iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Reasons not to get a sawmill.

Started by KGNC, May 25, 2006, 10:39:43 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

KGNC

I have been hanging around here a while and would love to have a mill for all the usual reasons.
I come from a long line of sawmillers and really enjoy working with the wood but it has been difficult to justify buying a mill.
In the mean time I needed some timbers for a picnic shelter I have started. I called a local saw mill guy on a Friday He said he thought he had most of what I needed, and the following Wednesday I picked up about 1100 Bd ft of white pine 6x6" and 4x6" for $900.00.  When I got there he had it all bundled and just set it on the trailer with the fork lift. And I think he give me about 10% extra.
As I looked around his lot there was 100's of 1000's of bd ft of all sorts of lumber. And the thing is I know two other mills in the area that could do about the same.
This really drove home the point that I really can't justify a mill right now. If I count my time worth anything there is no way I could compete with these guys even for lumber for my use. Maybe when the kids are grown and the wife wants be out of her hair I could get one for a hobby but not now.
Has anyone else come to this conclusion? Is there something I'm missing?

thurlow

I bought a mill because I needed lumber and I had (almost) unlimited access to trees.  If you're talking either sawing for the public or buying trees/logs and selling the lumber, then I'd suggest surveying your (local) area;  seems you've done that.
Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

beenthere

KGNC
Only thing I see missing is you going over to that mill and offer some tailing help, and get to know this guy a bit better, if possible.
If you are handy, you can pick up a ton of info if he is willing to share. Sounds like a real potential for getting closer to your own mill, and in the meantime satisfying a craving to rub up to the board-making end of the business.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

woodmills1

Geeze    I would have cut the 1100 bd ft for $660 but the delivery would have killed ya. :D :D
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

twoodward15

KGNC, I am going through the same thing.  I really want a mill right now, but I, like you, can't justify it.  If I take even the cheapest mill I've been looking at, costing about 3K and put all of that toward lumber, I'd have enough to last me a real long time.  I only need it for woodworking.  Last time I went to the mill to say Hi to the sawyer he told me to pick through his slab pile.  I ended up with about 75 bdft of cedar.  Then he gave me a piece of ash that was 2 1/4 thick, 12 inches wide and 9 feet long.  I think I walked with a bit over a hundred bdft!  I guess it's payment for selling lumber for him.  It sure made me happy.  He had a stack of ash shorts about 24 inches wide and 5/4 thick by 5 feet long that he told me to take as well, but they were there for a couple years unstickered and they didn't look so good. 
     I still want a mill though and just can't justify it (unless I get a higher paying job)
108 ARW   NKAWTG...N      Jersey Thunder

tomboysawyer

Quote from: KGNC on May 25, 2006, 10:39:43 AM
Has anyone else come to this conclusion? Is there something I'm missing?

My hubby still claims we shoulda gone to the big orange place or our local lumber yard and stick built - only because the construction will be much faster.

I bought a mill because I had to take down trees anyway. Yep. I coulda got someone in to take down those trees and even pay me for it. I coulda bought a lotta 2x6s with the dough, or even gone to one of the many mills and bought stuff to build our three buildings.

But, ya know, I couldn't have 2" thick solid cherry flooring through my whole house. I just couldn't afford it.

I couldn't say, well now instead of a barn and a house I want a barn, a house AND a separate office/studio. We woulda had to borrow money.

I don't know. Its a lot like many things in life - like my motorcycle or other things I do. I mill because I love milling. I love working with the wood. I love seeing it take new shapes. There's more to a balance sheet than dollars. Maybe that's a woman business owner talking. I've owned and sold a few businesses. Money has never been my primary motivator in anything I do.

And when I go to that orange store and the only thing that comes close to cherry flooring is some veneer and sawdust sandwich, I look at that product and think it is wood with no soul. Like me when I'm stressed out, it has been cut so thin there is just nothing left to it but a two dimensional surface.

Yep. You are buying wood with soul. And bless you for supporting your local sawyer. You are still part of the equation here. But I just like putting my soul into the wood too. It is not for everyone.

