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Feelings on SIPs

Started by FrankLad, September 20, 2006, 01:16:13 PM

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FrankLad

Hey guys!

I've been away for a while, working on clearing our land, getting ready for the foundation and eventually frame.

We had someone design our house for us, primarily consisting of cypress timbers enclosed in structural insulated panels.

I was hesitant at first about using SIPs but eventually decided it was the way to go in terms of energy efficiency, strength, and labor savings...also, since it completely wraps the frame, it allows the timbers to be more visible.  Before deciding on SIPs I had planned on a regular stud-wall between the posts.

One of the reasons I was against them at first is being somewhat of a purist, wanting to use as much natural materials as possible - and reading some of the comments in timber framing books against SIPs ("manufacturing of them is harmful to environment" and "they are not as permanent as the timber") only enhanced those feelings.

Like I said, though - I was eventually swayed for the aforementioned reasons and also because I found out that they are manufactured a bit better now (ie. less CFCs, formaldahyde, etc.)

HOWEVER...

I got some quotes back from two big panel companies for pre-cut SIPs, based on our plans, and the price is no joke.  One of these companies has a plant in Mississippi so the shipping won't be too bad but still....wow.  I read in more than one place that you save money in labor with SIPs but I just do not see how.

So what I'm hoping to get here is some reassurance from you guys as it pertains to panel quality in general and the current status of SIPs manufacturing.

...hope that makes sense.

LOL!

Stephen1

I just used sips for the roof. I liked using them. I was able to put them up with some untrained labour. They were comparable  $to hiring a framer, and then all the other labour for insulating, vapour barrier. Instructions from my sip company and my poor research on installation was lacking for the prep work especially. Hind site is always 20-20. But I did get the roof on in 1 day.
Brock University did a study on actual  R value of 32 sips versus pink. At -30 pink has a R value of R5 versus the sips of R32.
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

FrankLad

I appreciate that info, Stephen!

The insulating factor is a big deal to me - down here in Southern MS we want to keep it cool on the inside.  We've been told to expect a big savings on our electric bill, so that's good.

However, I have been informed that we will need an exchange system to circulate fresh air around.  This is something I will leave to the HVAC person but I would like to know more about how that works - and can't find much info about it on the net besides "theory" as opposed to what it really is (what hardware is required), etc.


logman

I used sips on my timber frame and love them.  It is the warmest,
most draft free house I've ever lived in.  It also costs us less to cool
which is all you're worried about I guess.  I got panels from General
Panel Corp. out of Tenn. and cut them myself.  The only special tool
you really need is a foam scoop which costs about 85.00.
I installed an air to air heat exchanger.  I bought the unit and installed it
and just let the HVAC company hook the ducts to it but I think I
would have done a better job myself.  The company I got to do my HVAC
wasn't the best but they were about the only company that
I could get to come out.  Every other company was too busy I guess with
the housing boom.  I had to fix a few of their screwups and then
they tried to rip me off by installing a 10 seer unit when on my
contract they had quoted a 12 seer.
One thing I did on my sips that I should have done differently
was that I did like Ted Benson describes in his books
about drilling holes in the seams after installation and shooting
foam in that way.  It would have been much easier to foam
during installation like I found out on another raising job. 
I probably wasted more foam than I used.
LT40HD, 12' ext, 5105 JD tractor, Genie GTH5519 telehandler
M&K Timber Works

bigmish

As I understand it, the big cost savings is in terms of labor. The SIPs will be more expensive in terms of material cost but if you are hiring workers or if you highly value your own labor they will likely be cheaper even before factoring in heating savings (which in buildings under 1200 sf may be insignificant).

Raphael

  I'm somewhat of a purist as well but we went with SIPs for all the same reasons.  If I were building my house with cash I might have bought the scaffolding and gone with a "wrap and strap" approach, although recently I've become interested in straw clay infill and straw bale.  Since I'd be working solo most of the time it's a real economical option but not very feasible, especially given our construction loan.
  Aside from wanting to make the house as energy efficient as possible, SIPs installed by the manufacturer was the best option for us.  They brought in their own truck crane with an experianced operater and were in and out in two and a half days, with all the rough openings framed and ready to go.  Our only hitch was the lack of kiln dried lumber in this area.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

slowzuki

Try several panel companies, Thermospan had the lowest prices I could find by about 50%.  Jeff Tarable is the fellow I got  to know while pricing.

