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Urban milling, what's the best sawmill for situation? Pictures included!

Started by JimBuis, July 29, 2006, 11:26:01 AM

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JimBuis

I have read many, many debates about the best sawmill. In each case, the answer depends upon the situation, the budget, support equipment, blah, blah, blah.  Okay, here's a situation that would be very typical of the milling I'd like to do. Very little support equipment other than a truck, trailer, chainsaw, and handtools.  Please pardon the smudges on the lens.




The log here is about 22 feet long.  Note the fence that is smashed under the middle.  Also, the ground slopes down from the big end to the small end.


This is me, 6 feet by 215 pounds, along with my new Husky 3120XP.

So what mill would you use to mill this one in place?  I humbly await your learned opinions.

Thanks,
Jim


Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Bibbyman

I think you'll get a lot of testimony from the owners of the Wood-Mizer LT40 series mills for your application.  Owners will have stories of how they were able to maneuver the mill by hand into some pretty tight spots.  Set up and take down time is the best in the industry. 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Raphael

Depends on what length and form you want to mill it into.
If you are splitting it into two ~11ft. logs I'd go at it with my M7.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

TeenSwinger

It looks like several different types of mills would work in this situation.  An LT40 with hydrolics would make the job easy.  Or you could buck the log and roll it onto a set of home made bunks.

Then you start at the top of the log and work your way down.

Don't forget to scan the log for metal as you go.

Have fun as you make some beautiful lumber.

Peterson ATS 827  Nyle L200  Ebac 800  Bridgewood M-562

beenthere

There must be a story behind that fence under the tree, and the notch on the 'top side' up. We can all learn from them stories.  :)

Burlkraft has some pics up of his new mill, and looks like it would set down nicely around that tree, and you wouldn't have to budge it much or far from it's resting place.  What are the answers to the "depends on the situation, the budget, support equipment, blah, blah, blah"   ???

What is the apparent notch on the top of the log part way down, near the saw in the middle pic?  ???

Must have the chainsaw chaps off for the pics.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

rebocardo

> What is the apparent notch on the top of the log part way down, near the saw in the middle pic?

If you have a very big and very long log that is sitting on uneven ground, that can close the kerf even when using wedges, jam the saw in the middle of the log, or close around the wedges and still pinch the saw, what you can do is this.

Make a wedge on the top, undercut (I usually wedge there too) on the bottom. When it folds in on the top, you stop, then cut through the hinge wood from the top to drop the log on the ground under the other part without you being on your knees next to it. Plus, this prevents the saw being taken for the ride to the ground and still being jammed between two logs. Going by the pictures I would have to assume that is what happened.

Also, this helps prevent the cracking or much pulling of fiber if you are saving the log for sawing and limits it to an inch or less in the middle of the log.

Or ... maybe someone had to rescue a saw  :D


woodbeard

Quote
This is me, 6 feet by 215 pounds, along with my new Husky 3120XP.

So what mill would you use to mill this one in place?  I humbly await your learned opinions.

I think you got two thirds of a mill right there, Jim.  ;)

beenthere

Yes Rebo, but I was prompting Jim to tell the 'real' story.  :) 
I've done notches on top too, but usually use a wedge or two in the kerf to hold the kerf open, then finish the cut up from the bottom. I like straight, square cuts on log ends, not slanty ones. Makes for neater lumber and also neater firewood  :D
Using some limb wood for blocking and cribbing under an unsupported log also helps to control the drop of a suspended downed tree at the bucking cut. And being safe is the most important.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

JimBuis

The "real story"?  This tree was blown down in the storms that struck the St. Louis area about two weeks ago and knocked out the electricity to about a million people. The tree belongs to my son-in-law and is in the yard of one of his rental houses. I have no intention of doing anything with this tree except to make small pieces out of it and throw it onto a burn pile. As a result, there is no concern about how pretty any of the cuts are.

In the pictures, the stump is to the left of the picture. The big log is about 10 feet long and about 36" at the big end and about 32" at the small end.  I think this log is a bit too heavy for an M-7 mill.  The log across the fence is about 12 feet long, 32" at the big end and about 15" at the small end.

The chain link fence and the yard in the background belong to the neighbor. This yard provides no access for a truck and/or trailer mounted mill. My son-in-law's property is not fenced, so a Woodmizer or similar mill could be put into the yard.

