Seed Trees....

[Woodhog]

I am presently working  on a piece of land that is mostly Red Spruce and Fir..

A lot of the Red Spruce have two tops or top damage from previous damage in the winters,  the trees I am refering to are about 60- 80 years old or more.

On the ones that are nice looking trees except for the two or three tops, would these still make nice seed trees.

I would just as soon leave a lot of these trees for seed trees as they sometimes are starting to rot from the Y area down due to the damage many years ago.. it takes a lot of grinding and gas/time which is just wasted if the Butt log is no good...


So I guess the question is:

If a tree starts out its life with good characteristics (genes I guess) are they altered in a negative way due to damage over their lifetime which would negate using them for seed trees...???

Thanks...

[beenthere]

If you lose an arm at an early age, your genes won't be affected.  :D  Doubt if the tree's genes know that the wind took out it's top, but possibly the tree being stressed from the damage might cause it to produce more seeds for its future.
I'd leave them for seed trees if they are not 'in the way' of young stock.

[crtreedude]

If the damage was due to poor genes, it might be something to worry about - in other words, if the tree didn't produce a very strong top for example.

[Ron Wenrich]

There are 2 ways of looking at it.  I don't see any problem from a genetic standpoint, as long other factors are consistent. 

However, using them as seed trees just because they aren't economical to harvest doesn't make much sense.  Who is supposed to harvest them in the future?  Afterall, after they throw their seed, they take up growing space, water and nutrients that are needed for the next stand.  How many trees/acre are you planning to leave?  How many are recommended?

I've seen trees left in the woods that were wildlife trees, seed trees. growing stock, and any other term that someone could think up just so they could justify leaving a tree that should come out.   

[Ianab]

From research into NZ pine, the form of the tree is affected by it's genetics to some extent. The forming of multiple leaders and weak tops can be inherited. Those tree broke off while the ones around them didn't, maybe they are just weaker? Because of the way genetics works you wont get all faulty trees from their seed, but you dont want to increase the amount of problems in the next generation. Maybe instead of 5% defect trees, next crop you might get 10% defect. Eventually, after enough generations, you could breed a variety of the tree that allways lost it's top  :(
You should be getting seed from the BEST trees, thats what you want more of the the next crop to look like 

You dont breed winning racehorses from the ones that go lame all the time, you breed them from the ones that WIN  ;)

Cheers

Ian

[Phorester]

Using the seed tree method of regenerating a forest consists of two phases, both of which must be done; leaving seed trees, then removing them after they have done their job. 

The concept of leaving seed trees is that you choose the best trees to leave.  You then have the best genetics for the new forest.  And by leaving the best trees for seed, there is the financial incentive to come back and remove them when they have reseeded the area.

But we have found that if you have access to good quality seedlings of the species you want to grow,  it is more cost effective to do a regeneration clearcut, then replant a new forest with genetically superior seedlings.  Leaving seed trees does not give you the advantage of any new genetics that may have been developed by a nursery.

If the commercial value of leaving the seed trees is greater than the cost of replanting, your better off financially to clearcut and replant. 

[bitternut]

Phorester I assume you are referring to replanting a pine forest and not a northern hardwood forest. I have seen some clear cuts in hardwoods but don't believe they replanted them. I think they just leave them to reseed naturally to whatever will grow on its own. I have seen them in northern PA on state land.

[crtreedude]

I agree with Phorester.  When you are planting a mono-crop, it is very important to get the best you can. Personal preference, I usually don't want clones. Yes, it gives very good growth, but it increases the risk of one disease (or genetic defect!) wiping out the entire crop. Or, if you are, possible get them from more than one source.

[Pullinchips]

most hardwoods are clearcut and then allowed to naturally regenerate from stump sprouts.  It is very hard and expensive to plant hardwoods, when you already have stumps.  Better yet leave a few mature ones to drop seeds.

-Nate

[Phorester]

Bitternut, the original question was indeed about a conifer forest, not hardwood. Hardwood forests are different. 

Different forest types call for different management practices.  Clearcutting, in the right circumstances - meaning natural regeneration of preferred species already exists-  is a viable regeneration method for eastern hardwood forests.

[SwampDonkey]

If your going to leave any of the red spruce as seed trees, make sure you leave dominants. Also, look at the situation (site-wise). If it's prone to direct winds or the site is wet the seed trees may not fare well. Well drained sheltered areas are best. Also, leaving stressed trees for seed trees may have an impact on seed quality, not so much their genetics. I wouldn't bank on leaving mature fir, it won't stand long if you remove more than 20 -30 % of the volume. Also, it's alot more abundant in the forest than red spruce and very shade tolerant. You can cut two crops of fir to one crop of red spruce logs. Red spruce is also very shade tolerant and responds better to long suppression periods than fir. ;)