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Author Topic: black walnut logs  (Read 13757 times)

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Offline ARKANSAWYER

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2006, 04:20:03 pm »
  I love these stories.   Run into this quite a bit.   Most of the time I buy walnut for $0.50 to $0.80 a bdft which is the going rate in the Ozarks.   Then you get these yard trees worth thousands.
  I started giving them a bid and on the back of a business card I write the bid and the date.   Then I tell them the bid is good for 30 days and after that the price drops 10% a week after that.   I make a note in the book in the truck and call them back in 30 days to see how the sale went.  ;D   I may be a crook but I am upfront and honest about it.   :o   About a third of them I get a return call in two weeks and buy the logs.
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Online thecfarm

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2006, 05:08:08 pm »
Seems like in my area red oak is the million dollar baby here.Was a guy at work that asked me about his oak on a stone wall with fields on each side of the wall.He was about to buy the field next door to him.Nice and limbing,should be worth alot he thought.  :-\ I never saw them,but asked him how high the first limb was.It wasn't good,8 feet or so.He didn't know if the trees were used for fence post or not.And you know how the rest went.I suggested firewood or pallet logs,from what he told me,but I told him to have someone look at them for better advise.Some people are not happy with the truth until they hear it from 4-5 people.Alot of advise comes from people that is not even in the wood industry.
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Offline Frickman

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2006, 07:38:09 pm »
Quote
Alot of advice comes from people that is not even in the wood industry.

How true.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

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Pretend farmer when I have the time

Offline Sawyerfortyish

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2006, 08:09:56 pm »
I think that brought about the saying (put your money where your month is)

Offline rebocardo

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2006, 09:23:20 pm »
treecyclers,

imo, You gave them too much information. I would not give customers my cost on anything. It just creates more problems then it solves. I learned that from selling cars.


Offline urbanlumberinc

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2006, 11:31:05 pm »
Rebo makes a good point.  Customers are on a need to know basis as far as I'm concerned.  Besides, If I were forced to add up my overhead I'd probably kick myself for getting into this racket instead of something safe and profitable like a worm farm or something.

The one thing all of these stories share in common is a misinformed/uneducated seller of the logs and an informed buyer.  Whenever somone quotes me the going rate for cut, dried, graded lumber, I kindly remind them that that lumber has likely made trips through a hundred thousand bucks worth of machinery, and been trucked cross country before it reached their local Rockler.  I see the same thing all the time these days in different venues; people these days think food comes from grocery stores, not farms, and lumber comes from home depot, not a sawmill.

Offline getoverit

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2006, 10:46:48 pm »
One would think that with the high cost of housing these days that dimensional lumber was bringing a premium, but it is far from that. I found out really fast that sawing pine lumber brings no real profit. There is no way I can make money sawing pine and compete with the box stores selling kiln dried and planed lumber for $.54/bdft.... it just cant be done.

The only exception to this is that you are able to sell to a niche market and sell lumber in sizes that are not readily available in the stores.

As for me an my mill, I wont even try to compete with the box stores on pine.

My dad cut down a rather small black walnut tree several years ago, and didnt do anything with the short 4' sections of logs except stack them under the shelter of the barn on the ground. Termites have eaten all of the sap wood, but the heart is still in tact on these logs... he still thinks they are worth thousands...I cut one of them up just to see what it looked like and ended up giving one of my friends a blank large enough to make a rifle stock. I wont even try to sell the remaining pieces.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

Offline tlooney

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2006, 11:09:35 pm »
Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread, I think I will give that gentleman about a month then swing by his place and see if he found his buyer yet for that gold mine he has. ;D

Who knows I might make him an offer he can't refuse. :D
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Offline solodan

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2006, 11:26:49 pm »

By my rough estimates, those three logs would average 150 bd ft each. If you paid $3000 per log, that would be $20 per bd ft or about 10 times the maximum value. Since your log costs should not be more than one third to one fourth the selling price, you would have to be selling that lumber for $60 to $80 per bd ft.      Good luck!!

 :o

I agree , your log costs should never be more than 1/3  the sellling price, but I think 1/4 is more realistic. I prefer free logs ;D

One thing I do need to metion though is,  you are from Oregon, What kind of walnut is it? What is refered to as black walnut on the west coast is quite often claro walnut, and yes it can bring in $100bf. Now I'm not saying you should offer him what he wanted,  but  if it is a highly fiqured  claro then maybe you should go into a partnership with this guy. You have a sawmill, he has some potentially real nice logs ???

Offline redpowerd

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2006, 12:00:12 am »
good stuff, still wouldnt mind hearing the history of walnut, i did post a querey back there.

folks round here like it for their guns, and my buddy down the path wont beleive me that its toxicity is
 harmfull to his very close by garden.
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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2006, 05:52:39 am »
I have seen in a couple of posts that some have tried to equate log value to a certain portion of lumber price.  You may be able to get away with that if you don't need many logs.  But, the bigger boys don't play it that way.

