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Is it Just Me?

Started by tcsmpsi, September 09, 2006, 09:58:15 AM

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tcsmpsi

Or, is anyone else habitually addicted to measuring every cut?




See that device on my back pocket?  That's a tape measure which always hangs around.   I have always measured tooth to open edge of cutting.  Just not able to completely rely on those little marks on the different cutting tools I have used. 

I have found that I am no different in using this bandmill tool.  Fortunately (due to some Grander Design than my own), I have a mill that I can readily measure top or bottom of blade tooth to cut. 

Yeah, I figure it in my head what it should be, but I always have to reach for my measuring tool to confirm. 

A little perplexing, because on my planer I just go right along with what it says. (I suspect that is only because I can't readily get in there to get a good, quick physical measurement).

I don't know how many good old Stanley tape measures I have worn the blades through over the years. 

So, is it just me?  (and, why do I feel like I'm 'confessing' something  ???)
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Tom

Not me.   :D
When I first started I didn't know my left foot from a board foot and measured everything, top to bottom, front to back.  I spent a long time leveling a log and wondering how to get a board out of it.   If a customer had me cutting 4/4 and said in the middle of the log, "cut me a couple of  2x4's, make'm and inch and a half".    I would go nuts and get out the tape rule while my eyes rolled back in my head as I tried to figure out how to get back on scale.  Coming out perfectily at the bottom seemed to be a  real hangup.

Now It doesn't bother me at all.  I eyeball leveling the log and find that i'm within a half inch most all of the time.  I learned to open faces rather than cut thicknesses when I was slabbing.  I learned points that would let me saw to the bed but sticking to them doesn't matter anymore.  I learned little tricks and shortcuts that let me cut any board the customer wants and still figure the next board.  I learned to cut to a target and became a lot better at estimating the cant in the log.

You will be amazed at how accurate your eye becomes over the years.

Now I seldom take out a tape measure and my production has gone way up over the years because of it.  Depending on the scales on the mill has allowed that. 

You have to remember that it is a sawmill.  That's why they make table sawys and planers for shop work and sizers for construction material, to get them on the money.  The bandmill can be quite accurate and you have to learn to trust your scale sometime.

Why worry about measuring the thickness of the end of the board when the whole cant is moving and the board you are taking off is going to move.  Just make sure you get enough.

One measurement that stays pretty constant, and I learned that one quickly, is the length of the board.  It's the length of the log, everytime.  :D

Here's a Knowledge Base item where Bibbyman consolidated a bunch of member posts on production

sawguy21

Gee Tom who wudda thunk? :D :D :D :D In heli logging, the ground crews had to accurately guesstimate the weight of each turn and would radio their numbers up to the pilot . It became a  game and they were consistently DanG close. Like you, they just knew from years of experience.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

tcsmpsi

I don't know...there has always been something...hmmm...monumentally satisfying, about having that very nth point of cutting tool line up right in the middle of that little line...   ;D

\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Tom

You've got it bad, tcsmpsi.  :D :D

If you really want to wonder where the day went, try measuring  board thickness on the other end of the cant.  If that is lining up just fine, try measuring cant thickness from the bunk to the top of the cant and make it match the front (entrance) point of the cant.

If that is all lining up to your satisfaction, then stick the end of the measuring tape in your cup of coffee and measure the level of evaporation from cant to cant.  At least that will slow down the use of the tape some.  :D

I love it.  I can see myself, some years ago, all over again.   Part of it is probably what the psychiatrist call excessive compulsive behavior and the rest of it is being unsure of the capabilities of the machine as well as the criticalness of the output.   You could drive yourself nuts. :D

Here is a brief lesson plan to try.

Put the tape measure in the glovebox of the truck and go cut 5 or 6 logs. ;D

I know what you are going through.  I had it. Maybe not as bad as some folks, but, I know exactly what you are going through.