Norm

Awww come on folks if I justified everything with dollars and cents and ROI I'd still be single. ;D

Just kiddin honey. :-*

thurlow

Hey Norm, the only investment I've ever made that I can truly say "gained/grew/increased" is.................well, she doesn't read these forums, anyway. :D
Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

Ga_Boy

Amen to doing it just because it is fun!!!
10 Acers in the Blue Ridge Mountains

red

KGNC

It is all or nothing

sometimes people just dont get it  and thats ok

but it sure is a tough thing to explain to someone who has doubts

so my advise is to RUN  as fast as you can .....  

RED
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

Tom

Saw-milling, home carpentry and back-yard cabinetry are just a few of the things in this world that someone does for the enjoyment, self-satisfaction, personal gratification as well as the economy.  

When life is over, someone will lay us all out, one like the other.  It won't matter to anyone, but a few who are left, if you bought your house or built it.   It won't matter at all to you.  The things that you built are your legacies.  That's why I ask my customers to please write my name in the top of the barn or house that they build.  It is the only thing that will mean anything to the great scheme a hundred years from now when even my bones may not exist.

When someone cuts down their favorite tree and uses it to make their floor, it may cost them more than buying a floor commercially manufactured. But, the commercial floor won't carry the satisfaction that the handmade floor will carry.  In a hundred years, a relative may stand on it and say, my Great Great Grandfather or, my Great Great Aunt built that floor.  They sawed it with there very hands from a tree that stood "over there", right where we park the levitationmobile now.

Sawing your own wood usually gives you the availability of economical building materials too.  That allows you to have things that you normally may not be able to afford.  Above that, it allows you to harvest the beauty of special woods, something that only a few with deep pockets can afford.  It's not just anyone who can build a cabinet from crotch wood, turn a bowl from burl, pick through thousands of feet of quarter sawn for a special board and cast aside boards that the Royalty would want.  Ask the cabinet maker who is going through the s4s Oak at the box store if he would rather have some 5/4 rough for the same price.

A sawmill is a device that everyone who has one thinks that everyone should have one.  It doesn't have to be a great big commercial mill, or even a high end Hobby Mill (if there is such a thing), a lot of satisfaction can be gotten from a chainsaw set in a jig that allows it cut boards.  

Don't think about the size and speed of your equipment as much as you do about the amount of time you have to contribute.  It's the board you are after.


brdmkr

Well said Tom!

I bought a mill so I could be more connected to the wood I worked with.  I can guarantee it was not for the bottom line.  In the end, though, the bottom line won't look so bad either.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

lmbeachy

Tom: you are not only a sawyer, but a scholar. Very well said.
hotfoot

rbarshaw

I built my own Bandsawmill 8), I guess for the satisfaction of having done it myself :), less than $800 in it and I get great enjoyment every time I pull a board off of it 8) 8), not to mention the health benifit of a manual mill being a good workout :D :D. So I say don't buy one :o :o. Build it yourself. :P
Been doing so much with so little for so long I can now do anything with nothing, except help from y'all!
By the way rbarshaw is short for Robert Barshaw.
My Second Mill Is Shopbuilt 64HP,37" wheels, still a work in progress.

tcsmpsi

A few weeks ago, when I first came to the Foresty Forum and  as I searched through the archives of topics most relating to others who had and were still looking for first/new purchase answers, I came across an entry by a fellow who was a bit less than complimentary to anyone who might entertain the idea of getting a sawmill just to cut up their own trees.

I'm not certain what spawned such reaction, but certainly one does have one's educated theories.

In my personal situation, I purchased land that had been planted in trees, as well as having 'old forest' left around the watersheds about 23 yrs ago initially to have a shooting range, a place to store equipment/materials from the building/remodeling/cabinet business, and just basically somewhere where the human impact was not, and requiring myself to create as little impact as possible (generally speaking, I am much more comfortable with trees than humans).  

Been residing there a few years now,  trees have grown (many to a critical point), I am getting ready to call in all the dogs (start consolidating all my work to a central location) and I will need much more building to house them all.  

