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Has anyone heard of this stuff.......?

Started by FC_PineKnot, June 30, 2006, 03:08:28 PM

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FC_PineKnot

I've got about 2500 BF of green and air-dried SYP lumber that I want to use to build a fence and a large gazebo.  I can take the lumber to a place about 90 miles away that will pressure treat the dried boards for about $200 / MBF.  So after the green stuff dries, I can get this done for about $500 + my time and gasoline.

While looking for other options, I came across this website: http://www.cedarcide.com/wood.asp
The product listed as CedarTreat claims to penetrate green or dry wood of all species to scavenge the water, turn it to alcohol and purge it from the wood.  Among other things, it claims to completely solve the problem of future water damage while doing away with the need for kiln drying.  And the cost could be less than ½ of what the pressure treatment would be.  I can't list all the claims here, so check out this website before you get to my questions below.

I called Mr. Glassel of Cedarcide and spoke to him about his products and how they worked.  He was extremely patient in answering all my questions and very forthcoming with information.  It was so amazing that I was immediately skeptical!  So I began to search the Forum and the Internet for some references to this product.  I could find no mention of it on the Forum, and very few references on the Internet.  I did find a woodworking forum with comments on some trial uses in making wooden bowls.  I also found some info on using Nanotechnology on wood products from a Canadian news article.  I found no bad comments on the product, but I also didn't find any raving reviews like I would have expected from a product that does what this company claims.

In the course of our conversation, Mr. Glassel mentioned that he worked with Mississippi State University on developing the product.  So I called a professor there (got his name from the MSU School of Forestry website) and asked about Mr. Glassel and his product.  He did recognize Mr. Glassel's name, but was NOT very forthcoming with info (maybe because of patents, liability, etc. – I don't really know).  He did admit that MSU provided input to the development of the product, but that MSU did NOT perform any research or testing of the product itself.

I'm in no way trying to endorse OR slam this product – all I know about it is what I've been told in these conversations and emails with Mr. Glassel.  I'm not trying to promote it or sell it – I want to use it for myself!  What I want to know is, has anyone here actually seen, heard of or used this product, and if so, does it REALLY work? 

I always think of the old saying "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!"  But if this is for real, can you imagine the possibilities for its use in our profession?

Please let us know what you've heard or seen about this stuff.

Tom

It looks like you are setting yourself up to be the Forum testor for this stuff.  You're right.  If it is so good, It is either on the market for only a day or the man is a poor marketeer.  Keep in mind "snake oil".  It could be that he will have a path beat to his door, but silent sales don't speak very loudly.

I think it worth trying.  Just think of the real time it will take to prove the product.  Most treated woods are guarunteed for, somewhere in the neighborhood of, 30 years.  You might have to wait on your fence.  :D

getoverit

This really looks interesting...

the only part of the whole web page that I dont understand is that they say it will provide a "construction window" of up to 90 days...

Later in their hype it says it prevents everything  from decay to termites.

I see where they are willing to do a demo on their product. This might be a good way to get a sample of it to try out.

I also wondewr how much it is.... they never do say...
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

Woodwalker

Don't know anything about this product, but they (CedarCide) have been around a few years and they have been marketing several cedar based pest control products. Mulch, shavings, liquid. There was a set-up about 30 miles from here, where they were chipping the cedar.  Guess they moved their operation, last time I passed there the site was closed.
Just cause your head's pointed, don't mean you are sharp.

etat

It seems to me that they must be really smart, especially with the way that they use words like........
Quotethe closing and drying of the Hydrogen tails of the Hydroxyl Molecular group found in wood media

 Heck they even sell a mosquito fogger to put the stuff in to kill mosquito's!     :P :P :P
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

woodbowl

I'm wondering if this is another product that is using sodium silicate in a form simular to "Timbersil". http://www.timbersil.com/ because it states the use of silicon and also mentions a glue like property.

To me it sounds like a liquid glass type product, (sodium silicate) the active ingredient in head gasket repair products. When added to the radiator, it makes it's way to a leaky area such as a hole in the radiator, heater core and even high pressure areas such as a blowen head gasket. It seals cracked blocks as well and holds up well as long as the engine does not run hot, opening up the crack again. It is availible at the drug store in a pure form and also used as a glue to paste card board boxes together.

