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Railway grades

Started by sawguy21, July 02, 2006, 02:07:11 AM

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sawguy21

I think we have some railroaders here who might have an answer. This past week a locomotive and flatcar derailed on a nasty grade killing two crewmembers and seriously injuring the third. The media reported it as an 8% grade but that seems excessive. What is the maximum?
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Brad_S.

In main line service, anything over 1.5% is trying, 2.5% was the steepest on the Erie/Erie Lackawanna on which my grandfather worked and whose history I research. There are some grades in mountainous areas which may reach or exceed 3%, but I don't believe 8% would be negotiable without a cog system.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Burlkraft

Where's Deadwood when ya need him ??? ???
Why not just 1 pain free day?

Brad_S.

I swiped this from a TRAINS magazine site:

Percentage of grade: In U.S. practice, the feet a track climbs in each 100 feet of run, expressed as a percentage: thus, a 1.0% grade climbs 1 foot in every 100 feet. Some railroads use feet-per-mile. The equivalent to a 1.0% grade is thus 52 feet per mile.

Steep grade: In North American practice, grades are often considered as follows. These are by no means hard-and-fast categories, nor anything that is documented. They are merely a comparison of main-line grades.
0.1% to 0.4%: mild; the grade obtained on a highly engineered super-railroad
0.4% to 1.0%: average; used on super-railroads in difficult terrain
1.0% to 1.5%: steep; used by a super-railroad in very difficult terrain
1.5% to 2.2%: heavy; common for a railroad engineered to moderate standards
2.2% to 3.3%: very heavy; unusual and used only in very difficult terrain
3.3% plus: exceptionally steep; almost never encountered on main lines
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Paul_H

Link

This story is a little more accurate.That is a nasty stretch of track in there but CN has had a lot of problems since taking over the line from BC Rail a few years ago.
My mum's dad,an engineer was killed in January 1950,when his locomotive(engine 53) sheared off a snowslide and sent them into Seton Lake just South of Lillooet.The Fireman was also killed.



Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

sawguy21

Thanks, a maximum of something less than 4 seems a lot more reasonable. There is also an EXTREMELY steep road that goes over this mountain from Pavillion to Clinton but it does not follow the rail route. It was cut as a shorter route to the northern goldfields but was impossible for freight wagons.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Tom

That was a good article and the authors should be commended for not editorializing.  Reporting is becoming a lost art.  While stories of the families and those involved border on it, the authors refrained from personally laying blame.  I was impressed with their description of families and friends as well as the work histories of the employees.  So many times, people are lost in stories like this when the direction is turned toward company's and hardware.

I see where the 8 percent grade may have come from .  there is mention of a "sharp eight per cent left-hand curve. "

Paul_H

Roy,

We took these pics last year when we went to Lac La Hache to see Lindsay at D&L Double Cut.

The first pic is at the ranch on top taken from the Kelly Lake end of the Pavillion Mt pass looking toward Pavillion(and Lillooet)





dropping down toward Pavillion which is off to the left of the picture.



This last pic is taken from the same spot but is looking over toward the Fraser River and the area where the wreck was.


Tom,

the railroading community is still tight knit here and it has shaken things up.The crew lived in small towns and until a few years ago the railway was the life line.Pemberton here only had a highway since the mid 1960's.Before that everything and anything came by rail,automobiles included.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

sawguy21

That is a very rugged area. Your last two pics don't do justice to that hill though ;D Just after I reached the top, I met a car with American plates going south. Wonder if they had any idea what awaited them.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Paul_H

Another link with a lot of pictures of the highway between Lillooet and  Cache Creek. Pavillion is around the halfway point.We travell through here often on our way to Kamloops and Calgary.Very little traffic but lots of wildlife,Deer, Mt Sheep,Bear etc.

annudder link

You're right Roy,it's hard to appreciate the steepness of that area(Kelly Lake switchbacks are memorable,eh?)  :)
.When I was a kid we often rode the passenger train through that country and it was spectacular.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Tom

I have been on switch-backs like that in North Carolina.  It makes a Florida boy cringe. :D

Something I always found humorous about driving in the mountains.   I would be doing my best to keep up a decent pace on roads like that and some local would come flying by me like I was going backwards.  He was probably "donald ducking' that flat-lander all the way.   :D

Then I'll get on I-95 here in Florida and there will be this car with a line of traffic behind it and it will be going, tentively, 50 mph.  When you get closer, you realize it has North Carolina plates.  I've never figured out what scares them so much about a long, straight, flat road.  :D

Bro. Noble

Tom.

I think I might know the answer to your puzzlement.  My uncle Tim lived in Fla for a short time in the 60's.  Tim always had a fast car and was a very exciting driver to this (at the time) teenage boy.  Well uncle Tim almost lost his driving privilages during his stay in your sunny state.  He said he kept getting behind a long line of cars on a perfectly straight roadl  He had a red chevy super sport rag top at the time and would be going around 100 by the time he got around the front car.  He said sometimes it was some old fogey in the front car,  but lots of times it was the law.  Uncle Tim was scared of driving on those straight Florida highways :D :D
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Don P

We do have fun watching the flatlanders negotiate the roads around here. "Look out Ethel, its a CURVE!" Brake lights on the caddy as it creeps around the corner. They get real nervous when they have to do that downhill.
I can hear visitors on the state road sometimes, they'll be honking the horn at every corner. My M-I-L counted 45 corners between the house and the secondary road to town.
Our driveway is something like 28%, lock em if you got em. We have a shot somewhere of when I spun the motorhome tires on the grade and had to hold the brakes while my wife hooked up the pickup and pulled me up. That weren't near as exciting as the time I hit ice while taking it down  :o. The first time Michelle's Dutch relatives came up they sat in the car for a composure pause after her sis got them up the drive.