I personally can see no other responsible action other than to have a mill, under the circumstances.  However, having been self-employed for about 35 yrs,  I could not possibly rationalize such expenditure for a tool without some 'plan' for it making at least enough to pay for itself in a reasonable time.  

In the building/cabinet business, there were many times where specialty cuts/woods would be quite handy.

There are many people out there (who have some bucks) with the 'need' for unique.  If one really wants to work wood, there is unlimited strategy to apply that toward a mill perspective, whether one wants only to mill, or to incorporate into finished products.   It is certainly far from being only for high production of lumber.

Many years ago, I got the opportunity to do the finish work inside a log house planned by and for a retired executive of St. Regis.

The paneling was 2"- 9" tongue and groove, milled from seven different hardwoods.  The missus was there every morning showing which piece she wanted next.  Sometimes, it would take an hour just to build some sort of contraption to force that bent, crooked piece into the place she wanted it.

The stairs were all premium walnut, with the treads 3" thick and 12" wide.
Cabinets were mostly a mixture of walnut and pecan.    Everything in the house was completely specific as to what type/piece of wood went where.

As I mentioned, there are lots of folks out there looking for something unique.  

\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Ron Wenrich

I have made investments in the past that were good for a pasttime.  Playing music is one of them.  I never made much money, and some say I never made much music.   :D   But, it was fun and I had some really good adventures that I would have missed.  The same can be said for a small sawmill.  Sometimes you can't measure your return in dollars.

I've been working in and around mills for about 35 years.  When it comes time to walk out of the booth for the last time, I have serious doubts I will be investing in a sawmill.  I say that with some reservation.

I will not miss eating sawdust, rolling logs, or the constant noise.  If I need lumber, I know of dozens of mills I can go to, and get the lumber at a decent price.  If I have logs to saw, I know of guys who will come and pick the logs up and take them to their mill.  I have no desire to be their competition and will gladly send people their way.

Now for my reservation.  I would buy a portable mill, along the lines of a swinger or a dimension mill.  Not for making lumber for me, but I've seen times when it was necessary to have logs sawn on the spot.  We've had storms that have moved through where sawing a tree where it lays makes a whole lot more sense.  Also for some very low impact forest management, it would make sense.

The other market I would hit is sawing those logs to big to put into a commercial mill.  They have the room, the manpower, and the equipment to move the logs so they can easily be sawn.  Both of these markets are small and probably suitable for a retired guy.

To go the route of buying a mill and support equipment is just more investment than what I would like. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Kelvin

There are a lot of ways to make and get lumber.  I started with an alaskan mill and made a bunch of jigs and modifications to make it easier.  Milled a lot of lumber for not much invested.  Then i built a homemade bandmill for not much money either, before i bought a brand new LT-40 to go into business.  If you are a furniture maker its nice to get lumber for less, but at some point you don't want to do every job on the block.  You have to decide some starting and finishing point. 

I don't want to invest in being a lumber jack so when people ask if i want to buy their 10 acre woods for $15k, while i could save money by doing so, i can't do everything.  Sometimes i sell green lumber to people who want to dry it themselves.  I hate to loose the revenue of not finishing it up myself, but there is a market for people who want ot save .50 a bd ft and air dry it. 

I have a hard time keeping centered on making boards.  I keep looking into making molding, buying a grapple loader, or making flooring.  Always thinking of expanding, but i believe this is my personal way of trying to be busy enough to avoid other things i need to do.  Our society is geared this way.  Overworkers and overachievers.  We want to show people we grew the tree, cut the tree milled the tree, and finally made the furniture.  People who are really focused can achieve a more relaxed life.  I know an artist who works in wood and has only a few dedicated tools to make his type of curvy sculpture type tables.  I asked him why he doesn't buy this and that to speed up the process or produce more?  He says it works just fine now.  Its worked for 15 years.  Same with a neighbor who makes wooden long bows by splitting wood, and working it down on a shaving horse and finished it up with rasps.  No power tools!  You can always get bigger, faster, more effciant.  You will never be perfectly effciant, and as long as you keep going after that carrot you may miss other things.  I spend so much time trying to figure out how such and such a tool is going to save me so much time.

