty infestation of some type of boring bug in a 1928 cabin that was very well established, multiple wet on wet applications following the power wash. CCA it ain't but you wouldn't go wrong mixing up the glycol/ borates and saturating all house framing wood. The glycol just stays wet longer so the borates can go deeper. Its also a fire retardant.

I think its been used in New Zealand for years?

[Captain]

Interesting thread,  this is a challenge that I have been considering for our new horse barn which is made of Eastern White Pine primarily.
Does anyone know, are the Borates toxic to livestock, especially horses?  Also, will it make the wood more "appetizing" to the cribbing horse?  
I have talked to some commercial pest contractors, and nobody is sure how my building should be treated for pest prevention.  ???

Thanks in advance,
Captain

[Bro. Noble]

Captain,

Several years ago I was cutting posts out of our pine plantation.  Planted pine sometimes has a problem with a fungus (fomus anosis) which is spread by root contact.  A reccomended prevention is to wet the fresh cut stumps with a boron solution.  I carried my boron solution in a gallon milk jug.  Had a guy helping me.  He carried his drinking water in a gallon milk jug.  You probably figgered ahead what happened.  It didn't make him sick, but it sure made him mad.  It sure seemed to quinch his thirst in a hurry. :D

Noble

[Don P]

Not sure about the borates with horses, these folks might be able to help.
http://www.borax.com/pioneer21.html
Sending you to an interesting article from their library.  They have a contact clicky at the top of the page.
Its non toxic to us but I'm not sure about quantity. Ethylene glycol is toxic and sweet tasting (anti freeze) so definitely don't mix that formulation.

[Captain]

Don P

Thanks for the reply.  I think that I found the answer in another part of their site!!

http://www.borax.com/borates4.html

Thanks!!

[Tom]

I thought it would be important enough of a subject to print what you found.  Here is what that site says.

Safe for People, Pets and the Environment
Borates have an excellent record for safety when used as directed. Boron compounds have low acute toxicity - meaning ingesting small amounts is not likely to cause health problems. Laboratory studies show large doses of boron compounds can cause reproductive and developmental effects in animals. However, similar effects have not been observed in humans. In short, there are no uses of borates - including mining and refining them - that pose any risk to human health.

When ingested, boron is readily absorbed into the blood stream by both humans and animals. However, 90 to 100 percent is excreted rapidly through urination. Boron is not metabolized by animals nor by humans. Boron compounds are poorly absorbed through intact skin in both humans and animals, although they can be absorbed through damaged skin. Boric acid and other boron compounds are approved for use in low concentrations in cosmetics and talc in the United States and Europe. Data also indicate that inhaling boron compounds does not pose a significant risk to animals or humans.

[woodbowl]

I know you've heard someone repeatedly dismiss borates out of hand. I don't know why, its good stuff. We knocked back a nasty infestation of some type of boring bug in a 1928 cabin that was very well established, multiple wet on wet  ............ mixing up the glycol/ borates and saturating all house framing wood.

I'm in a pickle and will need to spray my whole house with something for bore beetles. I need to hit them hard because they are really munching down now. I don't want to poisin my family so I've been looking into using just pure borax with water in a sprayer. It's cheap and I think it is safe even in saturating conditions. I've found a few folks that have done this, but I need to know how well it works.  Thanks.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7761.msg280131#msg280131

[Don P]

Y'all notice that out of hand stance move a little as time has gone by .

I've been through a few hundred more pounds of Solubor since then, that little doesn't make me any great authority, it seems to work for me. It's cheap enough I can't think of a reason not to. I think an explanation of "pure" might help. Solubor, Timbor, Bora-care, Shell-gard... all use DOT a form of borate. Another recipe uses borax and boric acid mixed to make DOT. It all comes out of the same pit that your 20 mule team came from, its pure borate. Shell gard and Bora care have different wetting agents, shellgard's is non toxic, boracare's is toxic.

The downside I think for you might be getting it to where the borers are. It will take pretty good penetration I think. Borates only move at something like 25% moisture content and above. It will be hard to keep the wood wetted long enough with just a borate/water solution to get deep penetration. When the wood dries, inward movement stops. Thats the reason for the glycol mixes, they dry very slowly.

It's been long enough, and I'm lazy enough, can't remember the exact references in Tom's links. I think you should be looking under old house borers aka death watch beetles.

I ain't admittin to nuthin but I agree with Noble.

[woodbowl]

It's cheap enough I can't think of a reason not to...........

Another recipe uses borax and boric acid mixed to make DOT.

It all comes out of the same pit that your 20 mule team came from, its pure borate.

  Thats the reason for the glycol mixes, they dry very slowly.

I think you should be looking under old house borers aka death watch beetles.

Don, do you know how the recipe is measured out for 20 mule team borax, water, antifreeze and boric acid? I'm thinking it would stick around a while and continue to penetrate the wood. 

[getoverit]

I was doing some studfy on the EPA site the other day about wood treatment. There are several companies that are selling borate treated wood for interior use, and the claim is that it will NEVER need any further treatment for termites or any other wood eating insect.  They claim it adds about $2,500 to the cost of an average home if built with this type of treated wood, but the savings are quickly realized because of no further need for termite treatment EVER.

I do know that boric acid will get rid of fleas and roaches and does little harm to grass and plants when spread in the yard. The EPA is giving full endorsement to this borate treated wood as safe and effective for indoor use. They will not give their blessing to this wood for exterior use because it is water soluable and will wash off in a rain.

