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Newbie Introduction - Building a Timber Frame Home

Started by Thomas-in-Kentucky, July 29, 2006, 08:33:24 AM

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Thomas-in-Kentucky

THW,

here's a roof cross section:



R value is like R-50, R-45 if you consider the thermal breaks cased by 2x10's that are 48" apart.
Beneath the cross section that I have drawn is a vapor barrier, then 7/8" oak tongue and groove ceilings, supported by purlins on 36 to 48" centers.  The system seems to work fine and supports slate (and standing seam metal) without a problem, but if I had things to do over again, I think I'd dispense with the cathedral ceilings for most of my house and go with a regular "attic space" instead.  I'm not so much worried about condensation or vapor issues.  The problem that I see with a built up cathedral ceiling like I have implemented (and even more so with a SIP based cathedral ceiling) would be if your roof ever leaks - how would you find the leak?  Something to think about.

Yes, I'm considering hydro and wind later, but for now I am starting with solar.  It seems to be the most maintenance free method of producing one's own power.  Far on the other end of the spectrum (no pun intended) would be steam!


bigmish

Quote from: Thomas-in-Kentucky on September 09, 2006, 06:46:26 AM
This picture also shows that my infill insulation has blown out of the walls here and there. 

Thomas-in-Kentucky, I'm also really liking the infill. Can you give details or point to a resource for the method you used to do this?

Thanks, Mischa

Thomas-in-Kentucky


As for the infilled walls on my house - I'm making that up as I go along  :), trying to think about vapor barriers, moisture escape, timber shrinkage, etc. and looking at some similar approaches people have used.  A good book is "The Timber-Frame Home" by Ted Benson.  He has written three books, but this book has a lot of little details about how to enclose and wire a timber frame house.  (although the infill method I arrived at is not particularly like the infill method he describes in his book)  It will take a few years of living with my house to know if I got it right.  I am a little more confident in the roof system that I am using - it is very similar to a friend's house, and his has worked for 10 years.

The foam that I'm using for my walls is the same as my roof.  4'x8' slabs of PolyIso insulation, available in thicknesses up to 4" (I'm using 3" in the wall) from Firestone.  On the inside of the house, I'm covering the braces (and polyiso) with 1" of foam, to reduce the number of thermal breaks.  Then drywall.  On the outside of the house, you will see braces and posts and beams, on the inside of the house, you'll see only posts and beams.  Also on the outside of the house, I intend to cover the polyiso with stucco - either the real stuff or dryvit, depending on who I can find to put the stuff on.  I assume that I'll need some kind of concrete board or thin eps foam as a substrate for the stucco.  All of the timbers that are exposed to the elements are whiteoak.  I hope to post more, including a cross section, when I finish that part of the house.  It is quite possible that I am building a very bad design.  This "infill" is an experiment that constitutes only about 20% of the walls of my house.  The rest are typical SIPs, if SIPs can be called typical.  If my infill experiment doesn't work, I can sippify it 5 years down the road.  Whiteoak will take a _lot_ of abuse.

-Thomas

ScottAR

Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

ScottAR

Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

ScottAR

lookin good...   If your getting the same rains we are, it can't be easy to deal with
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

Thomas-in-Kentucky

Between the wet weather, we're slowly gettin the roof on!  And, we've almost finished applying (installing, hanging, screwing? what is it that you do to SIPs?) all of the sips.  Here's a pic from the 3rd floor loft, looking down into a 2nd floor loft that overlooks the great room.  The windows that you see in this picture are all south facing, with plenty of roof overhang, to get the benefits of passive solar heating without baking in the summer time. (that's the plan - I hope it works to some degree!)



http:/massiehouse.blogspot.com

ScottAR

Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

Max sawdust

Thomas,
Nice looking details. Keep the pics coming.
max
True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

Raphael

That's a really nice hammer beam.

We saw several nice shots of your frame at the Eastern Conference slideshow.
The infilled entry got a very positive response.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Thomas-in-Kentucky

Wish I could have made the conference..  had to work on the roof of the house though.  :(

My timber frame workshop instructor said he might show pictures of my frame at the conference.  Guess he made good on his threat.  :)  Glad to hear the folks liked the infill.  If I had it to do over, I might have built the entire house that way.  To me the house is one big experiment... that I'll have to live with.

-Thomas

ScottAR

Bump...

I like the copper... 

Look out... it's in the 30's and raining buckets...
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

ScottAR

congrats on the solar power!!!