If you pulled a trailer mounted mill into the yard, how would you move the second log to get it up onto the mill?

Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Ron Wenrich

My guess would be either a chainsaw mill or a swing blade.  Either one of those can be carried to the tree and set up over top without having to move the log.  For other mills, you need to move the log to the mill, even if you set up next to the log.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Ianab

QuoteVery little support equipment other than a truck, trailer, chainsaw, and handtools

Another vote for the Swingblade   8)

Thats the sort of milling I do with the Peterson  :)

Break the tree down into sensible sized logs, swing them around so they are reasonably level and set the mill up over them. You will want a big cant hook, maybe a winch and/or high lift jack of some sort, a good prybar and a tow strop so you can use your vehicle as muscle. You hopefully dont have to move the log far, usually just roll it over or swivel it around to a better position for milling. If the log is too big to move, up onto bunks then just wedge it in place on the ground and start sawing. You wont be able to saw the last 6", but at that stage the bottom slab will be light enough that you can jack / lever it up and get the bunks under it to finish sawing. Or decided that due to good planning on your part, the worst face was down and there is only firewood left  ;)

A portable bandsaw will handle that size log, but you are pretty much maxing it out. If the next tree is 48"+ then you will be wishing for a swingblade  :D

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

ARKANSAWYER





     I see no real problem that a little orange mill and a few blades can not cure.   If Wanda can split this little stick that little St Louy stub would be no problem.   So what was the question?   ???   Best mill is what you can get your hands on.
ARKANSAWYER

low_48

I milled nothing but urban timber for about 2 1/2 years. I would have loved to had both types of mills. Some real beautiful wood ended up in the tub grinder :'( :'( :'( :'(. It is not unusual for 48"+ diameter logs to end up at the collection yard. I snapped the hard maple handle on my peavy rolling a "tiny" log over on the mill. The times I was really glad I had the bandmill was when I hit concrete used to fill a rotten spot in a crotch, a grouping of nails, staples, etc...... Throwing a band away is alot easier (on the billfold) than retoothing the circular blade. I think I would go with the swinger if I had it to do over again. Pulling those darn 2x24's off the mill and setting them off to the side for straight line ripping latter gets to be a little tiresome.

timcosby

i've pulled 36"x10' lods with my dodge 2500 with ease.... so why can't they be moved?????

Raphael

Actually weight isn't an issue for the M7...
The Mill just doesn't weigh that much.  :D



I got this picture quite some time ago in reply to a query on inverted milling at the Logosol users' bbs.
Somewhere I have a picture of a ~54" wide live edge plank milled inverted and double cut style with a 30" bar on an M7.

I'll need to take some pictures of my own.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

JimBuis

Quote from: timcosby on July 30, 2006, 12:14:32 AM
i've pulled 36"x10' lods with my dodge 2500 with ease.... so why can't they be moved?????

Tim, you are right they can be moved with ease. I was sitting right there with a Chevy one ton dually.  Given the context of the situation, moving them without a grapple would not be wise. One log, half the tree, is laying across the neighbor's fence and into their inaccessible yard. The other log and stump are laying in my son-in-law's rental house yard.  We don't want to ruin already strained relations with the neighbors, nor do we want to damage the lawn of an investment property that will then have to be repaired.

Raphael, I had forgotten about the inverted milling possibility with the M7. I stand corrected. I can now see that having the use of an M7 would have saved a lot of work for me and my son-in-law.

My original question had nothing to do with how to dispose of urban logs or how to get them out of the yard. I was hoping to hear discussion of how different kinds of mills could be used to mill this tree without causing further damage to the yards.

It is clear that the Logosol M7 would have worked well in this application.

I think a swinger would work. Which one or ones might be particularly good? For example, would Peterson's WPF work well here or would the uneven ground be too problematic?  Would an ATS be better? Lucas? Ecosaw?

Arkansawyer, when you used your Wood-Mizer on that log, did you have to split it in two or were you able to mill it with the excessive width of the log protruding out to the side facilitated by the monorail?  Wasn't this the log you used the hydraulic jack to split in two?

Thank you everyone for helping me think through how different mills might have been suitable for this situation.

