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Certification is getting closer, are you ready?

Started by Gary_C, August 02, 2006, 02:52:46 AM

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Gary_C

I have been skeptical of all these certification efforts because from what I have heard they are not consumer driven. In other words, if you give the consumer a choice between certified wood and uncertified wood, the consumer will almost always choose the LOWEST COST wood.

However, in the last few months, it seems like efforts have been accelerating to certify all wood. MN DNR has now certified all state lands and implemented mandantory load tickets for all wood removed from state lands. One pulp mill just sent a demand for a declaration that all wood I supply is considered "Controlled Wood" and not from unacceptable sources.

I also have watched the "turf wars" between the certification groups and still do not see how they are going to get the landowners to pay those ongoing certification fees nor how they will solve the "chain of custody" issues.

However, tonight I saw parts of an interview with the CEO of Walmart and heard about how he was going to make Walmart a "Green Company" and force their suppliers to "clean up their act" on providing environmentially friendly products, even though he was NOT a "tree hugger."

I do not know if this is good or bad. It sort of implies that the forest industry is now doing something wrong. I do know that it will increase my operating costs with probably no financial returns for selling certified wood.

Even though there are turf wars over the Master Logger Programs, they will become necessary sometime soon. There is another cost to absorb as the programs are expensive and you have to recertify every few years.

At any rate, it is coming soon, and I think the only question is how much it will cost to comply.    :)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Ron Wenrich

I have heard very little about certification here in the East.  The state has certified their lands many years ago, and it hasn't really had much of an impact on their sales.  I have never heard of a lumber buyer wanting to buy certified wood.

My feellings are that certification cannot be controlled on the ground.  There are too many players out there that will put non-certified wood with certified wood.  The chain of custody BS will be too hard to follow and will cause a layer of buearacracy that no one in the industry will be willing to pay for. 

Walmart will have little impact on certified wood.  They have a big name, but they aren't a big player in US wood.  Home Depot and Lowe's runs more US wood through their doors than does Walmart.  It also detracts from the problems they have with social issues and makes them look like good citizens.

The certification process can be handled rather easily, but no one wants to do it.  Certify the foresters that do the management and the loggers that do the cutting.  There is no need to certify the landowner, since they are very transient.  Many only own their land for less than 10 years.  Foresters and loggers are in it for the long haul.  Certify the process, not the asset.  If they do work that is not in compliance, they lose their certification.  Much easier to handle.

I've seen a lot of really poor work that gets passed off as forest "management" being done by both foresters and loggers.  Certifying them would go a long way to credibility for the industry.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Cedarman

Wal-Mart gets most of what it sells from China.  Is Wal-Mart going to make sure China uses certified wood?  Wal-Marts competitors would have a field day with the public relations on this one.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Max sawdust

About a year ago in Wisconsin the DNR sent a letter out to all land owners participating in the Managed Forest Law program.  Wisconsin DNR was entering all lands participating in MFL into American Tree Farmers certification program. In order to not be part of the program you needed to send a letter back to the DNR.

So our wood is know certified "green" ???

I am leery about the future of this :-[
max
True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

Woodhog

There is a lot of work regarding certification going on around here, you have to even take first aid courses, hazmat, WHMIS courses to sell to some companies, however it still doesnt seem
to be well organized or filtering down to the small land owners very well.

I think the largest concern to any good forestry programs should be the low prices the "wood cutters" are receiving for the wood. All incentive to do a good job in the woods is lost when you realize you are not making even a fair profit under normal or former work practices let alone certification programs which greatly increase the cost of production.

The industry around here is in the death throes and sinking fast, good management practices have gone out the window in the minds of those trying to make payments, pay huge repair bills and fill the fuel tank while at the same time watching the price of logs plumment 30 percent in the last year.

The forest/nature will eventually benefit as everyone leaves it to itself and moves to other occupations where you at least feed your kids...