Better get back to roofing though...  Last night, a big ol' rain cloud
went by here headed your way.   
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

Thomas-in-Kentucky

Yep,  rained here last night.  There are a few holes in my felt paper, so I took on a pudddle of water on the third floor.  Need to get back on the roof, but been plagued by the flu bug and a cold!  That's unfortunate, because it looks like we have some really nice weather headed our way - great roofing weather - but no good for getting over a cold/bug.  :(

TRying to pick out an outdoor wood furnace so we can get some heat/dryness in the house.  Started another thread on that topic over in the General board - if anyone has any advice or stories to relate about their outdoor wood furnaces, I'd really appreciate it.

Running all of our power tools on solar is a nice feeling.  My bro-in-law took his Honda generator back home!  :)

Thanks,
Thomas


Norm

Thanks for keeping this bumped up to remind me Scott. :)

I keep hollering at Patty to show her details of your home Thomas, I know the roof must be a pain to install but what a beautiful look. The eyebrow dormer is one of my favorite details but the whole design is awesome, keep up the good work.

Max sawdust

Thomas,
I must ask, was this your first TF project?  If so, were you a craftsman by trade, prior to undertaking this project?
Sorry,
Just curious since it is quite an amazing accomplishment for the "home builder"
max
True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

Thomas-in-Kentucky

Max,

I am an engineer (electrical/mechanical) by training, not a craftsman by any stretch of the imagination.  Until 3 years ago, I didn't even own a chisel or circular saw.  Bought my sawmill and first chainsaw in the past 5 years.  Sawed about 150 cross ties, two deer blinds patterns, three barn patterns, and then started sawing for my house.

I have had some help along the way.  "Neighborhood loggers" have helped me learn enough about  the "logging and skidding" thing to keep me from getting killed.  (On the other hand, one neighbor "stuck it to me" by selling me a bulldozer "with lots of issues" when I should have known better.)  The fellow that taught the one week timberframing course that I took has been here on three occasions to help.  I've also had some skilled stick framers helping out now and then, although (with one exception) none of them has ever seen a timberframe other than this one.  The exception is the stick framer that went to the timberframe class in TN with me.  Other than the workshop I took, where we built a 12x16 cabin frame, this is my first real timberframe project.  (warm-up projects include buildign the timberframe saw horses and a bent to reinforce one of the sheds we were cutting in one winter).

I laid out all of the timbers (about 600 of them, not counting braces) on AutoCAD LT, which is a 2D package.  The file is ridulous to look at now - it is so dense.  I would estimate that I spent over 1,000 hours on the drawings (and checking the drawings).  If I were doing it over, I would have bought and learned a 3D cad package (or simplified the design! or bought a design to start from.).

I tried to stack the timbers in the barns so that we wouldn't have to dig them all out just to get to the first one, but even so, we spent countless hours extracting the timbers and restacking them during the raising "months".  I wasn't sure what order I would raise the timbers (the foundation wasn't even excavated, I didn't know what size crane we would have, etc.), so it was hard to plan ahead.  Also, instead of "drawing","logging","sawing" and "notching" in a linear order, I had everything in a mixed up order.  Hard to know how many logs (and what size) to drag out when you haven't even finished the design/engineering for the house.  Hard to design a timberframe and pick the right joinery until you've cut some different kinds of joinery.  (chicken and the egg problem) With 50 timbers left to notch, I had to go back in the woods and get more logs.  (in fact, I'm 3 floor joists and a few porch posts short - so I'll be back in the woods looking for white oak logs that fell in an icestorm 4 years ago!).

Being extremely naive was a prerequisite to starting this project.  If I had it to do over, I would have built it half as large, and would have divided that project into two "finishable" phases.  I really had no clue how much over my head I was going.  We are going through and sanding the frame now... this is the third time!  First time was after notching the timbers before stowing in the barns, second time was right before raising the bents (touch-up to remove rat poop, pidgeon crap, greasy finger prints, and mud), this time is to try and undo the effects of weathering (tan lines left from the ratchet straps, faded and mildewed timbers, and more mud!) but now it is real fun because the timbers have linseed oil on them that clogs up the sanding paper every 60 seconds or so!  Everytime we have sanded the timbers, we thought it would be the last time.

It has cost a lot more than I thought too - not necessarily the frame itself, but all of the labor and materials in finishing the house after we raised the frame.  Going to Lowes and spending $1,000 never happened while we were working on the frame.... now it is a weekly occurence, with no definite end in sight.