Could it be that liquid glass, when formulated to penetrate wood by thinning, mixing with oil or other liquids, travels into the wood and solidifies, resulting in a sealed inpenetrable board?

There is another product that Sherwin Williams sells that stiffins weak and rotten wood to render it useful again. The name slips my mind at the moment, but I know at least one person that is a believer and uses it. This too sounds like a liquid glass product.

Since all this is new and I haven't heard much feedback from proven results, I am cautious but slill very optimistic about it. I'm already thinking about how to mix my own homemade treatment and how to apply it.
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

FC_PineKnot

Tom – very funny!!!!!!!!   :D  Maybe that's why the stuff is not well known – it takes years to find out if it really works!  I'm thinking about using it for everything ABOVE ground, so if it does fail, I won't have to dig up any posts with concrete around them!

There are several charts and descriptions on the website, but you have to dig around for some of them.  From my conversations with Mr. Glassel and what I can decipher from the web info, here's how my feeble mind thinks it is supposed to work: 

The proprietary mixture called CedarTreat contains the cedar oils (for fungicide and insect treatment) and a Dow Corning "small molecule" (nano-technology??) (with the silicons).  This is mixed in varying ratios with a readily available solvent like Calumet 142.  Supposedly the solvent "carries" the mixture through the wood fiber cells causing the H2O to be converted to alcohol, which then flashes off through the board (there's pictures of something foaming out of the treated boards as they cure.)  After the curing process – 72 hours or more – the silicon seals in the cedar oils and creates a barrier to any other liquid penetration.  This may not be exactly correct because I recently lost my rocket scientist license to practice chemistry.  ::) :P ;)

There are 3 different products, but the CedarTreat is the only one with the nanotechnology.  The varying treatment rates seem to be degrees of coverage for cost savings.  However, the differences in cost between the full treatment and the "180 day construction window" (which means treat it, stack it outdoors and build with it in 180 days or less) is so slight, it doesn't seem worth the risk to the lumber. 

What really intrigues me is that I could saw green lumber, immediately treat it with this stuff, then use it to build indoors or out in just a few days without using a kiln for drying.

If you buy the stuff premixed in a small quantity, it's pretty expensive - $200 / 5 gallons.  But a 55 gallon drum of the solvent and 3 gallons of the concentrate will treat everything I need and then some, at a cost cheaper than the pressure treatment process located 90 miles from me.  If it does perform miracles, then I can buy more of the concentrate to make another batch.

I'm leaning toward doing it just to see how well the stuff works.  If I do, I promise to post pictures and follow-ups on it – as long as everyone promises not to horse laugh me here if I get duped!   

Don P

A mason on one job described a science fair project he had done in grade school, for his age I would guess in the '50's. He had used formaldehyde as the solvent and sodium silicate to "petrify" wood. He said it worked great and seemed to stop shrinkage. I'm curious enough to watch  ;D.

PineNut

This looks too good to be true. Their web site seems to say cedar is good for what ails you (snake oil.)  They give several charts of treatment information but I can't seem to find anything about how well their product performs.

I would like to have a treatment setup that could use this type of chemical and procedures but for now I will stay with my borate treatment.

beenthere

So it is the CedarTreat that you are interested in trying.
I hope you try it, and also hope that you have a set of boards (or whatever you are applying it to) as a test set with no treatment, but all other things equal.  I'm not sure why, if it is so great, that the seller Mr Glassel, doesn't have such test results in his advertising. Maybe you can be his 'proof' that it either works as claimed or doesn't work as claimed.

It would be interesting to hear from others who have purchased this product, and evaluated its results, and who have then expanded their purchases to larger quantities based on the success of its application. If it works as claimed, then his business will (or should) be booming.

I hope it is real successful for you and am anxious to hear about the results. No horse laughs from here if it doesn't, I promise.  ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

getoverit

I'm interested in the results too! I'm a beliver that there must be a less expensive way to preserve wood from the elements and insects than the current pressure treating method.

If this works, then I can truthfully say that I will soon be a customer. There is an abundance of free pine logs down here, and if I could sell a "green" treated product I'm sure it would sell great here and give me another revenue stream.