Gary_C

Just because Walmart is not a big player in the wood markets, you cannot assume their efforts will not have an impact on the fiber markets. You have to think of all the paper products, packaging, and associated fiber markets that apparently are being affected. The pulp buyer I mentioned is SAPPI and the fact that they are quickly scrambling to "avoid unacceptable sources" of supply indicicates there is some behind the scenes push toward certification, regardless of how dubious. SAPPI does make a fiber mat out of the maple pulp they are buying that is then sold and used in many other products so I can see how they are being pressured to control all their wood supply.

It's kind of obvious who is going to pay for this when you put together the Walmart objective of driving prices down and yet making more demands on their suppliers. There is going to be more pain at the bottom of this fiber chain as certification proceeds in whatever form.   :(
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

thecfarm

To cut wood on someone elses land you have to be certified here.I and any landowner can get around this by cutting on their land only.I can not cut on anyones land and try to sell the pulp to the paper mills or try to sell to the lumber yard.You have to take a full safety class for one week,cost $500 and than a refresher course every year.Probaly more to it than this,but I know I'm on the low side with my infro.All the suppliers said they would pay more for certified wood.You know what that means.I feel it's a big help.All this was done to make the woods safer to work in.Alot of people had no idea the differant ways to cut a tree.I was very lucky in having a Father that knew how to cut trees safely.Not that he knew all the things that are being taught at these classes.I really never knew what a barber chair was until I started to work for a neighbor in high school.He yollered run and I had no ideas why.I learned quick with him.Time to find another job.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ed_K

 I belong to and work for a Co-Op, all their lands are Smart Wood certified. I have to become Master logger certified. Reg's say you have to have 32 credits every 2 yrs, in for different catigories. The credits cost about $250. per yr. When the inspectors come to view your work, they want to inspect 10 of your last jobs. I've been logging since 98 and only have 6 jobs done. So I don't even qualify. How do you compete? I called a mill, said I have certified logs for sale, first thing I heard was "I'll buy all you got but can't pay any extra". I'm a small operation, my ins. is thru the roof, my equip. payments are up due to interst, and fuel is killing me. How do I compete?
I try to do my best for BMP's but I have to get some wood out. Only thing paying now is cordwood, they don't care about "Green Certified".
The Co-Op is selling flooring for good $ and talking  Architects into requiring "Green Certified" into their plans. It is coming, but not as fast or accepted as some would like.
I have to bar code my logs and sign that they came from green cer land and make sure the trucker doesn't mix the load. I DON'T get payed extra for the effort, but the next contract that'll change. Green certified isn't worth it yet.
Ed K

Ron Wenrich

The only ones in my area that want certified loggers are the pulp companies.  They are behind the certification process.  The mills couldn't care less where the logs come from or if they're certified.  They're also competing with Smartwood for certification.  Many loggers don't sell pulp, so certification doesn't matter.

My biggest beef with the program is that they also offer courses in buying wood, but are very limited in the management of the forest.  Loggers buy much more wood than foresters sell.  Diameter limit cutting is not good management, but, its the number one method of cutting.

The only flooring mill that buys wood is in WV.  Bruce hasn't called for certified wood, so there isn't any demand.  Besides, we don't cut that much flooring stock.  There are some locals that produce flooring, but, then we're back to the pricing thing.

A lot of our lumber goes into cabinets, furniture and moldings.  I have never seen a "Green Certified" piece of furniture in any of our stores.  Same goes for cabinets.  Until that changes, hardwood mills will be slow to change.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Tom

I'm not an advocate for certification.  It's just big business and big Government running amuck again and being led around by a ring in their nose by the people and organizations who approach environmental protection with a "stop the logger" mentality.

Someone practicing Forestry without the education, is not a forester.  That doesn't mean that he shouldn't be able to perform the function.  He just shouldn't be able to do it under the guise of having the formal education.

The same with loggers, chainsaw operators, heavy-equipment operators, etc.

Too much Government, too much politics (in business and government alike), too much one guy trying to control the life of another, too many busy-bodies.

