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it happened to ME!?

Started by moosehunter, June 14, 2006, 07:49:49 AM

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moosehunter

 I have read about others troubles with loggers for some time here and hoped I would never see it myself.
The neighbors are having logging done and they cut a large Hard Maple that was clearly on the property line.
I talked with the logger on the phone last night, he says he will have the forester go look at it and re-imburse me if it was indeed on the line. I will give him the benifit of a few days to get back to me.
The thing that really bugs me is that it was so obvious. The line is marked in that area every 10 feet with bright red paint. The tree is 30" at the stump, all the rest of the trees they are cutting are 12-15" at best becouse they just logged it three years ago. I think the thing that POs me the most is that I wouldn't dream of cutting a tree within 10 feet of the line without talking to my neighbor first!
I was really mad when I found it, so I waited about 2 hours before I called the logger.
I'll keep you posted on how it turns out.
Mike
"And the days that I keep my gratitude
Higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days".    Ray Wylie Hubbard

Raphael

Good you caught it early on.  Getting any kind of satisfaction after the log (and logger) has gone can be a problem with a small incursion like this.

We had a situation here where a weekender discovered his neighbor had logged the back 30+ acres of his land.
Over the course of ~3yrs they had removed everything of value over ~16" (at the stump).  The court fixed his loss at $175,000 but the actual figure was probably a lot higher.

Sad thing was the neighbor was a 'professional logger'.
He didn't have a real good reputation to begin with, now he's got an orange jumper with a number on it.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Alta

U had this problem with loggers on  my own property. it was a TSI operatiion and I was keeping all the biggest/healthiest trees and basically thinning merchantable stuff that was too close to achieve the spacing I wanted. thats howw i looked at it anyway. the loggers looked at it as "pulling weeds". I was constantly hasselled by these guys to let them cut trees not marked and they took half a dozen when i wasnt aroudd to watch them. the logging contractor understood and agreed to my plan and marking, but his feller was jut another greedy logger with absolutely zero concern for what was left beehind. They also tried to ignore their contractual obligation to deal with the slash. It was a pian watch dogging these guys and i threw them off the property at one point.  Anyway the point is that when guys get paid by the board foot,  they often only care about is getting logs on the trucks and they will drop what ever they can get away with. I work 24 hour shifts so I finally had to shut em down when I wasnt there.

Raphael

Boy are you tolerant.  We'd have tossed them off the property without their logs on the second 'misscut' tree.
  My grandfather would have done worse, any equipment they couldn't remove that day he would have seized pending the outcome of the breach of contract suit he was bringing against them.  He'd back it up flawlessly as well, he had the patience (and moral authority) deal with lawyers, judges and the police.  Of course anyone he hired would know this in advance because he'd make DanG sure they did.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Phorester


MOOSEHUNTER, in Virginia the customary penalty, backed up by law, is triple the value of a tree that is cut accidently or stolen in a logging operation.   If you don't know your State laws already on this, check them out before the value of this tree is determined.

Corley5

If the tree is on the line who does it belong to?  Do the land owners share in it equally?  When building line fences trees are cut to make way for the fence.  It's customary around here for the person doing the cutting and fence building to get the tree.  Of course fence building and timber sales are a bit different but just the same I've made sure there aren't any trees left on my property lines just treated posts and no I didn't share the trees with the neighbor.  Any timber trespass on to my land will be blatant.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Ron Wenrich

I have always stayed away from line trees.  The biggest reason is metal.  Somebody probably put up a fence at one time or at least pounded 8 penny nails in to hold up a sign of some sorts.  Also you have the problem of ownership. 

Customary in our parts that its split, since the tree is on both properties.  More and more line trees are coming into the mills.  Probably due to those are the only nice trees left on stands that have been cut way too hard over the years. 