Our problem was we didn't know when the frame was going to be up and had no dry level place to store them.  They sure would have made things a lot easier.  We ended up using 1.5" ship lap XPS foam and 6" batts but I would have much prefered the panels.

One thing people don't mention, in cold climates some sips have telegraphing problems in the joints, I think it is something to do with moisture/vapour barrier but I haven't read up on it.

The air exchange is just a venmar or air-air or heat recovery ventilator, all the same thing.  Hot wet dirty house air goes out, the heat gets stolen for the air coming in.  Most codes specify how much fresh air is required.  I'm putting mine so it constantly draws air out of the bathroom and delivers it elsewhere.  As a side note, because with a woodstove or furnace in an sip or other tight house as they won't be able to pull enough draft or they will mess up your hrv setup.  We are going to put a combustion air intake directly to the stove.

Thomas-in-Kentucky

I'm in the middle of installing SIPs on my timberframe, and I'm accumulating a lot of "hindsight" if you will.  Gotta go hang some more SIPs right now.  Off the top of my head...

1. I can't recommend the manufacturer that I used.  I won't mention their name, but they are out of Indiana.  Sloppy work (we are trimming about 50% of the "precut" panels on site) and late delivery (3 months).  Email me if you want specifics. :(  I guess my general advice for dealing with any panel manufacturer is to see how much they wiggle when you ask them to guarantee a delivery date and ask them what they'll do about mis-cut panels.  Or skip the "miscut" panel issue all together and have them install the panels.  Check with the Better Business Bureau too.

2. Screwing OSB to my timberframe feels like taking a crayon to an oil painting.  :(

3. The panels look like they'll be incredibly energy efficient.  :)

4. The frame is much more rigid with the panels on it. :)

5.  Having window openings and conduit preinstalled is simply awesome.  :)

6.  I wouldn't use them on a roof.  How would you know about a leak if it ever occurred, and how would you patch in bonded OSB if some of it rotted as the result of an undetected leak?  But then again, just about any cathedral ceiling system will have the undtectable leak problem.  Including my built-up roof -- using polyiso slabs, 2x10 rafters, and oak skip sheathing.

-Thomas

I'm documenting the SIP process on my blog right now...
url=http://massiehouse.blogspot.com (my blog - SIPs this week)




Stephen1

Quote from: slowzuki on September 21, 2006, 07:58:39 AM
Try several panel companies, Thermospan had the lowest prices I could find by about 50%.  Jeff Tarable is the fellow I got  to know while pricing.




I also used Thermapan out of FT. Erie ON. Jeff was one of the people I dealt with.  The panels are well made. The only thing I would have liked is more info on instalation for the DIY like us. As for leaks if the roof is properly prepared I do not think that is a problem.
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

FrankLad

Thank you guys for all the feedback!  It is very much appreciated!


QuoteLogman: I got panels from General
Panel Corp. out of Tenn.

That's the company that has a plant here in Mississippi.  It looks like we may wind up going with them since shipping from Insulspan would be around $6-$7K.  The timber framer for our project, Chris Koehn, spoke with another builder about G.P., and I did a lot of calling around myself.  Everybody spoke highly of them.

I'll still go ahead and get a quote from Thermospan/Thermapan (thanks for the mention, slowzuki!) as well though.  Hrm...but they're up in Canada so shipping will be an issue there as well.  Still, if they are cheaper elsewhere...   Doesn't hurt to ask, eh?




FrankLad

Just spoke with  Jeff at Thermapan and he said they don't ship this far down.