I wish I were there.  Amongst the subjects of "what board is next", have another cup of coffee, wonder what that next log is like, wonder why the cant or board did that(?), Hey! look at knot, what did you have for dinner, etc, etc, I'd either have you broke of the tape or multi tasking your mind to the point that you would forget it.  :D

That tape is a good tool, really, and your concern over the accuracy of the mill is a real tribute to your worth.  It's just that we have to discover where the point of diminishing returns is.  You'll find that there is a pride in that too.

Don't be intimidated, be in charge.  8) :D

DWM II

I'm a machinist by trade and switching to wood work has been slow due to my wanting to measure every single board and trying to turn a wood-mizer into a bridgeport milling machine. no it aint just you!
Stewardship Counts!

Percy

My mill(area) is littered with tape measures(25 footers). The only thing we use them for is checkin log lenghts, diameters and mid cant measurments to see if the wood is "moving" as we cut it. Like Tom said, after a while, you can "see" a skinny board, or when you pick it up, your hand tells you, "this one is an eigth under".  When turning a log with only one open face, I can get it "square" by eyeball these days as opposed to checking. Repetition hones the senses(or in my case, pounds the info thru my thick skull :D)
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

tcsmpsi

Quote from: Tom on September 09, 2006, 12:54:57 PM
You've got it bad, tcsmpsi.  :D :D




::)  I know.   :D   ;)

Uh, I like the part about drinking coffee, though.

This first batch of logs I had, has given me opportunity to find a great deal about the finer points of the process.   All the lumber that I have thusfar, is for our own use and is going to be used without any further change (except for cutting to fit).  

Guys at the lumber yard always liked to 'get me' when I would come in to pick up my own materials, because all I needed them for was to check it off.  I could (happily and with a song in my heart) have it all loaded, tied down and ready to go while they would have still been figuring where to put what.  

Of course, what's really bad, is when I have to pull out the micrometers and the calipers.   And the magnifying glass.   :D

\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

tcsmpsi

Whew!!  Hey, thanks, LA Sawyer!  (somehow, I didn't quite think it would be just me) ;D    Volks Machine Works  San Luis Obispo, CA   ;)


More than one tape measure???  Now, Percy that would be like having more than one wife!   ;D





\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Gus

I can remember from past experience just what you are going through from a different perspective. I work as a telephone cable/fiber technician. I use diagnostic machines to find trouble that, sometimes, can be miles away. For me it boiled down to trust. I had to learn to trust my diagnostic analyzers to give me the proper distance to the fault or I could become "paralyzed at the knob", I called it. If I have fed the proper information into the machine, it will give me acurate readings. I've gotten over this years ago but, man, it was tough.
Trust your machine,
Gus

"How do I know what I think unless I have seen what I say?"

oldsaw

Not me.  I don't count, my Alaskan does it automatically.   8)  One less thing to think about.

Mark
So many trees, so little money, even less time.

Stihl 066, Husky 262, Husky 350 (warmed over), Homelite Super XL, Homelite 150A

Tom

An Alaskan with Automatic Setworks.   :D

I'll bet it has a board removal system as well as power forward and gig back too.  :D :D

brdmkr

Tcsmpsi

I used to measure more than I do.  Now I measure the first cut to make sure the repeater is right and I trust it from there, but I use a swing mill.  To me it seems that the wood shrinks differently based on how it was sawn (qtr, flat, etc.) anyway.  So, it seems there are minor differences that can't be helped.  Like Tom said, the mill is not a planer.  I figure I'll just cut everything pround and if the dimensions are critical I can plane. 
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Part_Timer

I'm with brdmkr  I measure the first one if it is something other than 4/4.  If it is a big log say 48" I will through the level across the power head rails and see if I'm dropping more on one side than another then make a leveling cut if I'm not.
Otherwise I figure that is why it is rough cut lumber.
Peterson 8" ATS.
The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