It's really bad, and it eventually comes to it, when someone else controls what you do on your own property or in your own house.  I'm not talking about the rules of society that try to protect a man's homestead by preventing the private erection of a garbage dump next door.  I'm talking about the meddling in a man's life that prevents his ability to earn a living, take care of his property in a way in which he sees fit (as long as it's not hindering others).

To extrapolate a little.  (That's a neat word.  I've wanted to use it for a long time and had no reason  :) )

Can you imagine some of these things that the public considers bad, being imposed by law or certification?  You know, the things we use for common, everyday conversation.

Fast food is being blamed for the obesity of today's American Society.  That may or may not be true.  I tend to believe that a fellow is responsible to himself for what he puts in his mouth and, granted, some of it will make him obese.  Obesity is also caused by other things, including a propensity for storage of energy directed by genetics.

It could be that, one day, a fellow decided that his body was better than everybody else's body and should be the model.  He could get himself into a position of control and accumulate enough followers that he could actually begin changing the shape of others and even penalizing them for not following his rules.  How would it be if you were eating a hamburger in a fast food restaurant and a policeman came up to your table and asked to see your log book.   You would have to dig into your purse or attache' case and pull out the book that listed what you had eaten that day.  Hopefully enough time had gone by since the egg and sausage biscuit you had for breakfast.  You tentatively hand over the Eagle Embossed Yellow log and the officers begins studying it with an intense look upon his face.

"I see you had a sausage and egg sandwich for breakfast", he says, as you take a small sip from your drink.

"Yes, I was in a hurry this morning and couldn't fix my normal serving of tofu."

"Doing some quick compilation, it appears that you have run over the allotted meat quota for an entire week, today.  I am going to write you a ticket for this.  It will be $200 and payable at the clerk's office in City Hall.  To avoid incarceration you will be given the option of attending an eating clinic.  This is offered at a charge of $500 dollars for first offenders and will stand in the stead of a 6 month jail sentence, which is the normal adjudication.  I'm going to ignore the fact that you don't have a permit to purchase food in a fast food restaurant, this time.  But, be assured that, if I ever catch you in a place like this again without one, I'll have a special talk with the judge to make sure you pay the ultimate fine or jail term.  Do you understand"?

"Yessir..  Thank you for the leniency", you say as you are thinking, 'you jerk!, I wish I could drop you off in Death Valley with no shoes and no drink of water'. "

"Have a healthy day today", he says, and hands you the ticket as he returns the log book.   "Be sure to update that Log Book with the information on the back of the ticket or you will be banned from the grocery stores', he adds as he turns and walks to the next table where a young teenage boy and his girlfriend are sharing a milkshake.




Ron Wenrich

QuoteI'm not an advocate for certification.  It's just big business and big Government running amuck again and being led around by a ring in their nose by the people and organizations who approach environmental protection with a "stop the logger" mentality.

I'm thinking a lot of this certification stuff is coming from industry.  Right now you have 3 groups wanting to be the big poobah of certification.  FSC, Tree Farm, and the American Pulpwood Association (or something similar to that). 

FSC is independent of industry where the other 2 are industry funded.  This certification stuff started when the industry decided it would regulate itself before the government does it.  Self regulation rarely works.

So, the paper companies have pretty well taken it upon themselves to require certified loggers to buy from.  That fills up there classes and gives them credibility, at least from a marketing standpoint.

The big boogaboo about certified forest products came from Europe.  It was primarily imposed on tropical hardwoods, since they didn't want to contribute to tropical forest depletion through slash and burn agriculture.  Certifying forest products protected the legitimate grower and harvester while penalizing the others.  Many European government projects requre certified forest products, so it had some economic teeth.

However, that certification hasn't transferred itself form the tropical to the temperate hardwoods.  I had a buyer at the mill today that said the market for white oak lumber to Europe still remains strong (thanks to a weak dollar).  Never did the term "certified" slip from his lips.  We also have veneer buyers who sell to Europe that don't request certified wood.

Some architects in this country have jumped on the certified bandwagon and have created a niche market, in my opinion.  Until I see someone wanting trailerloads of certified wood and rejecting all others or certified veneer, then I don't see much movement for landowners to do anything about it.