PLEASE keep us informed???
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

LeeB

I'm curious what the silicon does to blades. LeeB
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

woodbowl

Quote from: LeeB on July 02, 2006, 01:02:12 AM
I'm curious what the silicon does to blades. LeeB

I've heard that cedar has a lot of silica in the wood. I don't really know, but I do know it dulls my band blades a lot sooner.
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

FC_PineKnot

Well, since no one seems to have heard of this stuff besides me, I bit the bullet today and ordered enough to treat all my lumber, with some left over to experiment with.  I'll take lots of pictures and notes on how well the CedarTreat works.  If anyone has suggestions as to the best ways to treat and test various types of lumber, species of wood, etc, so I can make accurate conclusions, please feel free to offer them!

It will probably be a couple of weeks before I'm ready to start.  I have to construct some type of vessel to hold the solution and the lumber for treatment.  I'm leaning towards a vat/tub that will hold a dozen or so 2x6x16 boards (edged upwards) with a cover on it that has pvc piping with multiple spray nozzles.  By using a small pump to recirculate and spray the solution, I hope to minimize the total quantity of mixture needed as compared to filling up the vat with enough solution to cover all the boards.

I have to say that Mr. Glassel has been very patient to answer all my questions.  And he has been very consistent with his answers, which says a lot to me!  I've also talked to him personally and he has been very cordial.  He has assured me I won't be disappointed with the results.  So, time will tell.

LeeB  & Woodbowl– I did ask him about the effect CedarTreated lumber had on circular saw blades.  He says the solution doesn't actually contain silicon, but instead has Silanes.  I'm sure this is still some derivative of silica, but maybe not as abrasive (?).  Anyhow, he says the cedar oil in the treated lumber is a very good lubricant, therefore making sawing easier.  I'll know as soon as my first board cures, and I'll keep everyone posted.

Ctate – if this stuff works, I WILL be ordering some of that cedar oil mosquito spray to keep down these West Nile mosquitos around here!!!!!!!!!


::) ::) ::) ::)

Don P

Hold the phone,
Silanes/siloxanes are great waterproofers for masonry. One of our members told me about them for some old masonry restoration we had going on, seems to work great. My only thought is that it was supposed to be bonding to the silica in the masonry (I think).
Well, you've really got my curiousity up, we even said we wished there was something like that for wood, that would penetrate, lock in, and waterproof from within.
Please keep us informed, throw my chunk in some good rich, damp, black, leafmoldy, hedgerow dirt  ;D.

getoverit

I also would like to see a piece of this stuff set into the ground like a fence post, in some somewhat moist ground and some of it left sticking up above the ground.
If it was in a place where mold is an issue ( as in the shade), so much for the better.

also a piece of it left in open sunlight as though it was a piece of decking material.
I'm really interested in this as it may be a market for "green" treated lumber that would satisfy those that are scared of chemically treated lumber such as CCA and creosote. 

Is there any information on the toxicity of this product? Is it safe for use around farm animals such as horses and cows?
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

Stephen1


Interesting how this all goes down.The coments from everyone, the interest it generates, Sure glad someone took the big step and bought some. What does it do the colouring of the wood?
Is there any UV protection?which is the biggest killer of all.
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

beenthere

FC_pineknot
Touch base with MSU again and ask them about a good experiment, as I'd think a set of non-treated boards to sit alongside the treated ones would give the best information. Adding variables than one only confuses any comparisons of the end results.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

DanG

FC_pineknot, I'm interested in learning the results of your project, too.

One thing I noticed in an earlier post, you mentioned putting your posts in concrete.  My understanding is that you shouldn't do that.  It is much better to backfill the hole with gravel, so the water can drain away from the post.  If you need the vertical support, put the concrete in the bottom of the hole, top that with some gravel, put in the post and backfill with gravel. ;)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

FC_PineKnot

Quote from: DanG on July 19, 2006, 02:20:42 PM
One thing I noticed in an earlier post, you mentioned putting your posts in concrete. My understanding is that you shouldn't do that. It is much better to backfill the hole with gravel, so the water can drain away from the post. If you need the vertical support, put the concrete in the bottom of the hole, top that with some gravel, put in the post and backfill with gravel. ;)

DanG - the DIY book I bought at the box store said "put 3 inches of gravel in bottom of hole, then set post.  Add 2 more inches of gravel around post, then pour concrete around post, sloping it at the top to drain away water."  It sounds like a lot of work to me!  So I'll try it your way without the concrete bottom.  I'm sure this old hard red clay will be enough vertical support!  I guess the main thing is good drainage away from the post.