Fence rows are not necessarily a good indication of where the line is at.  In some areas it was customary to put the fence a few feet inside the line, in others it is not.  When I put fence in, I stayed a couple feet inside the line.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

RSteiner

My folks had a similar think happen a few years back.  They knew a logging operation was going on being done by a logging outfit that was less than sterling.  When we checked the property line after they finished working in that area we discovered that they went way over the clearly marked line by almost 100 feet to get some very nice red oak.

When the land owner, who lived in another state, was confronted he said he would talk to the logger.  The logger in the mean time finished the job and left the state.  My folks didn't want to spend the time or money to press the issue any further.

Most loggers are respectful of property boundries and it only takes one now and then to make the rest look bad.  I know when the land around my property was logged I checked on the crew every day, they were very respectful of property boundries.

The fine for going over the line is several times the stumpage value which can add up fast. 

Randy
Randy

MotorSeven

The guy i bought my place from owned a logging business or was partners with one. The guy had all the hardwoods taken with no regard to the re-growth. I have noticed that ANY tree that was near a property line was cut...even the ones with the fence running thru it! He also took trees off of a 3-4 acre section that belonged to the guy behind me. When i bought the land i was told that this 3-4 acres was part of my tract. While marking the boundry lines the neighbor came over and told me that he had discovered the logging "error" after it was too late and talked with the owner. I had a survey done to confirm what the neighbor said. He was never compensated, nor did he follow up because he said, "there is nothing that can be done to return the trees".
Some loggers can really hurt the image of the industry in the eyes of alot of people. I know that if i ever have a tract that needs logging i will be very carefull picking the logger. It sure has to make a legit loggers job alot harder.
RD
WoodMizer LT15 27' bed

Ron Wenrich

Everyone talks about being very careful when chosing a logger.  But, even those who should know get burned.

My niece's husband has a BS in forestry, and has worked as a procurement forester.  He knows the ins and outs of the business.  His dad also has a BS in forestry, and graduated with me.  He doesn't work in the business.

They marked their ltimber and sold it to a local mill that they both knew.  One of the specifications was that the marked hemlock had to be cut.  Contracts, the whole nine yards. 

Loggers went in and didn't cut the hemlock.  They were told they would be coming back for it.  I know they really bugged the guys, and I'm not sure if it was ever cut. 

Some loggers have made it difficult for the honest ones. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

mur

Around my area, triple stumpage plus all costs would be normal.  It's log theft - plain and simple.
Don't dream it, be it.

maple flats

Log theft is certainly is! When a logging company started cutting adjacent to my line a couple of years ago I immediately put up signs on the line to clearly define my line (was based on a survey from when I previously had logger problems. I then made certain to check the line every time the loggers were cutting near the line and did it making sure the loggers saw me checking each time. This worked and they never even crowded the line. I am not sure they would have without but I did see that they were cutting every marketable tree with no concern for the future and suspected they would cut mine if I wasn't checking daily just based on the rape the woods cutting method they used. The survey I had from another problem was when I marked some trees to cut for my logger and the previous owner of the same adjacent property came on my land and put up posted signs on my side of the line by over 100'. I had the logger not cut those trees in question and after a survey they were shown to be mine and they were cut about 15 years after the first incident when the next logging was being done. I now do my own and do much more selective cutting and much of the cutting is just improvement cutting. In my area if the boundry is agreed upon then the custom is to harvest every other harvestable tree, once the rotation pattern is started from any corner the pattern never changes to reap the better logs.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

hondo

Because that tree was on the line does not mean that it was your tree. Boundary lines are shared with both landowners. I've been harvesting wood in NH abd VT for over 20 years, most of the time working for licensed foresters, and we do occasionally cut boundary trees. I was just looking through the NH timber harvesting laws and couldn't find anything about cutting line trees. We always figured that every other tree was yours, I guess they figured that big maple wasn't yours. Would it have made a difference to you if they had cut a smaller tree? Did the other landowner want that tree cut, or was ther a forester involved? 
hondo

SwampDonkey

Here, logging any marked line tree is removing line evidence, which is illegal. You can probably read every state or provincial forestry book and never see reference to line trees. It's more likely to be written up in the Land Surveys legislation or publications of your state or province. Assuming every other line tree is yours to take is usually a misconception or heresay and isn't likely to be seen on the pages of any law book.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

moosehunter

The logger is supposed to be at my house tonight to straighten it out.