Left Coast Chris

tcsmpci........... your mill looks like it might be home made.   So is mine.   The first scale I tried was a standard yard stick.  The blade thickness kept throwing me off and the math took way too much time.  I finally got a Woodmizer scale that has a hardwood scale on one side and a softwood scale on the other.  It accounts for blade thickness pretty well and the really cool part is that it has a set screw with a wing nut.  If you want to start off scale you just loosen the wing nut and set the scale at that point.   It gave me confidence and now I can fly through a log even when cutting different sizes out of the same log.   8)

If you don't have a Woodmizer scale (I use one off of a manual LT30) it might help you to shed the tape..... ::)

Home built cantilever head, 24 HP honda mill, Case 580D, MF 135 and one Squirel Dog Jack Russel Mix -- Crickett

Ron Wenrich

This kinda reminds me when I first did any forestry work.  I was working for the Bureau of Land Management in Oregon.  We were marking a stand of timber, and were marking everything below 32" dbh.  It was a shelterwood type of cutting.  I was doing the marking and the tallies were on 4" diameter classes.

The forester I was working with had about 15 years experience and would call out the diameter of tree I was to mark.  Being the novice, I asked him how he could be so sure that the tree was that diameter without measuring them.  I thought it to be a little unprofessional.

He told me to go ahead and check him to see what he got wrong.  In the course of the day, he missed very few and I learned that you can trust your eye.

At the mill level, I can tell when a board is thin or thick.  Sometimes the angle of the cut will make things look thick, but the end of the board will tell you if its thick or thin.

I also have a saying - they call it a rough cut mill for a reason. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

PawNature

You know the old saying. "Measure twice, cut once," or was that measure twice then measure again, then think about cutting before you measure again...
GOVERMENT HAS WAY TO MUCH CONTROL OVER OUR LIVES!!!!

fat olde elf


good stuff !!!!!!!!!!! I listen to Tom, he's right a lot of the time......

Also Practice, practice, practice...........I almost always cut fat.......
Cook's MP-32 saw, MF-35, Several Husky Saws, Too Many Woodworking Tools, 4 PU's, Kind Wife.

jpgreen

Talk about a tape measure and a mill...

I just spent the past two days aligning the thing and that was more work then the engine swap..  ;)

Dang near every bolt rusted frozen.

Well it's cutting square, and I was trying to get used to the WM scale.  Does the inch scale allow for the cut? And where do you guys place the indicator? Right on the line, or just below, or?..

I placed that orange indicator just above the mark on the measure (but aligned it 14 3/4" about the bed rails like the book said), and was getting closer to 7/8" than 1" or 4/4.  Oh well, I'll get it figured out.
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

Minnesota_boy

Rust Reaper makes getting those rusty bolts loose.  Just ask Percy or Bibbyman.

Woodmizer's 4/4 scale allows for an eighth inch saw kerf.  The inch scale tells you how far the head is above the bed rails.  I never worry too much about where the indicator is, just check what the distance is above the bed when the indicator is where you think it should be and make sure that the indicated distance is the same as you measured.  Then always try to keep the indicator in the same relative position each time you cut, and remember !!!!!  :o you are cutting rough cut lumber.  If the customer wants finished lumber, they take it to a planer.  :)
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

jpgreen

That's my problem!... I'm my customer..  :D

I rust reaped with my torch..  ;D

When you guys mill for customers, what is an acceptable ballpark on cuts?
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

Tom

They usually want them to go all the way through. :) :D

jpgreen

What happens when you come up short?..  ;D
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

Tom

You get the chainsaw out a see if you can find the nail. :P :D

Raphael

  Height adjustment on my mill is ratcheted (1/8" or 1/4" steps) so I tend to measure by ear when stepping off boards.  The tape and rafter square only come out for specialty cuts.
  If I'm milling for someone else (a rare occurance) they've got the choice of dead on, 1/8", or 1/4" over.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

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