I try to stay positive on my blog, but since there are a lot of people on this forum who are likely to tackle a project like this, I thought I'd better share some of the downsides.   The reality is that I have really enjoyed almost all aspects of the project.  Better than working a real job and paying someone else to build something, since I love building things.  Even though the process/path I've followed has not been ideal, the results are so far exceding my expectations.  Another way to say it: "if someone had hired me, I would have been fired long ago, but I haven't managed to fire myself."  :)

-Thomas

Max sawdust

Thanks for sharing the "blood and gore" of your project.  The old saying "hindsight is 20/20" sure rings true ;)
What separates the intelligent from the not so intelligent is the ability to learn from mistakes.  (Just takes ones like me a little longer ::))

I appreciate your point on the amount of money pouring out to finish the house.  (It is easy to say "hey the frame if free, right off the land" ;D)  BUT, SIPS, windows, plumbing, electrical, stain on and on and on add up >:(

Hence the reason I have not started on the same endeavor YET...
Thanks for the insight.
max
True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

Don P

It is easy to be overly optimistic about what it'll take to finish. Or it's hard to get and keep a good budget  ???. We're getting ready to shut down at work for a few months again as soon as we can get heat enough to keep plumbing safe through the winter. After the glory is done you really start blowing through the money.

I of course never had this problem building our stick framed house, we were broke from day 1 :D.

Raphael

Quote from: Thomas-in-Kentucky on December 17, 2006, 12:10:28 PM
I try to stay positive on my blog, but since there are a lot of people on this forum who are likely to tackle a project like this, I thought I'd better share some of the downsides.   The reality is that I have really enjoyed almost all aspects of the project.  Better than working a real job and paying someone else to build something, since I love building things.  Even though the process/path I've followed has not been ideal, the results are so far exceding my expectations.  Another way to say it: "if someone had hired me, I would have been fired long ago, but I haven't managed to fire myself."  :)

  I'd say we've all (owner builders) got that in common, the ability to focus on the progress not the setbacks.  I'm happy with what's been accomplished here as long as I don't look at the budget or the lack of a workshop (I really wanted to start with a barn).  Starting a project of this magnitude is always a leap of faith.  I knew I was in trouble (financially) the day we signed the construction loan.   I knew I was well beyond being in trouble the day we refinanced it.  With a little luck I'll be out of debt (again) and ready to start saving for retirement at age 74, and by age 104 I should be set for life.  :D

  I've had the same pat phrases I picked up from business mentors (and other sources) going over and over in my head.  Things like, 'To succeed you don't have to be a big shot just a little shot that keeps shooting'.
  FIDO - Forget It and Drive On, is a favorite although I've adopted the "Finding Nemo" wording, "Just keep swimming, just keep swimming..."
  'The man who says it cannot be done should not interefere with the man who is doing it.'  OR as long as I keep doing it I won't have time to say it can't be done.  Although I've often been the guy who goes out and does something simply because 'they' say it can't be done.

  The parts I've enjoyed the most have come from the unexpected problems along the way.  I really enjoy the process of working out a solution to a challenge I wasn't prepared to deal with, the more unique the challenge and solution the better I like it.  I think that attitude is a must for the owner builder.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

ScottAR

The saying I heard recently; " If your going through h*ll, keep going."
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

Raphael

Quote from: ScottAR on December 19, 2006, 01:45:58 AM
The saying I heard recently; " If your going through h*ll, keep going."
On "Miami Ink"?

Reminds me of another one I saw recently, not quite the same idea but...
"Stop, Drop, and Roll doesn't work in h*ll".
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

ScottAR

One of the extreme engineering shows on Discovery about Katrina repairs...   
The workers were extracting a fishing trawler out of a *wad* of other
boats while the goofy host was asking these fishermen what they
were gonna do.  That was the fishermen's reply. 
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

Raphael

That's it... I knew it was on TLC or Discovery.
  That was a whole lot of crane they were using to fetch those boats, there would be no problem lifting an entire frame with that.  Trawlers are pretty rugged craft, I was impressed that they were able to sail the second one home that evening.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Raider Bill

I watched episode also, Pretty impressive crane and pole barge.
Great blog!

I'm going to start my Owner Builder project in Feb if all goes according to plan. First I need to locate the perfect site then start dozing.
Looking real hard at ICF's
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

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