QuoteSomeone practicing Forestry without the education, is not a forester.  That doesn't mean that he shouldn't be able to perform the function.

As one forester told me "Forest management isn't rocket science.  Its much harder than that".  And as one sawmiller told me "Just when I thought I had all the answers, they started to change the questions".  Forestry is more than performing a function.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Mooseherder

This is all about Protectionism IMO.
It does absolutely nothing to protect the consumer.
Similiar legislation was passed narrowly a couple years ago for the food industry, specifically the Seafood Industry. The bill was sponsored by Sonny Bono's Widow (unelected, if I may point out, but that is a whole other issue.) It is called COOL. (Country of origin labeling.)  This law does not affect Mom and Pop type operations or RESTAURANTS!!!. Only Grocery Stores.  Basically, we have to state where the product in the case came from. Keep records on file and reconcile every day.  This process done correctly will take an hour per store per day. We have 884 Stores. Guess who ultimately pays for this?  Doing the math, this law costs our company 3.8 million a year which in turn is passed back to the consumer.  The Wild Fisheries Industry was behind the initial backing for this fiasco.
They were concerned about the Farmed Fish Industry taking too much business away.
Funny thing is without Farmed Fish there would be no Sustainable Fisheries. There just isn't enough fish. Oh and by the way. The fine for not having the information on the sign, on a Card File that isn't reconciled will cost you 10 thousand per violation. The enforcement started this August 2006. The program is self funded, which means there is no funding from government for enforcement. The money to pay the Inspectors will come from finding the violators, truly unbelievable.
This is just the grease right now. The lobby and cash will make it happen. God help us all.

extrapolate85

I thought about weighing in on this issue, and then recalled a brilliant paper on forest and forest product certification that I read a couple of years ago. The author (Marie-Claude Smouts) is  a French woman and knows the landscape as well the hidden agendas behind certification very well, and trust me - this paper is not what you would expect. Anyone with an interest in understanding the politics and ramifications of certification needs to read her report (follow link below) it is in English.

http://www.isanet.org/noarchive/smouts.html

Tom

I have read it and discovered that I need to read it again..... and maybe again.

There is a lot there to compile and my head will have to be in the right frame. 

Thanks.    :)

Gary_C

Tom, I couldn't agree with you more. There is nothing worse than the ongoing meddling by all governments in everyones affairs. I also read that long report and it certainly details the ongoing meddling by outside "experts" in individual and other countries affairs. However, there is always the other side of these issues.

As far as logging goes, the bad apples perhaps have spoiled the barrel and made it necessary to have certification to clean up the image. That means we are all now going to pay for their past sins. At the same time, in fairness to the loggers, it is a very tough business. Perhaps what they did was necessary to compensate them for the hazards of their business.

Another issue is that we all demand more and more of our governments. We all would like the government to "fix" everything that we see wrong. We want to stop that guy from doing that, get cheaper health care, and on and on. It is only when we see the costs of all our demands that we have second thoughts.  In the words of the famous Pogo, "We have met the enemy, and it is us."

As far as the demand for certified wood is concerned, it reminds me of the old saying in Economics 101. "Teach a parrot to say supply and demand and you have created an Economist." In spite of that even the World Bank and most of these outside environmental experts believe that demand for certified wood can be created out of talk. Value added means nothing to them. From what I have heard, even the most rabbid environmentalist when they go to their local box store to buy a few 2x4's will pick the lowest cost ones over the certified ones when spending their own money.

A few years ago, when the environmental groups "threatened" the big box stores with boycots if they did not start selling certified wood, they all caved in to the threats. Shortly after, there were ships unloading lumber in Duluth from the Baltic States (former soviet republics) where wood is cheap and could be "certified" any way you wished.

From what I have seen of these certification programs, they are an expensive hoax. The different agencys are fighting among themselves over turf and the chain of custody is a expensive joke. Even if we have brought this on ourselves and it is necessary, we deserve better programs than we have. Plus there must be a better way to share the costs as it's not automatically going to be passed on to the consumer.

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

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