Another anti-logging lunatic?

[Pete J]

Stuff like this bothers me. Should this be left unchallenged? I don't want to get sucked into dealing with an over-the-top eco-zealot.

Link to Anti-Logging rant on a Mountain Biker Forum

[etat]

I went and read it and personally, I wouldn't give em the time of day.  Obviously he's a nut and  would just use ANY comments to further his cause. 

[sawguy21]

This is a tough call. Do we just ignore him and allow him to gather support by our silence? Or do we try to cut him off at the pass with a reasoned, well informed response which will just give him the attention he obviously craves.

[Daren]

You can ride a bike anywhere, but you can only log where the trees are. Don't get me wrong, I  love undisturbed nature... bikers disturb me when I am looking for trees to cut. I hope this guy isn't passing out fliers too, it took timber products to get his eco-message out. Everyone has a right to thier opinion, and is free to try to push it on anyone who will listen. It just fell on deaf ears here.

[Jeff]

Enviros are enviros. You'll be wasting your breath. Tom and I and Don Staples and a few others have tried carefully worded accurate sensible replies to such garbage in the past in other forums and what you get is more garbage. Once you have answered every idiotic thought they possess they will get personal and turn on you. Dont waste your time and energy on it. By answering all you do is call more cloned wackos off the bench. Let him answer himself.

[caryr]

I'm not so sure about that Jeff. It depends on the characteristics of the other group members. If they are all of one mindset you are correct "No amount of factual information will help". On the other hand if there are enough people who can think for themselves you can have some success. This guy doesn't look too bad compared to some I have spared with. My guess is he has his heart in the right place, he just doesn't have all the facts he needs to understand the real situation. Even if he is part of the don't bother me with the facts crowd a well written reply should benefit other members.

If I was replying to this I would make sure to get all the facts straight and then would write something that was mostly educational and had minimal bias to refute the points. If anyone would like some suggestions or needs a proof reader I will gladly help, but I'm not going to take the time to learn enough about Eastern forests to actually write a reply.

Cary

[thecfarm]

I usally don't get into this much,I just want to thump people who don't WANT to understand things like this,and what will that solve?Someone did apply after all of the above had read it, check it out.He did pretty good.Go back and read it.

[Cedarman]

Very seldom is anyones mind changed by argument, no matter how factual and true the argument may be.  People change their views in a slow process over a period of time.   But, by putting rebuttals out in a calm, factual manner you begin this process.  By constantly presenting the facts from our viewpoint, we can slowly change the mindset of the nation.  Look at what the nature conservancy does.  They have slowly but surely won over environmentalists, conservationists , preservationists, farmers, ranchers.  I have cut a lot of trees on nature conservancy property.  So keep educating.

There must be a response.

[RSteiner]

The unforunate thing here is there have been many logging operations where the forest has been left looking like a war zone.  I live only an hour north of that area and have seen my share of hit-and-run logging operations.  I also have seen as many very well done cuts. 

Just by looking at the marked trees you can not tell what the finished product is going to look like.  At least some one has taken the time to mark out skid roads.  With some of the felling machines around today tree removal can be very clean almost surgical.

If the red pine are infected with a fungus how long will it be before the trees start dying off, and what will that look like.  What many don't understand is that when you open up the forest canopy the increased sunlight causes the remaining trees to grow faster. 

There are organizations around here that can educate these people who don't understand how a forest works, however some people will not listen as I am afraid would be true of this mountian biker. 

Is it worth saying somethhing?  Without saying anything the battle will be won by these people.  One other way to fight this is for the logging industry to make sure it's own people do the best job using the best practices.

Randy

[crtreedude]

Unfortunate when someone just knee-jerk reacts to a harvesting of lumber. Of course, this is so much easier than studying the facts and determining the correct situation.

My worst experience to date in reforesting has been with a couple who did feel we were "pure" enough. They caused us problems with the locals as well (for a short time). They were in the category of considering Costa Ricans as poor, unenlightened savages - or pretty close to it.

Purist irritate me - normally because things generally aren't that simple. Is it right to always clear cut? No. Is it right to NEVER clear cut? No.  Often you have to remove all the trees to restart something better, especially if you have disease problems.