Jim



Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Part_Timer

Jim

It's hard to tell just how steep that hill side is.  I have an ATS that I know would do it if I could get the logs cross wise on that hill side.  I'm not sure about pushing the head uphill and holding it back as you cut down hill.  how much drop is in the yard over a 10' section of log.  That would help me tell you if I could just do it where it lies.

Not knowing the relations with the neighbors This is what I was thinking.   
   
    I'd cut the log off the fence turn the upper one and mill it.  The damaged fence has to come out anyway so I'd take the damaged part out roll the mill across the opening then mill the lower one after I turned it as well.  Then I'd remove the mill and replace the fence.  I can't comment on the WPF because I've never run one but I'm sure it would be the same if you could turn the logs across the hillside.

    I have cut in the back of enclosed yards before.  I just took one section of fence loose at a joint in the chainlink and then put it back up when we left.  If you had some GOOD friends the power head can be lifted over the fence also.  It will take several friends to do it but it is possible.
Peterson 8" ATS.
The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

dad2nine

Where there is a will there is a way is what I always say. You make due with what you got and get creative to overcome obstacles,  think things through and keep saftey first.


ARKANSAWYER


Yep! that is the one we split with a jack.   SO it can be done in a yard.   A high lift jack and a skidding cone can let you pull large logs though yards with out tearing them up.  I have also put wheels under them and pulled them.   Swingers do shine in this area though.
ARKANSAWYER

Fletch

Hi Jim.
         I`d just carry my Ecosaw swinger in and mill it up down to the bottom bark, right where it is. No drama with the sloping, uneven ground.
Fletch the ecosaw guy

Ianab

The Peterson ATS and Lucas designs are generally easier to set up in an awkward spot. The main saw cradle is smaller and lighter than the big WPF frame. I haven't seen an Ecosaw up close, but they are supposed to be pretty good at handling rough ground too.

I could set up my WPF over that log, no real problem, but an ATS might be easier in a lot of situations.

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

getoverit

I wouldnt hesitate to mill it with my ATS. If it could be cut in half and then swung around to avoid the mill head changing positions directly over the chain link fence, then that reduces the chance ot losing teeth on the blade. If not, then just mill it where it is and dont go too deep with the cut and then tote off the remaining portion of log.

both halves of the log could be milled this way after a move of the mill over the log.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

brdmkr

That log would not be a problem with a Lucas either.  Like other say, the ATS or Ecosaw would likely work pretty well also.  I don't have very much support equipment myself.  I really think that large logs and little support equipment are a pretty good prerequisites for considering swingblades.  There are times that I wish I had a band mill.  Could you get both ???
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

getoverit

I have both a Peterson ATS swingmill AND a fully hydraulic bandmill.  The best of both worlds :)
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

jack

Nice log,  I would take it with a Swingblade, Lucas is my preference.....
just watch out for that fence under the log.....sometimes your having soo much fun you forget about those metallic thingys.....

Jack
GRAB life by the Belly fat and give it a twist!!!!!

Went from 5 employees to one, sorry to see a couple of them go.  Simplify life... building a totally solar run home, windmill pumps my water, and logs keep me warm.

oldsaw

Quote from: woodbeard on July 29, 2006, 01:55:27 PM
Quote
This is me, 6 feet by 215 pounds, along with my new Husky 3120XP.

So what mill would you use to mill this one in place?  I humbly await your learned opinions.

I think you got two thirds of a mill right there, Jim.  ;)

Woodbeard is on my page here.  You want to learn chainsaw milling?  You have your "crash test dummy" right there.  That will give you the least impact, the most experience, and the most personal satisfaction.  Lay out a tarp on the chainsaw side to collect the sawdust in the neighbor's yard while you are cutting, and everyone will live in peace.  Anything that will move it will further damage the yard, especially if it the ground is wet. 

"Low impact" is one of the key advantages of a CSM.  Add to that "portability" and "back yard accessibility".

What ever you do, show us pictures.

Mark

Mark
So many trees, so little money, even less time.

Stihl 066, Husky 262, Husky 350 (warmed over), Homelite Super XL, Homelite 150A

4woody


oldsaw

So, what ever became of the tree?  No pictures?  No updates?  I feel cheated.

Mark

So many trees, so little money, even less time.

Stihl 066, Husky 262, Husky 350 (warmed over), Homelite Super XL, Homelite 150A

Furby

Read reply #8, it was headed for the firewood pile.
That log was only being used as an example. ;)

oldsaw

So, I'm apparently a bit slow on the draw today....or most days, actually.  Oops   :D
So many trees, so little money, even less time.