I would agree with the every other line tree agreement............. IFit was agreed apon before hand by both landowners. This tree was obviously cut becouse no one was around to say don't cut it. They made no attempt at cutting every other tree, just this one becouse it was so tempting.
"And the days that I keep my gratitude
Higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days".    Ray Wylie Hubbard

slowzuki

Swampy, you know what RA Pheeney's does around here to circumvent the evidence rule?  The harvester cuts just above the blazing mark on the line tree and takes it.  :D

Quote from: SwampDonkey on June 18, 2006, 07:58:56 AM
Here, logging any marked line tree is removing line evidence, which is illegal. You can probably read every state or provincial forestry book and never see reference to line trees. It's more likely to be written up in the Land Surveys legislation or publications of your state or province. Assuming every other line tree is yours to take is usually a misconception or heresay and isn't likely to be seen on the pages of any law book.

SwampDonkey

I've seen that alot, but usually on old fence line.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

bitternut

Moosehunter since you are located in New York State line trees are co-owned. You can not cut one unless both landowners agree to cut it. We also have a new tough timber theft law in effect in New York.

Redonthehead

Grandpa always said "good fences make good neighbors" , and perhaps good loggers too?

junkyard

Back in the early 60'sI bought an old farm that hadn't been farmed for years. There were a lot of the old zig zag fences left on the farm. In the root of the v 's were nice pines 16 to 20 inches he cut every one on his side of the fence then took up the rails. After he built the new fenceall of the trees that were on my side was then on his side so he cut them to. At the time I was working construction and never saw the second cut till way to late. One of the other neighbors said that the rail fence was mine and he shouldn't have taken it down.
A few years later I bought on the other side of neighbor number one. I checked with the owner and all of the rail fence was mine. First thing I did was take the rails and string onewire along his pasture. At that time the law in N.Y. hads changed if you don't have cattle you dont have to build fence. He had to build new fence for a third of a mile thuogh some of the roughest land on his farm. The only way to get a tractor to that fence is across my land and the road has had a locked gate since I bought it. Watching him carry a]that fence in across the creek and ledges was worth more than the White Pine that he got from me.
                 Junkyard
If it's free, It's for me. If for pay, leave it lay.

bitternut

Good for you junkyard, guess there is some justice in this world. Maybe moosehunter will be as lucky with his greedy logger.

moosehunter

Update;

Yesterday my wife and I went to try to "clerify" the property line in question. All of the maps show (tax and survey) a straight line. The trees are marked on a curved line. I am begining to believe this may be the forester's fault as much as anyone else's ( including mine ) for not seeing that the line was not marked properly.
Now that we have a better idea of the true line the  logger may have cut three other trees on the line and the original tree I was complaining about is completely on my property.

Anyhow,......... I don't think anymore that this was a case of the logger being greedy, just the forester ( or who ever marked the trees) not being carefull.

mh
"And the days that I keep my gratitude
Higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days".    Ray Wylie Hubbard

Phorester


RON:
"They marked their ltimber and sold it to a local mill that they both knew.  One of the specifications was that the marked hemlock had to be cut.  Contracts, the whole nine yards. 

Loggers went in and didn't cut the hemlock.  They were told they would be coming back for it.  I know they really bugged the guys, and I'm not sure if it was ever cut."


I recommend that landowners who are selling both high value and low value trees together (here it's usually small, low value pulpwood trees along with high value sawtimber trees), put in the contract that the low value trees have to be cut first before the high value ones can be cut. 

Burns my butt when a forester has thoughfully marked a sale based on good forestry principles and the logger leaves the low value trees behind.  Totally negates the purpose of having the sale in the first place.

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