I've been deciding on building a vat  vs.  some type of sprayer system to apply the preservative solution.  I think it will be a lot easier (and cheaper), just a little slower (less boards at a time.)

I hope the CedarTreat will be here next week.  Maybe I can have everything ready by then and start treating a few boards for testing.  I plan to cut some 4x4 posts this weekend for the fence.

I'll keep you posted.


mur

DanG makes a point that my Electrical Inspector and BC Hydro folks used to make.  When you dug an underground trench up to BC Hydro's post (CCA treated?? - green treated pine) they made you put heavy plastic sheeting between the pole and the concrete to "set" the underground conduit - sort of a "thrust block" affair.  They maintained the concrete and the wood "reacted" and weakened the wood if the plastic barrier wasn't there. 
Don't dream it, be it.

FC_PineKnot

Well, I guess everyone thinks I bailed out on the CedarTreat preservative, but I didn't!  Just been real busy.

I received the 50 gallon barrel a few weeks ago.  Since then, I've decided to build a vat to soak the lumber in.  I'm building it from sheet metal and will secure it in a wooden frame for support.  We started cutting the frame out today.  I'm supposed to meet a neighbor with a metal brake first thing in the morning to bend the sheet metal pieces for the vat.  I hope to have some pics to post tomorrow night, but I noticed the photo gallery is "under construction".  Does that mean I won't be able to post the pics?

I put some of the CedarTreat in a 5 gallon bucket today to treat the ends of the 2x4's I'll be using for feet on the frame.  The stuff is almost clear, with a distinct cedar smell.  I was amazed at how fast the stuff penetrated the wood.  The 2x4's had been air drying for several months, and still the stuff penetrated to a level several inches above the liquid level in the bucket.  You could almost see the stuff moving up the board!  And there was a definite reaction with small bubbles foaming out from the boards.  I left one 3 foot 2x6 piece in the bucket tonight.  I'll cut it up in increments tomorrow to see how well the preservative penetrated.

Hope to be able to post more results and some pics tomorrow night.

beenthere

Glad to hear about your progress. Hope you know for sure that the sheet metal being used for your vat will not react with the treatment. Sometimes their is a reaction that will cause the solution to turn black. Just a 'heads-up' as I don't have any information, just past experience with other wood treatments. Either stainless steel or plastic vats were needed. Sometimes a fiberglass lining in a plywood vat or just a plastic like Visqueen was used to keep the solution away from metal.  Try a steel nail in some solution and see what happens for a test.

What color is the preservative? 

Yup about the gallery. We all miss it and am sure da Boss is working very hard to fix it. Hope he is doing ok with it.  ::)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

getoverit

I'm still *VERY* interested in this stuff and am waiting on results from some of your tests to see if I want to spend the cash on it. I sure hope it works out for you so I can finally find a use for all of this pine I have mounded up around here ;)
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

FC_PineKnot

Well, I got the metal bent, and the frame constructed yesterday.  Got some pics - will post them when the gallery is fixed.  Still have to assemble the metal for the vat, and attach it to the frame.  Got to put the ends on and then seal them and the center joint.  I'm making the vat 17 feet long, but I used 2 ten foot pieces of metal so I can extend it if necessary (probably won't, but you never know!)  Hard to explain all the details of construction(typing!) - the pics will do a better job of explaining.

beenthere - I asked Mr. Glassel about the solution reacting with the galvanized metal before I purchased it and he said there should be no problem.  But I did place a piece of the galvanized metal and a couple of galvanized nails in a small amount of the solution, and there was no visible reaction with either.  Oh, and the solution is clear, almost colorless, just a slight brownish tint.

I treated the 2x4's for the frame legs Friday.  I was amazed at how quickly the stuff penetrated and traveled up the part of the boards that were above the fluid level.  I also treated a few scrap pieces and cut them up Saturday to see how deep the penetration was.  Looks like it was all the way through.  Supposed to let them cure for at least 72 hours, so maybe tomorrow I'll slice up a few more and see what it looks like.