Stihl 066, Husky 262, Husky 350 (warmed over), Homelite Super XL, Homelite 150A

JimBuis

No pictures because the tree isn't there anymore to take pictures of. ;D  As Furby, that tree is in the firewood pile at the moment.

I really thought that my post with pictures would have gotten an interesting dialogue going on which mills are ideally suited to this sort of urban situation. My inexperienced opinion is that it would be ideal for a swinger, but which one?

Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Ga_Boy

Jim,

A swinger is a swinger.

The differances between manufactures is akin to the differaces between Chevorlet and Ford and Dodge.


For me I like the Peterson but that is what I own.....




Mark
10 Acers in the Blue Ridge Mountains

JimBuis

Quote from: Ga_Boy on August 18, 2006, 09:17:34 AM
Jim,  A swinger is a swinger. The differances between manufactures is akin to the differaces between Chevorlet and Ford and Dodge.
For me I like the Peterson but that is what I own.....  Mark

For me portability or at least the ease with which the mill can be positioned near the log without requiring extensive support equipment or extra help is important.  I have seen manufacturers' videos of some swingers that seems to show that some of them require two men to set it up.  It seems that other brands of swingers can be set up by one person.  That seems to me to be more of a difference than just the "Ford, Chevy, Chrysler" debate.

Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

beenthere

Good, Jim
Now your question is shaping up to what you seem to want --- portability.

Upon re-reading the responses, several seemed to offer ideas along that line.

Do the mills speak to the one-man or two-man (or women as the case may be) set-up needs?  I guess it depends on who can carry how much and how far, too.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Part_Timer

Jim

I can speak only for the ATS I have but here it goes.

First off I don't have the regular set of 20' rails + 6' extensions.  Mine are in sections 13' long.  I splice them in the middle.  When they are stuck together they are a bit of a handfull.  I sure wouldn't want to carry them by myself much more than a 100 yards or so.  When they are broken down though it is not a problem at all.  The only drawback to the split rails is that I have to use my center supports on logs over 9' or so.  If I forget to tighten them and try to make say a 14' long cut the rails will sag in the middle up to 1/4" or so.  I can get away with not using the supports on shorter logs by off setting the splice toward one end one the left and the other end on the right.

As far as setting it up by myself it isn't much of a problem.  you just have to think it out a bit and do it in a certain order so the ends don't fall over. ::)  It is much easire to do with two people but you don't have to.  I'd say it takes me 20 minutes if I'm setting up by myself and about 10 if I have help.

When I load the mill head I like to take the large wheels off when I set it on the trailer   When it is on the trailer I just set one side on the fender and put a wheel on then pick it up and slide the other wheel in.

I find it very hard to load in the truck bed  by myself. As a matter of fact I only tried once and decided that dropping it on the ground would be bad so I get someone to help if I go that route.  Our Dodges set up in the air a bit and it is hard to get the head to slide forward.

When cutting by yourself it is helpfull to have a couple of wedges in your pocket to keep the horizontal cut from closing up and pinching the blade since it is the second cut.  If you have a tailman the horizontal cut is first so this is not necessary.

Sharpening on a swinger only takes about 3 minutes if you are just sharpening and not grinding out chips.  No kidding just 3 minutes for the 6 and 8 tooth blade.  The 12 tooth micro kerf takes a bit longer but not much.

I got to try a clip on slabber at the demo day last week.  it took us about 30-45 minutes to set it up but we had never done it before.  I think about 20 minutes would be about right once you got the hang of it.  It cuts very well.  We cut some 36" wide 14' long white oak table tops with it.  I didn't time it but I'd say it took around 10 minutes to make the full cut.  I wish I had timed it.  All we did was insert wedges to keep the chain from binding and away we went.  When we had about 12" of cut left I put wedges about 2' behind the cut and stood on the far end of the slab.  This way the wedges made the slab pop up off of the chain and bar at the end of the cut.  This way we didn't have to worry about the chain getting pulled off.  If you were by yourself all you need to do is stop pushing as the chain leaves the cut.  If you go to far you might pull the chain off of the back side of the bar.
Sorry this is so long winded but I hope this may answer some of your questions. 