But, it is so easy to see black and white - but color is much more interesting.

[sawguy21]

thecfarm, you are correct. Someone on his forum did respond refuting his argument. However that alone very likely did not change his myopic view. He and others of his ilk only see the aesthetics of a forested trail. They are unaware of the larger picture of a well managed forest. Look what happened in the pacific north west when the radical movement held up the northern spotted owl and convinced Clinton to virtually shut down logging. A similar thing recently happened here on the pacific coast where the great white bear is the current poster boy. Fortunately the Sierra Club didn't get everything they wanted.

[crtreedude]

These people go running from me usually:

Question: How much have you PERSONALLY spent to protect rainforest (or whatever you are protesting)
Answer: I have protested...

My point - put your money where your mouth is.  >:( Buy the land and do whatever you want - after all, you paid for it. If you want to dedicated it to saving the spotted owl - go for it. But don't steal from others by using legislation. Many of the national parks were established with the idea of timber harvest. Don't change the rules.

Sustainable methods are a good idea - but please, let's not have the uninformed make environmental decisions based on emotions.

Oh, my answer to the above is more than 200,000 USD... Like I said - they normally don't like talking with me.

[Qweaver]

Even here in WV where logging, coal,gas and oil production are our life blood, there is a lot of opposition from mainly the un-informed.  But a lot of that comes from memories of past practices that did need to be changed and it was this same kind of opposition that helped bring about these changes.

I have several relatives that live in "town"(two miles away)  that are a little mad at me for cutting down my trees to build my cabin.  It's OK to buy the wood at Lowes...but don't cut those beautiful trees.  They'd also ban hunting of any kind and would never forgive me if I feed them anything that contained wild meat.  But these really are good people and I love them and they are just un-informed,  but a whole group of them organized into a common purpose can get laws passed.

We can not hunt or shoot a gun on Sunday in WV and many attempts to get that law repealed have failed due to folks like my relatives.

[MemphisLogger]

C'mon guys (and gals). He's not talking about ending logging on private lands or even state forest lands.  :P

He's talking about a State PARK.

Here in TN, commercial sales in Parks are illegal.

When we had to get several stands of invasive Paulownia out of the State Park near my house, a bunch of the operators contacted would only do it if they could take out a bunch of "incidental" White Oak and Walnut.

The State held firm against this and eventually a horse logger was found that would do the job for the Paulownia alone and do no damage to the remainder.

[Texas Ranger]

I bit my tongue and did not respond to the original poster on the biker web.  I was particularly amused with "we own the forest".  "We" being the people, yes, we being mountain bikers, no.  The better good forf the most people.  If it is a state park, or city, I would hope they are using best managment practices and have a reason for doing what they are doing, and knowing government, should have a checks and balance system.  The wirter  noted that the red pine was planted years ago and not native to the area, so the logging will basically return the stand to a more normal stocking for the area.

The problem here, and every where, is that humans think in terms of our life span, foresters think in terms of generations.  Also, the problem exists that what may fit on a management plan here, will not fit there, each area has different species and different requirments.  A wild shot of "Clear cutting our heritage" may not have any regional accuracy, Mass has been cut over and over again, what is there has obviously been planted, and can be replanted to a more acceptable species.  The writer spoke of "shoe string rot", a disease that I have never heard of in our area, so there is a local decision to be made as to how to handle it  But, any fungal disease that takes a foot hold in a stand needs to be addressed, and I doubt if it is "everywhere" as the writer noted.

In short, it is in Mass that the decision must be made, by foresters and biologists, not bikers.

[Frickman]

Along with what Cedarman said, I've found that I can't change someone's mind overnight. When I'm confronted with this situation I just mention one or two points supporting my side of the situation, and leave it at that. If they meet more folks like me down the line maybe we'll start to sway their opinion. As Jeff said, it's a waste of time to argue with them.

[Tom]

The important thing is to be sure that you don't make it a personal thing.  When trying to converse with some of these folks I've been called every name in the book and my family demeaned.  It's enough to make one do physical damage to the opponent if it weren't an anonymous venture.  The conversation will generally, soon, turn this way and you don't want anything in your posts that will make it look as if you were the one to initiate it.  Don't join into the name calling.  They live for angering you.