Thomas:  Thanks for the link!  Your post about "natural gas" is very interesting.  :)

Thehardway

FrankLad,

Not all SIP's are created equal.  If you are going to use them make sure you go with a recognized manufacturer who has been in business for a while and has enough invested to stay and back up their "warranty".  Won't throw out names but do your research cheaper is not always better

You would be making a wise choice in SIP's vs. pink for roof IMHO.  For hot, humid climates such as yours there are going to soon be some changes in the building codes to get away from vented attics and "cold roofs" and a move towards "warm roofs" and unvented attics.  This is due primarily to building HVAC efficiency factors and condensation around cold air leaks and vapor barriers.  They are rethinking the code. A SIP roof will put you ahead of the game in this regard.

ERV's  (Energy Recovery Ventilators) or HRV's (Heat Recovery Ventilators) are used to exchange fresh outdoor air with stale indoor air without losing the thermal properties of the air it replaces.  They are recommended for homes that are "air tight" to prevent the accumulation of unhealthy gasses and stale air in the home.

A well designed home can accomplish this through natural convection currents and proper ventilation.  Most designers and architects overlook this in designs today.  Cool fresh air should have an entry point low in the home and as it warms it rises and takes the stale air with it out a higher exit point.  Old buildings were often given cupolas for this purpose.

A house should maintain a slightly positive pressure.  If you use an ERV make sure you have a way of balancing the inflow/outflow to provide positive pressure.

It is important with homes that have green timbers or moisture laden wood that some sort of air circulation/exchange occurs until it reaches equilibrium.  If not you will have serious condensation problems along with mold and mildew.

ERV and HRV units are made by Venmar and AprilAire.  Just Google them and you will find a host of info.

Are you building slab, basement, ?
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

FrankLad

TheHardWay:  Thank you!  I've made not of those two names on the ERV & HRVs.

We are building over a crawl space.  Here's part of our foundation plan:



I am actually in the middle of trying to figure out a solution to the moisture scenario right now.

The prevailing school of thought is to get enough air circulation through (why a lot of people down here where we have high humidity build off the ground on blocks).
...but then there's the other mindset that says that bringing air in also introduces moisture - so keep it out in the first place.

(Check this out: http://www.permarproducts.com/onlineformsGPP/Ventilation%20and%20SIPs.pdf)

I'm of the belief that we should have vents down there to get air in one end and out the other...and maybe also compliment that with a humidifier running on a stat.
So...I'm talking with the designer and HVAC man on how to go about this as it's not shown in our plans.  (As you can see, we have a 4" slab over a moisture barrier over gravel.  Also, (not shown) the outside of the foundation wall will be waterproofed. So it has been designed to keep moisture out.  But still I'm a bit worried with our high humidity and such...)




Thehardway

Little confused here.  You are building a crawlspace with a 4" slab over a vapor barrier over gravel and then putting a conventional floor over the crawl space?  Why not use the 4" slab as your floor and eliminate crawlspace altogether?  What purpose will the crawl space be serving?  Is this where your HVAC ductwork and air handler reside? Will other mechanicals be in this space?

The website you mentioned is definitely on the right track.

Check this website out for info on venting and moisture barriers in southern climes.  http://www.buildingscience.com/
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

ARKANSAWYER


   Having used SIP's I think they are neat.  Thought of making my own by framing a wall with 1x6's and putting the outside boards on then flipping them over and having the spray foam guy come buy and fill the panels while they are laying on the ground.  Yes it does put you in the dry faster and I have seen some shear test done that say that it improves how ridgid the frame is.

  Now just a side note on "tight as a tick" houses.   More and more houses are built so tight that no freash air gets in.  That means fumes from carpet, osb, paint ect are all locked into the house.  Lots of places are not like here where you can leave widows open (unless you got bars) so freash air can come in.  This I believe is why we are getting more and more sick people because they are locked in with all this stale air.  Black mold is another thing I am seeing more and more of in new homes and can not remember it 20 years ago.  I see frames (both stick and timber) raised in a week and then rained on then dried in and finished in a week.   They hang sheet rock and paint it all in the same week.   Where does the moisture go?   We seal walls so tight that no air passes through.   Plastic this and plastic that and low fume paints?
  Just makes me wonder how much health problems are from people being closed up in the same enviroment with all the fumes from all the junk in the house.   Where does the moisture from the bathroom or cooking go?