Tom



Peterson 8" ATS.
The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

jack

Jim, 
Im partial to the Lucas 825,  i have been running it for about 5 or so years,  i can fit the whole thing, (grease and shoehorn) into a 98 toyota 4x4 6 foot bed. and go on site,  Setting it up by myself isnt as easy as using a second back.  BUT it is totally do able.

as for moving it around, it has wheels to roll the carriage around,  like a wheelbarrow.  I have set it up by myself in many a back yard. 
The Lucas website shows the mill going down some river in a small, boat, A DUGOUT to  boot, if my memeory recalls correctly.

I have even milled 5 foot diameter trees on a step slope.  where i had to use two ppl to return the saw to complete the cut. 
We couldnt move the log,  no equipment available. BUT we had a guy on the down hill side to stop the carriage from running away...   As for sharpening,  the Lucas Blade has 5 teeth, and the diamond sharpening device 12V to do the job fast.
small nails,  ya there not pleasurable........but the blade eats them......
larger stuff.......not good,  no not good at all........insulators,.. lagbolts,  cables.....
(whos idea is it to place horse shoes in a  tree?) 

I like the Lucas,  because the rails are UP......not one up and one down.  i have used tractors, forlkifts and the like to move logs in and off the mill and dont worry about hitting the rails,  If i had a bottom rail, on the ground. i would have hit it many times.   (I cant see it from under all the sawdust. i would find i twith the forks tho)   
Best thing  i could say is look at your ROI.  how much would a mill cost, Peterson, D + L or any other swinger,  what type of customer service will you get?  PArts? etc......... When i was looking at swingers,  the folks at BAILEYS called me, sent me the video, and put me in contact with other lucas mill owners.  I had no response from Peterson.   I didnt have anyone that had run a peterson that I could talk to.  So my money went to Lucas.   
Imho,  Service is everything,  cost is second.   MY other equipment is VOLVO loaders,  i bought the first Volvo in California, in 1994.  They were hands down ahead of CAT, JOHNDEERE, CASE, adn anyone else...  Their service department was perfect... and i have had 2 of these loaders.  no problems,,,  oh off track i guess........ 10000 hours and no problems,, and no engine work either.   

when you make up your mind. 
let us know and then
WORK that mill  and have fun
Jack
GRAB life by the Belly fat and give it a twist!!!!!

Went from 5 employees to one, sorry to see a couple of them go.  Simplify life... building a totally solar run home, windmill pumps my water, and logs keep me warm.

NZJake

I find if your going portable, at least on the Peterson models. The WPF is much more portable than the ATS, only two skids, 2 lengths of tracks (which come in 4m sections) and the main head to break down VS the ATS which has 4 x uprights, 2 x skids, 2 x drive links, 2 x centre supports and long 6m tracks.

LO/LO is the quicker style to setup with, especially if you are setting up around each log, although, if you set up HI/LO you'ld have the flexabillity of loading logs under the high side (like the Lucas/ATS) or over the low side. The low track also allows easy access to the timber.

The distinct advantage of both the Lucas and ATS is the easy adjustment for rough terrain and log centre alignment.
They are also a little lighter to push up and down the track.

Just some thoughts on the design differences  :).

Cheers, Jake.
Wife says I woke up one morning half asleep uttering thin kerf and high production, I think I need a hobby other than milling?

Captain

I've got to agree with Jake.  A WPF sets up faster than an ATS any day.  Less parts to carry to boot.

Sorry about your no response scenario, Jack.  That just flat doesn't happen when folks contact me.  For the good of the forum readers, Peterson parts are stocked here in the US, and have been for the last few years.

Captain


jack

Thanks Captain,
I should reply, I recieved a phone call after i had purchased my Lucas.    BUT that was almost 7 yrs ago, From my reading and talking to ppl here and on other websites that Peterson has stepped into high gear regarding sales, service, and supply.  Things are looking up..

REgardless what ppl buy, just make sure you have done your home work.
run the numbers and then make your decision.

I so enjoy my mill and getting outside....

Fresh air, with a pinch of exhaust from the mill......
Jack
GRAB life by the Belly fat and give it a twist!!!!!

Went from 5 employees to one, sorry to see a couple of them go.  Simplify life... building a totally solar run home, windmill pumps my water, and logs keep me warm.

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