If you want to respond, do it from a well founded scientific standpoint.  Understand that Forestry includes esthetics as well as economics, Farming as well as logging, wildlife habitat as well log removal, fire fighting as well as fire setting, and a forester's goal is a healthy forest not the decimation of vegetation.

Don't get caught up in their arguments that loggers and Foresters destroy forests.  Barring the few bad apples that occur in every occupation, it isn't true.

Also take into consideration that all of their arguments may not be invalid.  Road builders in the search for a straight roadway, consider a tree as as something in the way.  Developers only inerested in maximizing homes per acre will bulldoze anything clean and level all hills.  It' simportant to keep this in the forefront and not let it be blamed on a person, a forester, who chose the protection, and health of a forest as his vocation.

Activist seem to only want to "stop" things and flooding the inbox of their representative in government is one of their first steps. 

[lumberjenny]

I'm sure he would'nt say a thing if they were cut down to build a bike shop or mall...

[crtreedude]

One thing that might appeal is to explain that just as Mountain Bikers should not all be considered destroyers of trails and spookers of children and other users of the parks - so he shouldn't think all people who participate in logging are destroyers of the environment.

Many, many parks are off limit to Mountain Bikers because of the bad behavior of a few. This is very sad - but so would banning all forestry activities because of abuse of a minority.

Intelligence allows us to descriminate between people who are ethical - and those that aren't. The lazy way is to just say all people of a certain race, ethnic background - or profession, are all the same.

He doesn't realize it - but he is a bigot.

Surprising, eh?

[lumberjenny]

Well spoken crtreedude smiley_clapping smiley_clapping

[Texas Ranger]

CR make a point that I passed up, many areas have been shut down to bikers because of the damage repeated runs make.  Trail bikes move soil as they run, and they are moving faster than a walker, usually.  Some of us, in our alternate life, believe in leaving nothing in the woods but our foot prints.  Hard to explain to some one stuck in their own world that a forester can cut his woods his, and leave nothing but foot prints over there.  It is a dicotomy that is common among professionals in the outdoors.

[caryr]

Tom, that is the same tactic I use and it has worked well. Even with Californian tree sitters!

Fred, You make a good point and given that he says he will introduce people to hidden trails. I wonder if he isn't also a threat.

The reply that was given to his initial post was ineffectual. The basis of a good reply would be to figure out what the real problem with the fungus is. If it is only killing the pines will it create a safety/maintenance problem in the future. If the clear-cutting is only the pines, is nature already heading in that direction. After the harvest are the roads going to be converted to new trails or are they going to be used as emergency access. A few conversations with the right people and a walk of the park to see what was marked should give someone all the information they need. And like Tom said earlier "Be prepared to agree with him on some points if they make sense". To me these type of conversations/investigations are more about showing/exposing the truth than trying to convert people to my personal view.

Cary

[Riles]

Well, I scored a 100 on my Pathology final exam yesterday, so assuming his diagnosis of shoestring root rot is correct, I feel qualified to post an internet link:

http://forestpathology.org/dis_arm.html

The pathogen is Armillaria spp. of fungus, the forestpathology website was actually used as the textbook in my class. A bit technical, but if you're so inclined, go back to the home page and start at the beginning. It only took me 12 weeks... ;D

[Cedarman]

Last summer we did almost a clear cut of 20 acres in the Chickasaw National Recreational Park in southern Oklahoma.  It was a dense stand of cedars with a few hardwoods mixed in, mostly ugly elm, post oak, persimmon and ash.  All cedars except a few large male trees and any hardwood 6" and under were cut.  The effect was dramatic.  It had a state road on one side, and a main entry to the park on the other.  So many thousands of people saw this. 

Before any cutting was done, the park service made numerous announcements as to what they were going to do and why they were doing it.  They did a lot of PR work.  It didn't hurt that most people in Ok hate cedars.  We were interviewed by local reporters during the grinding operation.

They had about 2 per cent negative feedback.  I attribute this to the great job the park service did in communication with the locals and the people who use the park.

So, I believe it can be made to work.

[Furby]

Well he posted his phone # in another post if anyone really wants to try and change his mind! ;D