  And one last thing!   HOW COME MY WIFE HAS TO HAVE THE HOUSE 65 DEGREES IN THE SUMMER AND 85 IN THE WINTER.     ??? ??? ??? ???
ARKANSAWYER

ronwood

Arky,

Good last question !!!!!!!!!!!!

Ron
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

hayton1960

As I understand it, over here the building inspectors will soon require houses to be virtually airtight, they will have to pass a test where the doors, windows etc are all sealed then they pump air in and see how long it takes to get back to normal air pressure or see how much leaks out in a given length of time, something like that I cant remember the details. I agree with Arkansaywer theres too much emphasis on making houses like sterile boxes. We seem to take it as a natural state of affairs to live in dry warm air 24/7 and that cold air is bad bad bad, but is that really good for humans? I dont want to have to live in a sealed hermetic box and have to depend on a whole load of "climate treatment appliances". A house needs to BREATHE does it not? Consider how much air is being drawn through the fabric of the building when a real fire is burning, taking damp stale air, mould spores, germs ect with it, wicking moisture out of the walls floor ceiling . I was taught that water ingress is the number 1 thing that destroys houses, you always have to consider how you will adress that fact with your design, construction etc. Just today I saw a boarded barn where the guttering had sagged in one spot and the water was going like niagara over the edge and down the wall instead of the down spout; if it carries on without repair and maintenance you know what the outcome will be! Old houses die when they stop breathing. Like when folks (out of ignorance) stopped using natural lime mortars that allowed for some degree of movement and were permeable and breathable, to render framed dwellings, and started using concrete instead which locks the moistures in and which cracks easy under stress. Or they coat ceilings with airtight "fartex" to make pretty patterns yeah right. It annoys me when you see people actually taking a good old building down the assisted killing route by using the wrong type of materials to renovate it. I've seen that a lot in France. As for vinyl for "siding" (as you guys call it) windows, doors, eaves, gables etc, least said the better. Some smart butt salsmen gives you all the patter for a quick sale "needs no maintenance" "no need to paint-ever" and all that crap. All that plastic is bad bad bad in my view. Carpenters work in wood not plastic. Otherwise be a plastikker :) ;D
ranting over  ;D


beenthere

QuoteHOW COME MY WIFE HAS TO HAVE THE HOUSE 65 DEGREES IN THE SUMMER AND 85 IN THE WINTER

I've wondered the same thing, and am figurin it's because one is tryin to GET cool in the summer and GET warm in the winter, but we are slow to react.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

FrankLad

Quote=TheHardWay:  What purpose will the crawl space be serving?  Is this where your HVAC ductwork and air handler reside? Will other mechanicals be in this space?

Yep, the main reason we have the crawl space is due to having no attic for duct work.

Thank you for the Building Science link.  I'll be checking it out next...

Arky - the ventillation is a big concern of mine.  I don't like the thought of stale air just hanging around in a tight space.  There will certainly be an exchange system.

As far as the crawl space...I spoke with a couple of folks in the industry about this and the general concensus is to treat the crawl space like a short basement and have it conditioned with the rest of the house.


Beenthere: HA HA!



srjones

I've been away from posting for while too, but I couldn't resist not chiming in here.

Right now, I have my entire SIP package neatly stacked and covered...waiting to be applied to a timberframe that isn't raised yet.  (yeah, I'm working on it...   :)

My thoughts on SIPs.  Pluses ( + ) and Minuses ( - )

1.  ( ----- ) Yes, they are pricey...and that price is affected to of the main ingredients of SIPs: OSB and Styrene.  Those are both commodities and their prices go up and down all the time.  Remember when a sheet of OSB when for $6.99 a sheet?  (2002/2003)  then up to $15  and now it's back down in the $7.00 range.    Stryrene comes from oil and we're all painfully aware of what happens when the cost of crude rises.  Trucks that deliver panels run in diesel fuel too.