In all honesty, I guess the only way to know it works is to treat my posts and boards, build the fence and gazebo, stain it or paint it (for UV protection), and then wait to see how well it holds up to the elements!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, how could I ever convince someone else to pay me to treat their lumber if I won't use it on my own!!   ;D  And, if it doesn't work as advertised, I can at least keep someone else from wasting their money!   :-[ :-[ :-[

Steven A.

The forest products laboratory at the University of Wisconsin might be able to give you information about the usefulness of the product.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/

PineNut

Has anyone had any experience with CedarTreat?

turningfool

read the cedar oil treatment article and it was very interesting..it soulds a lot like pentacryl.and in the same price range excepting that with pentacryl non oil based finished work well too..i use woodturners finish myself ..a type of padding laquer that goes on quickly and dries rapidly..some folks like "sheen"..i like "shine".

Nudgewood

Hi, I found this thread (and this site) while Googling "CedarCide" a couple of days ago and joined just to add my two cents.

I bought a gal each of CedarTreat and CedarSheild. I cut a lot of one-eighth square by six-inch long pine stakes, half from dry wood and half from fresh cut. I dipped four stakes of each (wet and dry) into each gal for thirty seconds and stuck them halfway into soil in a mudbucket, covered it in plastic and set it in a warm place to grow some fungus.

I also got one gal worth of LifeTime and did the same:
http://www.valhalco.com/index.htm

So (on Dec 19) the bucket was baited and tagged with:

4X dry Cedarshield
4X wet Cedarsheild
4X dry CedarTreat
4X wet CedarTreat
4X dry LifeTime
4X wet LifeTime
4X dry Control
4X wet Control

So far all eight of the Control stakes have sprouted a healthy growth of fungus on the above-ground parts and all the treated ones are still free and clear. It's only been a week so I won't be looking at the underground parts for some time yet, but I reckon the results should be clear in a month or two. So far it looks good.

Thanks PineKnot for starting this thread and FWIW I felt reassured by my conversations with Dave Glassel that this stuff was indeed the real deal and not snakeoil. We'll see!


%<
Sumpin always depends on Sumpin.

Furby

I'm wondering if there would be a problem with this stuff if for some reason it didn't penetrate all the way through the lumber and then created it's water proof barrier and some moisture was sealed inside.
Would the lumber or timber rot from the inside out?

scsmith42

Nudgewood, welcome to the forum and thank's for leaping in with both feet!  I'm looking forward to hearing what your experiences are, as well as what Pinenot came up with.

Regards,

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

seb

Have you any further results it has been many months since your last post??

FC_PineKnot

Hey Guys,

Sorry I've been so long in updating this thread with my results.  I sent an email to Dave Glassel at Cedarcide over a week ago, and I've been waiting on some answers to a few questions before I posted all the results.  Since I still haven't heard from him, I'll try to get all my notes together and post them and some pics this weekend.  Please be patient - I've really been overloaded lately and just can't get everything done!

I will say that I've had mixed feelings about my results so far.  For one thing, it took lots of time and effort to treat the lumber, and then it took WAY MORE of the solution than the charts say it should.  But there are some things I liked.

Maybe I can finish up tomorrow and at least get some of it posted.

Nudgewood and seb - Welcome to the forum!  I'm also anxious to hear how Nudgewood's treatment turns out.

TexasTimbers

Well heck I discover another awesome thread I missed and PineNut teases us and nudgewood is AWOL.  :D
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

FC_PineKnot

Well, here's what I've put together so far:

I needed about 1000 BF of SYP 2x6's for the floor of the gazebo I planned to build for the wife.  I constructed a vat of 2 pieces of sheet metal, finished size about 17 ft. long by 18 in. wide.  I caulked the center joint and ends with silicon.  After several days I filled it with water to check for leaks.  Found none.  Pumped out the water and a few days later placed a couple of test boards in the vat and brushed on some CedarTreat solution.  I planned to partially bury them after curing so I could observe how well the solution protected them over time.  There was a very small amount of the solution that was left in the bottom of the vat when I finished (mostly just a light film on the sheet metal.)  Later, when I had planned to start treating, I noticed that the silicon caulking was beginning to turn loose from the sheet metal!  I guess the oil had seeped under the caulk and caused it to lose it's adhesion to the metal! 