Log value =  lumber value - mfg costs - profit

That's why its important to know your numbers.  Lumber value means everything in the log, not just the best or just the worst. 

I have seen cherry stumpage bring more than what the lumber is worth.  Every log that rolled into a sawmill was done so at a loss.  Why?  Because someone knew his log values and his markets.

In our case, veneer sales usually pays for the stumpage and the logging.  But, the margin between stumpage value and lumber value is usually only a few hundred $/Mbf.

The reason you can't beat those box stores on pine is because their operating costs are so much less than yours.  They also have better recovery rates and they really sort the daylights out of the lumber.  Grading is everything.
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Offline Sawyerfortyish

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2006, 06:15:39 am »


In our case, veneer sales usually pays for the stumpage and the logging.  But, the margin between stumpage value and lumber value is usually only a few hundred $/Mbf.

I'll agree with you Ron thats how we figure our logging jobs.

Offline Gary_C

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2006, 09:45:52 am »
I have seen cherry stumpage bring more than what the lumber is worth. Every log that rolled into a sawmill was done so at a loss. Why? Because someone knew his log values and his markets.

I don't understand that statement.  Did you mean that someone did NOT know his log values and his markets?

From my experience using raw material costs as a percentage of sales is a common practice. In fact one company I worked for had an rough target of "manufacturing a product for a dime and selling it for a dollar." I realize that is not going to work in the lumber commodity markets. If you compared your log costs to your total sales, would it fall outside that 25 to 33 percent range?
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Offline twoodward15

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2006, 11:14:38 am »
Gary, I think he meant that the veneer logs from the lot paid for the cost of ALL of the lumber and logging operation and then some.  Any logs left over were the profit margin on the job if there was any.  Knowing that the cherry wasn't going to make them any money now, but not wanting to waste logs they sawed them up.  I'm guessing.
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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2006, 04:57:30 pm »
There was a bid sale a few years back that brought $3.25/bf stumpage.  I happened to buy logs off of this particular logging contractor when I worked at a mill in his area.  He knows his markets.  At that time, upper grade cherry lumber was about $2.50/bf, maybe a little higher.  But, every log that was sold to a sawmill was sold at a loss.  His veneer values were probably in the $4-8/bf range.  The veneer had to make up for the cost of logging, shipping and the loss on the sawlogs.

As for percentage, in my area, if you are buying for 25-33% of the final sale price, you won't be buying much timber.  You might get away with that in pine, maybe even less.  I think a good rule-of-thumb is that good logs are worth 1 Common lumber prices, mid grade logs about 2 Common, and below would be pallet prices.  Although I have seen the prime logs go for close to FAS prices. 

But, your area may be very different.  Your timber quality might be not as good, your timber size might be small (which raises logging costs), and trucking distances might be more.  There are factors to consider. 

Manufacturing for a dime and selling for a dollar is OK, but you also have to consider the cost of the raw materials into the equation.  And, in most cases, you aren't selling for a dollar straight thru.  I always found it kind of amusing that when you ask someone what lumber prices were like, they would always either quote their highest or lowest value.  Optimist vs pessimist.   :D
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Offline Buzz-sawyer

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2006, 11:20:42 pm »
It kinda reminds me of when I used to make money trapping.
The mink and high dollar fox would pay your expenses easily....but the lowly possum, and coon paid the bills :)
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Offline GHRoberts

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2006, 07:01:48 pm »
I am sure that most wanut is sold for the prices given, but most walnut is sold to large firms where one piece of hardwood is the same as another.

I perfer cherry over walnut but ...

I only buy logs - flitch sawn, 8/4, dried and 200bdft min from each log.

While most mills sell 8/4 lumber for under $3/bdft, I pay about $11. And I am willing to pay more.

While most of you seem to know the commercial market, it helps to know the speciallty markets also.

(I have driven 3000 miles round trip to pay $25/bdft for 100bdft of walnut.)


Offline rebocardo

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2006, 07:00:42 pm »
Saw an ad in my local AG newspaper, lady said for the black walnut, four feet off the ground where it splits into a Y, each part of the Y is "5 1/2" wide. Then "taking offers". I hope it is feet and not inches, because maybe I will take some offers on my " 12" " firewood  I have drying :D

Offline solodan

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2006, 02:09:57 pm »
I still think that what tlooney is talking about is claro walnut, since he is in Oregon, not the black walnut that our east coast members are so familiar with.  :)

Offline Redonthehead

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Re: black walnut logs
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2006, 10:32:33 pm »
tlooney: 

I think you should have looked him in the eye and said " you misunderstood, if you pay ME $150 I'll haul the logs out of your yard for you"