Oh, well.  Some people just change their own oil in their cars and some people decide that $28 is worth it.  Who is better off?  Who is smarter?  Can't say.
Just some ideas
Kelvin

thecfarm

I bought a mill so I don't have to spend money for someone elses lumber.I do have my own trees to saw up.Maybe someday I will built that working garage and make the sawmill pay for itself.I have only built a 3 sided building for the horses,a greenhouse out of hemlock and a platform for the screen house.But I do enjoy it and that counts for a lot.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

woodbeard

You could look at the situation this way:
Now you don't need to spend the big bucks on a higher production mill, if that is what you were considering.
You could get a smaller, inexpensive one so you have something to mess around with, and when you need lots of lumber for something, it's there at the big mill.
Just a thought. :)

Daren

Firstly if you are looking for someone to talk you out of something so fun, you came to the wrong place  ;). I am guessing if you are needing reasons not to buy one you are doing the pros/cons list and your pro list is longer. I'm sorry I can't give you many reasons NOT to buy a mill, I had my mill purchase justified before I bought it... and the reasons why I love having one just keeps growing. One thing to think about (which I hadn't) is mill support. Sure I went out and bought a cheap manual $4k mill for personal use and a little custom to offset my operating costs and pay for the mill (as a sidenote, it payed for itself in a hurry, before I even got good at it). Then I realized logs are heavy, so I bought a skidsteer. Then people started calling with logs for "free", just come get them and it was a log trailer... You get the drift. This may not apply to you, just things to think about.
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

getoverit

I'm right there with Daren on this one... I got the mill, bought a bigger (used) truck, then got a skidsteer.

I make a living at sawing logs, and I love doing it.  I live on a farm and needed the bigger truck (1 ton) and the skidsteer sue has come in handy for all sorts of things besides the mill also.

I'm still learning the business, but I'm having a blast doing it. I also appreciate the advice I get on this forum on things that help me get this business started.

My advice? ...
Dont buy a mill to compete with other mills... buy a mill to serve a niche market.

I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

RMay

I sawmill ever weekend and one of my favorite things I like about it is going to the bank mondays 8)
RMay in Okolona Arkansas  Sawing since 2001 with a 2012 Wood-Miser LT40HDSD35-RA  with Command Control and Accuset .

KGNC

Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies.

I guess it's all coming down to priorities. I love the idea of maybe building my own mill and sawing boards for myself, family and maybe sell a bit. But I'm sure that I will never regret the time I'm spending with my 2 sons. (I've spent a lot of the spring at little league baseball games). Maybe there is a way to do both but I'm not sure how that would work. And $3-4k in a mutal fund seems like a better bet to pay for college than me buying euipment to saw lumber. So for now I think my projects will have to wait a few years.

Tom, I do know what you mean about leaving a legacy. My Grandfather sawed locust 6x6's for the Blue Ridge Parkway road side signs back in the '30's. He pointed some of these out to me many years ago. There are still a few of them left, it will be a sad day when there all gone.

Tom

If you know where some are, perhaps you can get the DOT to give you one or two.  Some of those guys have a streak of Nostalgia too.  :D

tcsmpsi

KGNC,

Indeed, you will NEVER regret spending all the time you can with your children.  And then some.

The fact is, it has been one of the major considerations in my having been and remaining self-employed.  Most especially when one of those lucrative job opportunities presents itself from time to time.

In the protection, training and related activities of humanity (my first self-employment was protection long ago), I could be in different hot spots in the world writing my own paycheck.  And, it is something I really like.  Too much, sometimes.

It was also a major consideration in my decision to add a mill.  We have two children left at home.  And, with at least one of them, I can see that his involvement in helping work the mill, will make a notable impact in his ongoing training,  will appeal to his eye for beauty and structure, and help feed the inherent human need for physical accomplishment.
Not to mention adding a skill to his personal 'resume'.

Now, the girl...well, she appreciates trees as much as I do.   ;)  So, who knows??

Oh, and my wife, always loves working together, regardless what it is. 

I watched the politics of little league break the heart and pinch the spirit of one of my children.  Once.

\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Thank You Sponsors!