So, I went out and bought some heavy plastic sheeting to cover the inside of the vat.  Placed 2 layers over sides and ends.   

In the picture, you can see an old frame over the vat.  I planned to use it for lifting and lowering 8-10 boards at a time into and out of the vat.  Purchased a cheap chain hoist from Cabela's.  Hung it on the frame to try it out – hung up and quit before I got the first load off the ground!

Desperate to begin, I manually placed the boards in the vat one at a time (2x6x16).
Set them on small dowels to raise them up and to help prevent puncturing plastic.  Managed to get 8 or 9 at a time, but had to be VERY careful because of plastic.  NO WAY to describe how tedious this was, but again I was desperate to get some treated boards to begin construction with!

I let them soak for about an hour, then CAREFULLY raised them up to rest above the vat so the excess solution could drain off.  (Remember, this stuff is EXPENSIVE!!)  After another 30 minutes or so, I stacked and stickered them (under a roof) so they could cure for several days.  I placed some more plastic sheeting under the stack to catch any solution that might drip off as they cured (Remember, EXPENSIVE!)  (Only recovered about a cup, so probably wasn't worth the effort.)  Took me 2 weekends to treat about 77 boards!

During the next week, while these boards were curing, we put up the framing for the floor.  Had planned to use more of these Cedartreated 2x6's for this framing, but after all the time and effort we had already been through, and being behind on our construction schedule, we decided to just buy the green pressure treated stuff and work on the frame while the stuff we had already treated cured.

We started in the center of the floor, cut 4 boards to come together in a point.  We did this for appearance, and so we could use whole boards from center to outside, with no butt joints.  After the first 4 boards, we just filled in by cutting the angles on 2 boards at a time.
There were no problems in either cutting or nailing down the boards.  The sawdust did tend to stick more to the saw blades, and sometimes a drop or 2 of solution would ooze out as we drove in a nail.  But really, no different than cutting or nailing the green stuff.
When the floor was finished, I brushed on an oil based semi-transparent stain with UV protection (the one thing CedarTreat does not claim to protect from!)

Here are my conclusions on MY experience with CedarTreat:
Good Stuff -
1.   The boards had a very pleasing appearance after curing.  The color and grain were much more appealing to me than the green pressure treated woods.
2.   The treatment did SEEM to make the boards stronger and lighter (maybe just my imagination!)
3.   Cost (NOT including any consideration of time involved!) was just slightly cheaper than buying the green stuff.
4.   Remains to be seen how well the stuff will hold up in the weather.

BAD Stuff –
1.   HUGE amount of time and manual labor involved in the process.  Prepare the vat, load in the boards, pump in the solution, brush on solution to tops of boards when they floated, drain the boards, pump out the solution when finished.
2.   Boards absorbed about 3X as much solution as stated by CedarCide.  It took almost 30 gallons to treat roughly 1000 BF.  CedarCide charts state it should have taken around 8 gallons.  This is a huge difference, and really ruins the chance of a cost savings for me.
3.   Now, after several weeks of exposure to the sun's heat, the pitch in the boards has begun to leach out.  I was worried about this before I began, and now this is probably the worst part.  The appeal of the finish is greatly lessened by the white, sticky residue on a large part of the boards now.
4.   The boards have not shrunk at all, as far as I can tell.  BUT, I think they may swell some when they get wet!  Really haven't made any precise measurements, just my observations.



I wrote to Mr. Glassel a couple of weeks ago to ask about these problems, especially why it took so much more solution than it should have(according to their charts.)  I still haven't gotten a reply.  He has been so quick to respond to my questions previously, that I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I'll resend my email this week.

I'm not ready to say all this effort and expense were wasted.  But I'm sure I won't be doing this on any kind of larger scale until my questions have been answered and a better, cheaper way of application has been developed.

I still have a few gallons of CedarTreat left, and I'll try a few more experiments with it later, probably on hardwood and not SYP!

I'm sure I left out lots of details, so feel free to ask and I'll try to fill in the blanks.  I'm anxious to hear if Nudgewood's results are any different than mine.  I sure hope so!