I have some boracare and the reccomended mixture of this is one gallon of boracare to 3 gallons of water. They reccomend hot water because this stuff is so thick that it wont easily dilute in cold water.

ethylene glycol (anti-freeze) is toxic to other animals like dogs and cats, but the borates are harmless to everything, including humans. It will help make the borates stick to the wood though and does increase it's penetration into the wood.

Here are a couple of links to some good sites with info on borate treated wood and wood treatments:

environmental sensitive

borate pressure treated wood

[woodbowl]

It may be possible that I could obtain some Lindane from a friends leftover supply. Before it was banned, it was quite commom for people to spray it everywhere including on the dog.

Now with the environmentalist tooting about every little thing, we as a society are being programed to accept what ever comes down the pipe. There is some good information out there and some unfounded info as well.

The plain truth of the matter is that I don't want to poisin my home. Residual effects are needed what ever is used. As I continue to hammer, cut and brush against studs and such, there is no way to keep it off of me or anyone else untill the walls, ceiling and floor are closed in.

Putting Lindane on a pine tree in the woods is one thing, spraying it in a home seems to be another to me.

I'm just desperate for answers, that's all. The wood is solid right now, but it sounds like it's raining when you walk in the structure. That's how bad the crunching is.


HELP HELP HELP

[Radar67]

Olen, I use a product called permethrin in the house. It has a sweet smell as it is derived from flowers (chysanthimums I think). I have never had a problem with kids or pets using this inside to spray the base boards, carpets and such. It does have a residual effect and once dry it is safe. I think I got my last bottle of concentrate at the farm store, it's been a while though. I mix 1 ounce to the gallon. Here is a link I found you might want to check out, Bug Spray it is a little pricey, almost $50 a quart, but it does work.

Stew

[Tom]

Some of my 40 year old education.

Pyrethrins, derived from the flower of a daisy looking astor, were, and are, used as a "knockdown" chemical.  Insects will generally drop almost immediately when doused with a small amount of Pyrethrin.  It then gives other chemicals the opportunity to do the killing.  Pyrethrins can kill.  They are neuro toxins.  An insect exposed to pyrethrin will fall and kick uncontrollably.  It's nerve synapses are all firing constantly.  It's heart succumbs.  Usually it is not used as the killing chemical though.

You can look at the ingredients of most insecticide aerosols and find pyrethrin.

Permethrin, I'm not familiar with other than it is the synthetic and is apparently more lethal.  Most that I've read of its use finds its lethality dependent on its concentrations.  The stronger you mix it the more of the insects it will kill.  It apparently hangs around for a couple of years. 

Pyrethrums are contact poisons and I would assume that permethrin is too.  That means that you have to touch it.  Some poisons are volatile and will get into the air.  DDT was like that. DDT would form crystals in wood and creep toward the surface as the surface of the crystal vaporized, always exposing more of the crystal.  That was one of the reasons for its longevity, the crystal was protected.

There are many chemicals out there that will kill difficult insects if the concentrations are great enough.  The problem is that higher concentrations override the human safety factor and chemicals that once didn't bother people, begin to do so.

Never treat any chemical, used to disrupt the normal operation of animal life functions, with complacency.  You will hear CCA proponents offer to chew on the treated wood,  Arsenal proponents say you can drink the stuff and Pyrethrin or Rotenone proponents say that you can take a bath in it, to no detriment.  Hog Wash!  Treat all chemicals respectfully and go by the instructions.  Beware of chemicals that continue to be sold as "stronger formulations".  That may mean that the regular formulation was no longer effective.

If I were to treat a piece of wood in my house, I would lean toward Borax.  I would dust and spray the interior of walls. The spray, if it could get into the wood, would protect it from boring insects and fungus'.  The dry formulation would be there to protect from roaches, ants and fleas for years to come. Don't ingest Borax!   Borax won't harm you if you just come into contact with it. It is used to increase the cleaning ability of soaps as a buffer.  It will cause rashes in overexposure and can even kill humans if ingested.  No chemicals are playthings.

If there is an active infestation inside of closed walls, a professional application of fog may be the only way of reaching them.

[jkj]

permethrin... it is a little pricey, almost $50 a quart, but it does work

I use permethrin also.  It's $38/qt for the same concentration here.  I paid far more at our local farmer's co-op.  :(

JKJ

[Don P]

I think the borax/boric acid mix was posted by beetle awhile back. The glycol can be ethylene (antifreeze), propylene(rv antifreeze) or polyethylene (PEG).
Old time carpenters used to put a little borax on the bottom plates before they buttoned up the walls.

The heavy infestations I've used it on have been in hardwoods with lyctid ppb's. The solubor worked pretty well, there were a very few holes that still had activity a year or more later, I mean 2 or 3. Remember that their life cycle usually requires that they surface to mate, and re-enter to lay eggs. Both are opportunities.

One thing the commercially treated borated lumber is being sold for is drywood, formosan, termite areas. Those buggers don't need to go to ground, they can swarm to a wall 2 stories up and begin feasting and nesting right there. They got into a cousin's house and did major damage undetected. The little I've used had retention levels that I don't think I've ever produced at home.

[woodbowl]

I'm scared of all of them. Borate products seem to be the safest though. It just seems that there should be a good cheap way for the home owner to do it themselves using a recipe like Beatle posted. The problem is, unless I know of some good success stories with homemade recipes, I can't waste any more time about spraying.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=11426.msg158352#msg158352

I've listened to the bugs in my house last year but I figured that they will hach on out and be gone. This year they are much worse. I've been reading where they can continue to emerge even after 10 years, comming back each year doesn't help matters either.

Lindane is an option .............. I kinda' wish it wasn't.  :-\

[Don P]

heat?