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Attention Ford Guru's

Started by Quartlow, April 26, 2006, 06:55:12 PM

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Quartlow

Since I'm not getting any response on any of the Ford forums

I have a 93 F-250 with a blown 5.8 liter and automatic
I have a wrecked 86 F-150 with a 300 and a standard tranny in it. I pulled the 300 today and can see that it will bolt up to my F-250 tranny and the flywheel bolts line up But theres a weight on the 5.8 flywheel so I am assuming it is an externaly balanced engine. Is the 300 internaly balnced or external?

Can I remove the weight from the 5.8 flywheel and use it?

Budget is extrememly tight and I really need to get it running as I should be getting called back to work in the next two weeks or so.

If this was a chevy it wouldn't be an issue :) :)
Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

Gary_C

An engine must be balanced on its own without any help from the flywheel. Do not take the weight off the flywheel. 

I am surprised that a flywheel from a manual transmission would work in front of an automatic transmission as the flywheel is mainly to mount the clutch. Usually the automatic just has a flat plate that bolts up to the torque converter.

Maybe I misunderstand what you are doing but I cant see how a flywheel will work in front of an automatic transmission.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

WH_Conley

You will have to change the flywheels out, all the down to the crank shaft. Never saw a weight on the flywheel, always on the harmonic balancer.
Course wouldn't be the first time I got suprised either.
Bill

isawlogs

 I beleive he is talking about the ring gear on the 5.8 ... and the flywheel off the 300.
  What ever you do , dont take the weights off . They are there to balance the ring gear . 
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

ScottAR

The 300 six is internally balanced.  The 351 is externally balanced (28oz) imbalance.  They do not interchange.  About $80 bux for a new one for the 300. 

The bellhousing and everything else should be good.  Use the starter off the manual trans truck as they have a different nose than the autos. 
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

scsmith42

Quartlow, your question takes me back about twenty-five years to the days when I owned an automotive machine shop.  I built a lot of race engines, and provided engine balancing and blueprinting services for other shops in Central Texas.

If I understand your question correctly, you're talking about a 300 6 cylinder replacing a 351 windsor V8, right?

As I recall Ford 300 6 cylinder's are internally balanced.  You probably already know this, but just in case you don't if you use an externally balanced flywheel / flexplate on an internally balanced motor - or vice versa - you'll knock the mains and the transmission bearings out in short order.

Some enginer families are externally balanceed because the crankshaft dimensions are not adequate to add enough weight w/o using tungsten or another costly heavy metal.  They are generally not desireable for racing because there is an inherant dynamic instability on each end of the crank, and they tend to flex and/or crack at high RPM's.  My rusty memory tells me that on Ford's the small blocks are externally balanced, the inline 6 cylinders are internal, as are the big block's.

Theoretically, you should be able to reuse your 351 flywheel by removing the counterweight. I converted external balance flexplates to internal more than once in my machine shop, but I had the advantage of having a Stewart Warner engine balancer so I was able to get the flywheel dead on before using it.  I recall that the counterweight is spot-welded to the flexplate - the best way to remove it is to drill out the spot welds on the counterweight (NOT THE FLYWHEEL).  If you do this, be sure that you remove an absolute minimal amount of metal from the flexplate so you don't affect it's balance!  If you have access to any type of wheel balancer it would be a good idea to check the flexplate for static balance once you remove the counterweight.  You can use a bicycle wheel balancer in a pinch, or even an old "bubble balancer" for automotive wheels.

HOWEVER, before doing anything check to be sure that the ring gears on both flexplate and flywheel have the same number of teeth and DIAMETER, otherwise you're going to have starter problems.  300's were available in both 11" and 14" diameter versions.  Also, check the flywheel over carefully and make sure that you don't observe any type of boss cast into it on the crankshaft side.  If it's internally balanced, the flywheel casting will be consistent all the way around.

WH - flywheels on externally balanced motors usually have a boss cast into the flywheel.  It's on the crankshaft side and some of them are near the ring gear; I recall that most were closer in to the crank.

Good luck.  Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Mooseherder

Quartlow,
Your comment about chevy is so true. One Hot Rod I had was a 56 Chevy  265 V8 with Cast Iron Powerglide. The motor was strong the trans. wasn't
After rebuilding it and it not lasting very long., an uncle gave me a 1962 3 speed and I bought a 1972 Bell Housing and clutch out of an old pickup in a junkyard.  It all bolted up no problems. To finish it off, I needed a different length drive shaft which when measuring found this perfect length Ford driveshaft at the junkyard. Back then I guess the ford and chevy used the same yolks and rear joint links, because that fit like a glove also.  Not so anymore. :D

Quartlow

QuoteIf I understand your question correctly, you're talking about a 300 6 cylinder replacing a 351 windsor V8, right?