Here's some pics.  Check out the CedarCide album in my gallery for more:

Vat Construction




Finished Floor




Boards in Vat


Just been stacked and stickered after treating


Leaching pitch




Cut end of a board after several weeks under wet leaves.  Lots of mildew.




TexasTimbers

Does the Cedarcide claim to protect against mildew on the surface?

This is a great write-up FC. Thanks for taking the time to share it. Sory it did not turn out as you had hoped.  :(
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

boardwalker

PineKnot

Where did you get your solvent and how much did it cost per gal. I talked to Dave and he told me that the premixed stuff was very close in price to buying the solvent and consentrate and mixing it yourself.  What I found for a price on solvent was $5.05 per gal./ $278 for 55 gal. + 6 gal. consentrate at $480 = $758. That is a far cry from what he charges for 55 gal.  of premix. Not to make him sound bad because I liked the way he handeled himself and answered my questions, but if I decide that I like this stuff I think I will buy the consentrate. I have a 5 gal bucket of CedarTreat coming for a trailer deck that I cut for a friend and 5 gal of Turners choice coming to test on some turning blanks. Dave seams to be a really nice guy.
Lucas 8", Laguna CL1200 copy lathe

FC_PineKnot

Kevjay - on the website it specifically states it prevents "surface mold".  Would mildew be the same thing?

boardwalker - I think I pestered Dave so much with calls and emails that he finally sold me a drum of the premixed CedarTreat for about the same price as I could mix my own (Because he DOES seem like such a nice guy, I won't tell you the EXACT price he gave me  ;D ;D ;D)  I did find a company with an office in New Orleans that would deliver the solvent to me.  I'd have to find the notes and prices I made if you need that info.  Just let me know if you do.

Notice that there are 3 different solutions offered on the Website.  Dave suggested that the CedarTreat was best for what I needed.  He also said this was the only one with the "nanotechnology" that enabled the solution to displace ALL the water in a board.  He said it would be almost like the beginning stages of petrification.

On the website, CedarTreat is mentioned as a "color treatment" but Dave told me they were still having problems with the dye/color, I think because it was hard to keep it from leaching out of the board as it cured.  He offered me some dye to mix with the solution so I could see how it penetrated the wood, but said it was messy, so I decided not to try it.  Anyway, the solution I purchased had no coloration added to it.

I can only say good things about Dave's patience and helpfulness in answering all my questions and concerns.  I'm sure he had more important customers than me, but I never felt that way when talking to him.  Still, I'm not sure I got what I expected from the product itself.  Maybe my expectations weren't realistic?

Oh well, it's still a work in progress!

beenthere

FC
Yes, I think you can assume mildew and surface mold are essentially the same thing.

The photo you showed "just stacked and stickered", shows blue stain which is not surface mold/mildew such as shown in your pic of the cut-off that laid under the leaves.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

boardwalker

PineKnot

The one question that I forgot to ask Dave was if the premix was the full strenght mix or if it was mixed at one of the lower ratios.

Craig
Lucas 8", Laguna CL1200 copy lathe

Nudgewood

Kevjay wrote:
"and nudgewood is AWOL."

So you think I'm awol hey? Is that "A Welly Odd Looser", or "Another Wuz Out Logging", or maybe "A Wanabe Outa Luck"? Hehe... I'll have to ask the Missus what other ones she can come up with. Or maybe not; my ego might not hold up!

I actually just returned from WVA last night (would still have been there if the weather was better) where we only have a cabin and so no internet. Anywho, here's what's going on in my bucket so far:

My little experiment is a bit different to that of Fc_PineKnot's in that I am primarily interested in whether or not this stuff is capable of protecting wood underground. I have a lot of pine (in VA) that I'm busy harvesting before it all dies and thin stuff and tops are just going to waste as selling it for pulp isn't worth my time. The idea is to treat that wood to market as grape trellises, fencing posts or poles for pole construction. Hence my preoccupation with what will happen underground. I also don't want to wait three to five years to see results so I have very thin stakes in a closed container sitting above my hot-water geyser, like an incubator.
So far, about half the sample stakes have some mould discoloration, which is discouraging, BUT, what's encouraging is that the untreated Control stakes have much more mold than the others (except for one of the CedarTreat stakes) and it's a different type of mould than that on the treated ones (treated stakes showing mould have gray blotches and a seperate, fuzzy, white growth, the control stakes have (much heavier) blueish-gray blotches and streaks that have turned a rusty yellow along the edges of the infection plus, where they enter the soil there's a wet, black area much like you see in rotting wood and on the underside of leaf litter, like compost.)