I think it takes at least 30% to slow down a witness  ;D

Ianab

You might like this NZ street then.

http://www.ourshop.co.nz/baldwinstreet.htm

38% slope at it's steepest  :o

They have a running race up it every year... no thanks  :D

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

beenthere

Driveways are limited to no steeper than 12% around here now, or the EMS/Fire Dept. will not come up the drive. That could smart.  ;)

When first married and in an apartment in Ames, Iowa, we were but a few feet from a mainline E-W RR that was said to be the steepest grade in IA. Don't know what it was in % but the long trains were barely able to make the grade, and were pouring the power on when passing at 5am every morning. Would shake the coffee pot off the stove if we forgot and left it there.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Larry

Grandpa, along with his eight brothers homesteaded in the mountains out in Colorado.  They had to travel roads most steep in model "T"s.  Gravity fed gas line with the tank in the back...some sections they went up backwards so gas would flow to the engine.  Grandma sometimes set on the front fender with a rock to place under the wheel...sometimes brakes didn't hold on steeper slopes.  Roads were one lane gravel with few pull offs.  Rock slides sometimes closed the road for couple of months.  Dad is 87 and quite young when he was out there...has trouble at times remembering all the hardships they went through.

They were all farmers in land meant for ranchers...and later the oil barons.  None faired well.

Thanks for the link and pictures Paul_H...brought back memories of Grandpa and Grandma.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

getoverit

I watched a special last night on steam locomotives, and aparently there is a narrow guage train in Peru that boasts about being the second highest altitude running train in the world. They did mention that one part of the track from the valley to the top of the mountain was approaching 5%, and that most trains couldnt climb anywhere near this steep of an incline.

The special was on thenational geographic channel.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

sprucebunny

Speaking of steep, here is a local tourist attraction http://www.thecog.com/cog_history.php with special built steam engines.

This next link has some pictures of the old Maine Central line thru Crawford Notch. http://www.thebluecomet.com/mecmountain.html  The Mountain Division line has 2.2% grade. I used to enjoy following the train up the notch in the evenings. You could see it high above you on the side of the mountain crossing the "Frankenstien Trestle"
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

highpockets

I ain't sure about trains but I experienced I-68 between Hagerstown MD and Morgantown WV with the camper and the F-350.  The grade wasn't so bad but it was the curves at the bottom.  Slow down at the bottom and fight the next hill.   Give me flat country.
Louisiana Country boy
homemade mill, 20 h.p. Honda & 4 h.p. for hydraulics.  8 hydraulic circuits, loads, clamps, rotates, etc.

sawguy21

This is turning into an interesting thread. The railway up Mt Washington is really something. Did anyone else notice the nose down attitude of the boiler? A lot of them evolved to meet special needs and resulted in some unique designs. I have seen the remains of old mine railroads and some of them must have been downright scary to ride on.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Paul_H

I ended up spending the better part of an hour reading up on the cog railways on Google and Wikepedia as well as Joan's link.

Interesting reading!
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

CHARLIE

One July, me and my family rode the cog train up Pike's Peak and there was a snowstorm going on when we got to the top.

When I worked for the Florida East Coast Railway, I didn't know what an incline was. ;D There were some tracks that had a very slight grade and we had to know those for when we were kicking cars. 8)
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Deadwood

The steepest line that I know of is in North Carolina on the CSXT Railroad, and I think it is 3% or something like that, but because of the grade, the extra crews needed to shove the trains up the grade and all of that, they route their freight out around it now.

Thes steepest grade I have actually climbed myself was in Kentucky or Tenn. I am not sure exactly where it is, but between Cinncinatti Ohio and Corbin Kentucky, there is a grade called Turkey Mountain. It is about a 2% grade and I was not liking the ride. Lots of curves, lots of greasers and losts of weight. I was afraid I would lose traction more than once, and use all my air on the way down the other side. It was a great experience...after it was over, but I was whiteknuckled going into the curves, tunnels, bridges etc.

Now the steepest grade I have ever seen myself is the 7% grade that the T runs on in Boston. It is basically just a commuter line though with one or two cars running on caternary wires. It was darn steep I can tell you that and was called Chestnut Hill. The crazy thing was, the tracks run right over the street so when you operate there, you have to watch out for cars, other cars and all that. It was pretty crazy, but then again, Boston is crazy!!

As for the 8% grade you first mention...I have never heard of such a grade. I think the reporter was a bit confused.

thurlow

    I've seen references that the Saluda Mountain track (near Ashville) approached 5 %.  Shay........gear drive........locomotives were used to log the Smoky Mountains and other places in the early part of the last century, but I'm not sure what grade they would handle.
Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

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