AS I understand it the 93 5.8 is the windsor

QuoteHOWEVER, before doing anything check to be sure that the ring gears on both flexplate and flywheel have the same number of teeth and DIAMETER, otherwise you're going to have starter problems.  300's were available in both 11" and 14" diameter versions.  Also, check the flywheel over carefully and make sure that you don't observe any type of boss cast into it on the crankshaft side.  If it's internally balanced, the flywheel casting will be consistent all the way around.

I actually had both the flywheel and the flexplate laying on top of each other to check and see if the teeth and the bolt holes lined up, they both do. I'll have to check the 300 flywheel but I do believe it was smooth on the back side. I understand what your saying about a boss being machined on it basicley making the flywheel so it balances the engine. I've seen it on other flywheels before.


Quote from: isawlogs on April 26, 2006, 07:26:46 PM
I beleive he is talking about the ring gear on the 5.8 ... and the flywheel off the 300.
What ever you do , dont take the weights off . They are there to balance the ring gear .

Wel I'm trying to educate myself on Ford here. On chevy, everything form the 232 six cyalnder to the small block 350 was internally balanced, the small block 400 was exteranly balanced, the reason I know this is I took a flexplate from a 350 and put it on my small block 400. twoo weeks and the front tranny seal was leaking like a sieve  ::) Hey I was young and dumb, now I'm older and still dumb  ;D


Quote from: Gary_C on April 26, 2006, 07:15:18 PM
An engine must be balanced on its own without any help from the flywheel. Do not take the weight off

Maybe I misunderstand what you are doing but I cant see how a flywheel will work in front of an automatic transmission.
I was comparing the flywheel to the flex plate. The flexplate is off of my 5.8 the flywheel is off of the 300

Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

scsmith42

You've got it figured out.  One clarification - generally the boss is "cast in" to the flywheel, rather than being "machined out".  Similar to the way that the boss is cast into the harmonic balancer.

Good luck.  Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Quartlow

Now I just have to go down and inspect them closer.

I think I'm going to take the belt off of the lthe and chuck them up and see if there is any heavy spots that want to go down
Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

scsmith42

Good concept.  Good luck.  Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Quartlow

Ok problem solved.
Step one
mount the 300 flywheel in the lathe and spin it up. I figure I had it going 2000 rpm's and no vibration, it did take it a while to stop though.

Step two
Put the 5.8 flexplate in the lathe, nasty vibration at less than 1000 rpms

Step 3
remove the weight from the flex plate. put it back in the lathe.
3600 rpms an as smooth as a swiss watch. Well maybe not a swiss watch but as smooth as a timex which is close enough in my book

Tomorrow we drag the 250 out of the weeds and start reviving it
Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

Gary_C

Did you have the torque converter bolted to the flex plate when you had it spinning? It may be  balanced together, but then the converter could only be bolted on one way?  ???
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

ScottAR

To my knowledge, only Dodge balances the converter on the flexplate.  In american makes anyways... 

Never seen a ford with a flexplate/converter combo. 

Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

scsmith42

Good comments re the converters. 

ScottAR is correct though - Ford converters are balanced to themselves - not the rotating assembly.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Quartlow

Quote from: Gary_C on April 27, 2006, 12:32:05 AM
Did you have the torque converter bolted to the flex plate when you had it spinning? It may be  balanced together, but then the converter could only be bolted on one way?  ???

No I didn't Gary, But before I put it together I willl check and make sure it can be bolted to the flexplate in more than one position.

I think SottAR is right though, on the few Dodges I have worked on you had to make sure you got it right or all the bolts wouldn't line up.

This is what I like about this place, you can ask just about any question and at least one person either knows the answer or knows where to get it. And at lest 2 or 3 other people will chime in with questions that the origanal poster didn't think of that brings up more good info.


Breezewood 24 inch mill
Have a wooderful day!!

flip

Take the 300 and man trans out of the 86 and put it in the 93.  The trans in the 93 will not shift right with the 300 on it (that is unless it is a C-6 and not an E4OD).  Don't wast your time, the electronics and sensors off the old engine will not work on the 300 so the computer will not get the right info. for the trans to shift.  Just swap the 300 with it's trans and junk the 5.8 and it's trans.  If you lift the carpet on the floor you will see the punch out plate where the shifter will come through.  Of course you will have to swap over the brake/clutch pedal assembly and the clutch master cylinder and line, those holes are there too.

Flip
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

ScottAR

I'd only swap the manual if the F150 had the optional ZF trans.  The mazda made manuals just make you wish you had a transmission... 
The way to tell besides the tag is the reinforcment ribs on the case make squares on the ZF.
They make X's on the mazda.   The mazdas are frail and not geared low enough.
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

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