One problem I thought of is that it's getting no sunlight, so maybe I'll put a bulb in there sometime, or start another bucket going in the spring.

So... that's my spiel. Now you can "Attack WithOut Laughing".

%<
Sumpin always depends on Sumpin.

beenthere

Nudgewood
That is a pretty good controlled test. Similar to the USFS stake tests and soil block tests that are used to evalutate treatments.
I hope you have weights of each stake, as weight loss is a real good indicator of decay. Strength tests are another, along with the visuals that you are doing.
Good to hear you are back.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

TexasTimbers

Typically we don't attack each other here Nudgewood.
I have a twisted sense of humor that can rub folks the wrong way sometimes; a knack for being misinterpreted you might say.
I was making an observation that I had just discovered a great thread that seemed like it might go dormant.

Of course I should know by now good threads never die, they just sometimes take a little rest.
Thanks for sharing your test.

I Always Was Overtly Looney
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Nate Surveyor

I'm intensely intrested in the outcome of your tests.

I have kids, and need to build a deck, that is NON TOXIC to children.

Nate
I know less than I used to.

beenthere

Nate
I think ya got the wrong impression of what is toxic about treated deck wood.  I don't mean to say ya can't just believe what ya want, but the treatments are chemically bound up in the wood, and I don't think anyone could eat enough deck planking in a lifetime to notice any effects (but that's just from what I know and think).
It's the names of chemicals that provide the fear and the hype about being toxic. Not the practical side and the numerous tests that indicate no problem, but the media fear that wants to be extended to control our lives (and it works well for them, as the treating companies just opt to not fight it. So they turn to less effective treatments that have more friendly names of chemicals other than arsenic).
Think what ya want der.  :)

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Nate Surveyor

Thanks Mr. Been There.

You are probably right.

OK, so it comes down to cost.

Is this stuff cost effective?

Well, from what I read above, maybe not.

I'd sure like to build a house complete. The only things bought being the plumbing, wiring, and a few light fixtures.

Mill and treat the deck, and the shingles too.

O well, just a fantasy.

Nate
I know less than I used to.

FC_PineKnot

Hey Nudgewood and Boardwalker - how about an update on your Cedartreat usage?

Still no significant changes on my flooring so far - maybe a little shrinkage, but not very much.  It's been about 4 months now and it seems to be holding up well.  No splits, warping or cupping.  But that hot Mississippi summer sun hasn't gotten here yet!

Nudgewood

I recently moved my bucket-o-slime out into the sun. All the stakes are still firm although showing signs of mould. In fact the mould is eating away the masking tape tags so I've had to color code them with paint. As I'm really only interested in how well they hold up below ground it'll be a while still before I have quantifyable results; even if all the untreated stakes rot off I will still need to continue with the treated ones to see how much longer they last. Don't fret, you'll hear from me whenever there's something to report.

I have also put some old 1 X 3/4 pine stickers, treated and untreated, in the ground as tomato stakes about a week ago.

%<
Sumpin always depends on Sumpin.

Radar67

"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

twobears


i thought i,de bring this to the top.

delbert

sgtmaconga

Measure twice cut once

SwampDonkey

Been over two years since the last bump. I think more than this thread has gone dormant, maybe some of the contributors as well. Any signs of life out there? ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Robcarl

Judging by the petering out of discussion and the disappearance of FC_Top Knot, this may be an exercise in futility BUT...

I'd love to know what happened to that deck in the past couple years.  I've been searching for any kind of real life experience with CedarShield.  I've used it several times this year but I end up coating it so it's hard to tell whether the hype has some basis or is just hot air.  My immediate use is for dimensional stability on an exterior application so the coatings will be less likely to crack and delaminate.  So far so good...but let's get thru a NJ winter with our frequent freeze/thaw cycles.  Anybody else with any experience?  I'm trying to decide whether this is worth continuing.

But, beyond my immediate need, I'd also like to know how it fares against critters and moisture in general.

Robcarl

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