2.  ( + ) I love the fact that if I want to add a window or skylight, I can cut it and it's there.  Not quite as easy with stick walls.

3.  ( - and +)  I was able to get some of my panels in the largest size (8x24).  Less joints (goes on fast ++)  but really heavy (--)

4.  (-) Not a great idea to burn scrap polystyrene and it lasts for a long time.  I still have a pile left over from my ICFs that I need to take to dump. 

5.  (-)  Shipping can be a hassle.  Also, if you get the jumbo panels, you'll need a big (expensive) forklift with at least 6' forks to off load them.

6.  I have other comments but they are specific to the company that I used.  If you have questions please PM me.

7.  (++)  However, given all the negative I've listed, I'm still a firm believer in the positive aspects that others have cited including true insulation value (thermal and sound) and relative ease of installation.

-Steve

Everyone has hobbies...I hope to live in mine someday.

Jim_Rogers

With some house just a fan in the bathroom and one near the stove in the kitchen will give enough ventilation to be sufficient. You may need to do a airflow calculation to determine just how much  is needed......
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

FrankLad

srjones:  Thanks for your thoughts on this!  I'm feeling better and better about the SIPs the more I read, so I'm certainly glad I got some feedback from you guys.

QuoteWith some house just a fan in the bathroom and one near the stove in the kitchen will give enough ventilation to be sufficient. You may need to do a airflow calculation to determine just how much  is needed......

Jim_Rogers: That may very well be what the HVAC guy has in mind - not sure yet.  I'll post back if it winds up being something out of the ordinary.

logwalker

Has anyone used Premier Building Systems for a supplier of sips? I have a manufacturer close. Thanks, LW
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

scgargoyle

I wonder if you could build your own sips? Build a big clamping jig, and laminate the inner and outer panels w/ styrofoam sheet and adhesive. I know it could be done easily; I wonder if you could get a building inspector to sign off on it?
I hope my ship comes in before the dock rots!

Jayson

Being bit of a purist myself,I feel your pain.I'm sure that any question's you may have about the building envelope,venting,r-value,solar gain,thermal massing etc,etc, can be answer by the Southface Energy Institute here in Atlanta.Look for them online.You may also search for Southeastern Energy Expo which I believe is organized by the former editor of Mother Earth News.Good luck.Oh yeah there used to be a company that made panel from agricultral waste(corn husk and such)I believe they were pricey but they were very e friendly.Agriboard was the name.In MS I think.

FrankLad

Thanks for the info there, Jayson!

Hrm... Agriboard.  Hadn't heard of them until now...and they're in MS?  Will do some poking around to see what I can find.

FrankLad

I gotta say... this Agriboard stuff is very attractive so far.  I like the idea of how it is made and how even the waste from manufacturing can be used afterwards.  Not to mention the fact that it's just safer overal for the guy on the other end, who is putting this stuff together.

We're still a ways off from even having to place an order on the SIPs so I'm running this by my timber framer to get his thoughts.

Also, I have a call in to one of their sales reps with regards to pre-cutting services, etc.

Looks like they're in Texas so shipping will be more this way but let's see how they compare in overall price...

Thanks again, Jayson!

FrankLad

It appears they only offer 4" and 8" panels.

Also, the weight has me concerned.  Our plans were engineered for 6-1/2" SIPs w/ EPS core.  The Agripanels weigh in at around 9 LBS / SQFT for the thinner ones.

I'll keep you posted...

Don P

How is the R value on those?

If you are having inspections, you'll probably need to provide the inspector with an engineering services report number from the manufacturer  ;).

Jayson

Hey Frank,
             Glad to hear Agriboard is still kicking.It has been years since I checked them out.I forgot about the whole weight issue.I'll keep checking your post for updates.I am a timber framer and an Earthcraft builder here in GA so it's nice to keep up.Good Luck.

slowzuki

Re making your own panels, some local inspectors allows the non-certified panels to be used in garages and barns but they will not let them into houses as structural components, only spans under 2 ft or 4 ft or something like that.

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